Discussion
Grumfutock said:
SIR, YES SIR!!!!
S T O P T H E T E R R O R I S M A N D I T E N D S!
Is that loud enough and slow enough for you?
I'm not deaf. But what ends, exactly? Bibi and his gang have already ruled out anything worth having. (He's ruled out a 2 state solution, Livni has ruled out a 2 state solution where Palestine has sovereignty.) S T O P T H E T E R R O R I S M A N D I T E N D S!
Is that loud enough and slow enough for you?
What's currently on the table (although it isn't formally) is live on your knees or die standing while hurting your enemy. At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it's seen.
TheRealFingers99 said:
I'm not deaf. But what ends, exactly? Bibi and his gang have already ruled out anything worth having. (He's ruled out a 2 state solution, Livni has ruled out a 2 state solution where Palestine has sovereignty.)
What's currently on the table (although it isn't formally) is live on your knees or die standing while hurting your enemy. At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it's seen.
Stop bombing, stop rockets, stop mortars, stop tunnels, stop knife attacks, stop shooting, stop driving cars at babies, stop suicide missions, stop terrorism and admit Israel has the right to exist!What's currently on the table (although it isn't formally) is live on your knees or die standing while hurting your enemy. At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it's seen.
Then, maybe, and after a suitable length of time to show it is for real, Israel may talk to them. Until that point we do not know what is on the table but just as you and your hug a hoody brigade demand that Israel stop all of it's "crimes", Israel is equally as intransigent that they will keep doing what they are doing until the terrorism stops. It isn't complicated.
Grumfutock said:
Stop bombing, stop rockets, stop mortars, stop tunnels, stop knife attacks, stop shooting, stop driving cars at babies, stop suicide missions, stop terrorism and admit Israel has the right to exist!
Then, maybe, and after a suitable length of time to show it is for real, Israel may talk to them. Until that point we do not know what is on the table but just as you and your hug a hoody brigade demand that Israel stop all of it's "crimes", Israel is equally as intransigent that they will keep doing what they are doing until the terrorism stops. It isn't complicated.
Shin Bet are talking to Hamas every week -- possibly every day. If they were not they'd be as incompetent as Mossad. Then, maybe, and after a suitable length of time to show it is for real, Israel may talk to them. Until that point we do not know what is on the table but just as you and your hug a hoody brigade demand that Israel stop all of it's "crimes", Israel is equally as intransigent that they will keep doing what they are doing until the terrorism stops. It isn't complicated.
I'd remind you that you're the one who says Israel has all the cards. It also has a unified chain of command, as I pointed out earlier. On the face of it, it should make a move: it has more moves available, can implement them quickly, will receive a pat on the back from the Americans, etc.
Hamas campaigned on the basis of an independent state with Jerusalem as its capital, and the right of return for refugees.
This is worth reading: http://peter-beinart.com/israel/haaretz-what-ameri...
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
I'm not deaf. But what ends, exactly? Bibi and his gang have already ruled out anything worth having. (He's ruled out a 2 state solution, Livni has ruled out a 2 state solution where Palestine has sovereignty.)
What's currently on the table (although it isn't formally) is live on your knees or die standing while hurting your enemy. At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it's seen.
Stop bombing, stop rockets, stop mortars, stop tunnels, stop knife attacks, stop shooting, stop driving cars at babies, stop suicide missions, stop terrorism and admit Israel has the right to exist!What's currently on the table (although it isn't formally) is live on your knees or die standing while hurting your enemy. At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it's seen.
Then, maybe, and after a suitable length of time to show it is for real, Israel may talk to them. .
But no, you think that, the Palestinians should simply accept what is happening to them and, once they have given up everything, then Israel may, just may, completely change their minds.
I doubt you could be any more blinkered.
Grumfutock said:
Yea peace baby, like, lets just love each other.
Well, loving each other is surely a laudable aim, or will you only be happy when the world is covered by a nuclear winter? 
A few peaceniks on a Daesh (hoodie?) tank which they captured.
The Israelis like the Kurds, one suspects because they see their struggle as in some way legitimising their own. But. look Ma, and MashaAllah! no ethnic cleansing. The constitutions of the Rojava cantons are probably the most democratic and inclusive (regardless of race, religion, ethnicity and sex) on the planet.
Countdown said:
Your ostrich impression is incredible. The pre-requisites you demand of the Palestinians have already been complied with to varying degrees in the West Bank. And it helped Fatah achieve the sum of absolutely nothing. The latest upsurge in violence is due to the fact that Israel has continued to seize land as well as putting restrictions on access to the Al Aqsa mosque. Even leaving that aside, senior Israeli politicians have openly admitted that they will never allow the Palestnians to have their own State.
But no, you think that, the Palestinians should simply accept what is happening to them and, once they have given up everything, then Israel may, just may, completely change their minds.
I doubt you could be any more blinkered.
And I think your blind. But no, you think that, the Palestinians should simply accept what is happening to them and, once they have given up everything, then Israel may, just may, completely change their minds.
I doubt you could be any more blinkered.
"The pre-requisites you demand of the Palestinians have already been complied with to varying degrees in the West Bank." Well that isn't complying then is it! £10 is £10, £7 is not £10! And the West Bank isn't Palestine.
And yes I do think they should simply accept what is happening. They made the bed with 60 year of warfare, they must now lay in it! Maybe they should look more towards the Arab friends who caused the trouble in the first place but then refused to let them live peacefully. Should Israel be punished for defeating the Arab aggression?
TheRealFingers99 said:
Well, loving each other is surely a laudable aim, or will you only be happy when the world is covered by a nuclear winter?
A few peaceniks on a Daesh (hoodie?) tank which they captured.
The Israelis like the Kurds, one suspects because they see their struggle as in some way legitimising their own. But. look Ma, and MashaAllah! no ethnic cleansing. The constitutions of the Rojava cantons are probably the most democratic and inclusive (regardless of race, religion, ethnicity and sex) on the planet.
Yes because that cunning plan has worked really well everywhere else hasn't it. You may not like it but the simple fact is that humans are different. We are in different religions, tribes, ethnic groups etc and we don't mix well. We are not very good at integration and the end result is one group seeking to become dominant ie war.A few peaceniks on a Daesh (hoodie?) tank which they captured.
The Israelis like the Kurds, one suspects because they see their struggle as in some way legitimising their own. But. look Ma, and MashaAllah! no ethnic cleansing. The constitutions of the Rojava cantons are probably the most democratic and inclusive (regardless of race, religion, ethnicity and sex) on the planet.
Grumfutock said:
And I think your blind.
"The pre-requisites you demand of the Palestinians have already been complied with to varying degrees in the West Bank." Well that isn't complying then is it! £10 is £10, £7 is not £10! And the West Bank isn't Palestine.
And yes I do think they should simply accept what is happening. They made the bed with 60 year of warfare, they must now lay in it! Maybe they should look more towards the Arab friends who caused the trouble in the first place but then refused to let them live peacefully. Should Israel be punished for defeating the Arab aggression?
Do you think the Palestinians should just accept being shot and killed? Somebody keeps stealing bits of your house and shooting your family I'm sure you'd accept that it wasn't "their" fault because of something that happened 60 years ago. And instead of asking them to stop you'd simply move into your neighbour's house?"The pre-requisites you demand of the Palestinians have already been complied with to varying degrees in the West Bank." Well that isn't complying then is it! £10 is £10, £7 is not £10! And the West Bank isn't Palestine.
And yes I do think they should simply accept what is happening. They made the bed with 60 year of warfare, they must now lay in it! Maybe they should look more towards the Arab friends who caused the trouble in the first place but then refused to let them live peacefully. Should Israel be punished for defeating the Arab aggression?
Of course you would
Grumfutock said:
Yes because that cunning plan has worked really well everywhere else hasn't it. You may not like it but the simple fact is that humans are different. We are in different religions, tribes, ethnic groups etc and we don't mix well. We are not very good at integration and the end result is one group seeking to become dominant ie war.
Seems to be working just fine in the Rojava: Free Syrian Army (Arabs, Muslims, men and women), Peshmerga (Kurds, mainly Muslim), YPG/YPJ (Kurds, male and female, mainly Muslim with a few Syriac Christians and Yezidi), AUP and AWU (Assyrian Christians) all fighting alongside each other to beat the carp out of Daesh. My experience is that given equality, people mix pretty well. Chuck one group's 19C nationalist "solution" at a mixed group and you've got a recipe for conflict.
BTW, can you identify the tank? Looks relatively recent Iron Curtain stuff to me.
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 14th November 08:10
Countdown said:
Do you think the Palestinians should just accept being shot and killed? Somebody keeps stealing bits of your house and shooting your family I'm sure you'd accept that it wasn't "their" fault because of something that happened 60 years ago. And instead of asking them to stop you'd simply move into your neighbour's house?
Of course you would
No, I think they should stop rioting and killing Israeli's. Of course you would
60 years ago???? Hmmmm Yom Kippur wasn't 60 years ago? South Lebanon wasn't 60 years ago? 1st & 2nd intifada weren't 60 years ago?
You can prattle on about houses and all the rest, blah, blah, blah, but I firmly believe that you do not compromise with terrorist, you don't not talk to terrorist but you do attain peace through politics and the ballot box.
Grumfutock said:
You can prattle on about houses and all the rest, blah, blah, blah, but I firmly believe that you do not compromise with terrorist, you don't not talk to terrorist but you do attain peace through politics and the ballot box.
Hang on a minute. The Brits and the UN compromised with the Israeli terrorists.The Brits talked to the IRA.
The Israelis talk to Hamas and Fatah.
The only solution of a "terrorist" issue I can think of which was not achieved by talks was Sri Lanka where the rebel leader pretty much suicided everyone.
Mermaid said:
So how much aid does the rich Muslim world give to the Palestinians?
GOK. They gave a hell of a lot to the PLO, I mean, a hell of a lot. I suspect a fair bit still goes into Red Crescent, Medicin Sans Frontiers, the NGOs.Now the issue would pretty much be how to get aid/money (etc.) in to them. Within Israel it would be exceptionally difficult -- Israel commands all the borders, has checkpoints everywhere, most/all(?) of the tunnels are closed.
It would -- perhaps -- be possible to get aid to the camps. This would mean dealing with the governments of Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, possibly with Hezbollah. But in Lebanon (and possibly in Jordan) the Palestinians are not the biggest refugee/aid issue. Didn't I read that 1 in 3 of the people in Lebanon at the moment is a Syrian refugee?
The Hezbollah/Hamas political model (but this isn't to suggest they're the best of buddies!) originally was that of a political organisation with a big mutual aid/social development component. IIRC it's a model that was shared by the Baathists in Iraq (at least, in the early days).
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 14th November 18:53
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
You can prattle on about houses and all the rest, blah, blah, blah, but I firmly believe that you do not compromise with terrorist, you don't not talk to terrorist but you do attain peace through politics and the ballot box.
Hang on a minute. The Brits and the UN compromised with the Israeli terrorists.The Brits talked to the IRA.
The Israelis talk to Hamas and Fatah.
The only solution of a "terrorist" issue I can think of which was not achieved by talks was Sri Lanka where the rebel leader pretty much suicided everyone.
1. Negotiate, agreement and ultimately power share of some sort.
2. Genocide. Ensure there is no one willing or able to fight.
Israel needs to chose their route.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
There only two routes to stop an insurgency, which is ultimately to get the aggrieved group to stop wanting or able to kill or disrupt.
1. Negotiate, agreement and ultimately power share of some sort.
2. Genocide. Ensure there is no one willing or able to fight.
Israel needs to chose their route.
Don't simplify things like that... You will either be completely ignored or ridiculed for trying to force Israel to negotiate with blood thirsty terrorists who won't stop until Israel ceases to exist!1. Negotiate, agreement and ultimately power share of some sort.
2. Genocide. Ensure there is no one willing or able to fight.
Israel needs to chose their route.
Or have I got that the wrong way around?
Ps - I agree with you. It is time for people to be honest and vocal about their true intentions and what, if any compromise they will countenance!
Slaav said:
It is time for people to be honest and vocal about their true intentions and what, if any compromise they will countenance!
Dunno whether you're talking of people here, or there! It occurred to me that some degree of political re-education is required. On both sides.
This can probably best be accomplished with small groups of Israelis and Palestinians meeting. Discussing their experiences. [First contention -- both sides are human, both sides need to discover the other's humanity.]
The Israelis should learn about the Nakba, the Palestinians about the Shoah. They should talk to each other about both, spend some social time together cooking, playing football, knitting, whatever. [Learn each other's history, experiences. Further appreciate each other.]
Hopefully they'll start to ask -- having seen each other as people -- how did we get into this mess? Why is this beautiful land full of settlements that look as though they've been thrown up by Bovis on a bad day, and all these walls? What can we do to solve it? Can we abandon petty nationalism and actually share a space? (Hey, we just have! We are!)
The next part to follow.
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