The Duggan Gun?
Discussion
s3fella said:
But would you agree that there should be little doubt in one's memory as to whether someone was holding a gun or not, at the moment a trained officer (not MOP) opened fire? I can understand said officer's memory being clouded regarding other minor matters, but if it is clouded over such an important decision moment, one should question whether he should be doing what he is doing.
The issue with Duggan is we don't actually know what exactly happened to use as an objective reference point. When was the last point he was in possession of the gun relative to the officer's positions etc? It's worth noting the IPCC's most plausible explanation:
IPCC said:
The most plausible explanation for the location of the firearm, JMA/1, is that Mr Duggan was in the process of throwing the firearm, JMA/1, to his right as he was shot.
It seems likely the officers have seen him in possession of the firearm and also his arm movements to discard it. The exact way that's played out in the officer's mind at the time in terms of assessing and threat and how the memories have been 'written' may not exactly be how the events actually played out. We're talking less than a few seconds for someone to exit a vehicle that has been rapidly stopped, get out, observe, assess and make a decision. Duggan being in possession of the firearm immediately prior or at the time, and making movements to discard the firearm, were extremely high risk on his part.
gooner1 said:
La Liga said:
ntelligence sources. Very accurate ones as it turns out.
Here's a light read if you want to learn about the matter: https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Docume...
Here's a light read if you want to learn about the matter: https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Docume...
Many thank's for providing the above.
Do even the stupidest of criminals not know that if they present and discharge a gun whilst surrounded by armed police the next thing that is going to happen is that they are going to die?
Did the profiling intel suggest that Duggan was suicidal? I'd have thought quite the opposite. In which case it was highly unlikely he would be up for a shootout with armed cops.
Did the profiling intel suggest that Duggan was suicidal? I'd have thought quite the opposite. In which case it was highly unlikely he would be up for a shootout with armed cops.
Oakey said:
drainbrain said:
Did the profiling intel suggest that Duggan was suicidal? I'd have thought quite the opposite. In which case it was highly unlikely he would be up for a shootout with armed cops.
Well the police seem to think their organisation is pretty serious
Like height and weight?
I'll guess he's 6 foot tall and 13.5 stone.
How do you recognise him from that photo without being in shooting range?
Does he helpfully walk around in a Track Suit with his name embroidered on the back?
Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 6th December 17:53
carinaman said:
Is there a bit more to that?
Like height and weight?
I'll guess he's 6 foot tall and 13.5 stone.
How do you recognise him from that photo without being in shooting range?
Does he helpfully walk around in a Track Suit with his name embroidered on the back?
The article is here, you'll love it, it's got cover ups and corruption and everythingLike height and weight?
I'll guess he's 6 foot tall and 13.5 stone.
How do you recognise him from that photo without being in shooting range?
Does he helpfully walk around in a Track Suit with his name embroidered on the back?
Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 6th December 17:53
http://www.spinwatch.org/index.php/issues/spying/i...
s3fella said:
But that isn't what I was asking. Officer said he was holding the gun, hence he fired. If there is any confusion in his mind on the first bit, should be doing the second bit? Bearing in mind that's why the officer fired.
Had the officer said, we knew he had a gun on him, so I got a shot in first, then your point and opinion would tie into that. And i'd not say I necessarily disagree with you!
But if he HAD said that, what would have happened? Is that cause enough to shoot him? (I don't know but suspect not).
The fact the gun ended up where it did suggests it was not where the officer said it was when he shot. La Liga says that is because his memory may be wrong. But it is fairly fundamental, isn't it?
I could not care less. If there is a gun in that car then a line has been crossed, their lives are in danger and rightly so.Had the officer said, we knew he had a gun on him, so I got a shot in first, then your point and opinion would tie into that. And i'd not say I necessarily disagree with you!
But if he HAD said that, what would have happened? Is that cause enough to shoot him? (I don't know but suspect not).
The fact the gun ended up where it did suggests it was not where the officer said it was when he shot. La Liga says that is because his memory may be wrong. But it is fairly fundamental, isn't it?
I mean this is really easy, isn't it? Isn't there enough crime out there for them to get involved in without guns? This country should steadfastly stick to a hard line on guns, otherwise the situation gets worse and more innocent people suffer, and that's *all* that happens.
Oakey said:
The article is here, you'll love it, it's got cover ups and corruption and everything
http://www.spinwatch.org/index.php/issues/spying/i...
Thanks. Gillard's book The Untouchables was quite a read. The bit about the officer with the gunpowder speck on Barry George's jacket was involved in a similar incident involving Ira Thomas. He got out too.http://www.spinwatch.org/index.php/issues/spying/i...
Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 6th December 18:56
Oakey said:
The article is here, you'll love it, it's got cover ups and corruption and everything
http://www.spinwatch.org/index.php/issues/spying/i...
Having read Clive Driscoll's book it's disappointing to learn of another case of a Council interfering in another investigation. Such impropriety doesn't seem very fair to those that sign up or volunteer to fight the good fight. Risking leaving a kid(s) without a parent to be a bit part player in someone's little empire of dodgy dealings. It's depressing.http://www.spinwatch.org/index.php/issues/spying/i...
At least Driscoll got two for Stephen Lawrence. And the Judge said 'Now get the others'.
drainbrain said:
heebeegeetee said:
I could not care less. If there is a gun in that car then a line has been crossed, their lives are in danger and rightly so.
Are you saying that known criminals known to be carrying guns should be exterminated by armed police? I think hee bee gee tee is just recommending shooting them - I'm kinda OK with that
B'stard Child said:
drainbrain said:
heebeegeetee said:
I could not care less. If there is a gun in that car then a line has been crossed, their lives are in danger and rightly so.
Are you saying that known criminals known to be carrying guns should be exterminated by armed police? I think hee bee gee tee is just recommending shooting them - I'm kinda OK with that
drainbrain said:
B'stard Child said:
drainbrain said:
heebeegeetee said:
I could not care less. If there is a gun in that car then a line has been crossed, their lives are in danger and rightly so.
Are you saying that known criminals known to be carrying guns should be exterminated by armed police? I think hee bee gee tee is just recommending shooting them - I'm kinda OK with that
drainbrain said:
B'stard Child said:
Do they all have guns??? Because if they do the gun problems in this country are a lot worse than I thought
What about people carrying something in a poly bag that 'looks uncannily like a gun' (whatever THAT means). Shoot them too?B'stard Child said:
drainbrain said:
B'stard Child said:
Do they all have guns??? Because if they do the gun problems in this country are a lot worse than I thought
What about people carrying something in a poly bag that 'looks uncannily like a gun' (whatever THAT means). Shoot them too?Wouldn't Da Gangsta just swap the poly for a Bag for Life. Sorted
gooner1 said:
B'stard Child said:
drainbrain said:
B'stard Child said:
Do they all have guns??? Because if they do the gun problems in this country are a lot worse than I thought
What about people carrying something in a poly bag that 'looks uncannily like a gun' (whatever THAT means). Shoot them too?Wouldn't Da Gangsta just swap the poly for a Bag for Life. Sorted
Not sure why drainbrain didn't think of that? - Pretty silly to carry around something that could be confused with a gun in a clear poly bag.....
B'stard Child said:
Perfect - then you couldn't see anything that "looks uncannily like a gun" and the Paedos, Rapists and Tax evaders wouldn't have to worry about being shot
Not sure why drainbrain didn't think of that? - Pretty silly to carry around something that could be confused with a gun in a clear poly bag.....
As I recall the chap the cops shot dead was carrying his "gun" (aka a table leg in reality) in a blue poly bag. Maybe a clear one would have saved his life. Not sure why drainbrain didn't think of that? - Pretty silly to carry around something that could be confused with a gun in a clear poly bag.....
Anyway, I never quite got the answer as to where the "shoot-em-down" line gets drawn, or is it just crims carrying guns or being in vehicles in which there's a gun who're for the death sentence?
drainbrain said:
B'stard Child said:
Perfect - then you couldn't see anything that "looks uncannily like a gun" and the Paedos, Rapists and Tax evaders wouldn't have to worry about being shot
Not sure why drainbrain didn't think of that? - Pretty silly to carry around something that could be confused with a gun in a clear poly bag.....
As I recall the chap the cops shot dead was carrying his "gun" (aka a table leg in reality) in a blue poly bag. Maybe a clear one would have saved his life. Not sure why drainbrain didn't think of that? - Pretty silly to carry around something that could be confused with a gun in a clear poly bag.....
Anyway, I never quite got the answer as to where the "shoot-em-down" line gets drawn, or is it just crims carrying guns or being in vehicles in which there's a gun who're for the death sentence?
You then suggested Paedos, Rapists and Tax evaders should also be shot
Now you clearly hold radical ideas - I've no wish to be on you bad side (I might get shot) so adopted the std response of agreeing with you.... clearly that's not working so well as you seem to be upping the ante to death sentences
Clearly you need to get help
B'stard Child said:
drainbrain said:
heebeegeetee said:
I could not care less. If there is a gun in that car then a line has been crossed, their lives are in danger and rightly so.
Are you saying that known criminals known to be carrying guns should be exterminated by armed police? I think hee bee gee tee is just recommending shooting them - I'm kinda OK with that
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