Article 50 ruling due now
Discussion
One of the few politicians to really make my blood boil.Elysium said:
The lords are not meant to be apolitical. They are intended as seasoned politicians who have proven themselves as valuable decision makers over many years and whose judgement is unlikely to be swayed by the cut and thrust of current party politics.
At this point, there is no effective opposition to Brexit. The article 50 bill will be passed, but before this happens, the Lords will hopefully identify some important matters that the commons might have overlooked in it's haste to capitulate to the political mood.
It is very easy to destroy things and very difficult to build them. The role of the Lords has been built over several hundred years. Our democracy is a finely balanced and quite clever process that has evolved and survived the test of time. I see the opportunity for significant negative unintended consequences if it is removed.
Having seen the situation in the US, where the electoral college system has allowed the selection of a president who received less support from the electorate than the opposition, I would suggest that our system is flawed, but considerably less flawed than the alternatives.
"The lords are not meant to be apolitical. They are intended as seasoned politicians who have proven themselves as valuable decision makers over many years and whose judgement is unlikely to be swayed by the cut and thrust of current party politics".At this point, there is no effective opposition to Brexit. The article 50 bill will be passed, but before this happens, the Lords will hopefully identify some important matters that the commons might have overlooked in it's haste to capitulate to the political mood.
It is very easy to destroy things and very difficult to build them. The role of the Lords has been built over several hundred years. Our democracy is a finely balanced and quite clever process that has evolved and survived the test of time. I see the opportunity for significant negative unintended consequences if it is removed.
Having seen the situation in the US, where the electoral college system has allowed the selection of a president who received less support from the electorate than the opposition, I would suggest that our system is flawed, but considerably less flawed than the alternatives.
There are far too many ex-MP's who have proven themselves to be seriously lacking in the qualities you mention, and whose judgement is extremely likely to be swayed by their (still) masters in HoC.
"At this point, there is no effective opposition to Brexit. The article 50 bill will be passed, but before this happens, the Lords will hopefully identify some important matters that the commons might have overlooked in it's haste to capitulate to the political mood".
They had the chance to do as you suggest and proposed nothing that the HoC had overlooked, or was new. They re-attached two items that had already been lost by a huge majority.
"It is very easy to destroy things and very difficult to build them. The role of the Lords has been built over several hundred years. Our democracy is a finely balanced and quite clever process that has evolved and survived the test of time. I see the opportunity for significant negative unintended consequences if it is removed".
The Role of the HoL has been bastardised over recent years by political appointees whose sole purpose is to obfuscate and place obstacles in the path of settled decisions. Many of these people are expert in nothing and gobby in everything and are there through preference for political favours. The rudeness, booing and sheer bad manners on display during their Lordships' debate was evidence of the plummeting quality and purpose that brings the place into disrepute and is worse than the bear garden in the HoC. They are their own worst enemy and have given ample demonstration of their unsuitability. Democracy? They are even less democratic than the EU!
Exoticaholic said:
1000hrs and already a bit over 58,000 signatures.
And 2 months before the deadline. It will be interesting to see how many people signed up to this once the deadline has lapsed. The HoC stuffed full of cronies, failed politicians and convicted criminals needs a complete overhaul or demise.
kinda funny how much is being made of this.And 2 months before the deadline. It will be interesting to see how many people signed up to this once the deadline has lapsed. The HoC stuffed full of cronies, failed politicians and convicted criminals needs a complete overhaul or demise.
over 3million signed the petition to have another referendum within a couple of days of the of the result being announced, and that was quickly ignored. there are about as many sigs on the HOL petition as there was removed from the referendum petition.
drop in the ocean in terms of numbers.
They'll be a response from the gov. "we see your petition, and nowt will change"
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/170686
75,000
I am quite sure that these petitions would only ever encourage a government to do what it already wanted to do, but...
75,000
I am quite sure that these petitions would only ever encourage a government to do what it already wanted to do, but...
grumbledoak said:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/170686
75,000
I am quite sure that these petitions would only ever encourage a government to do what it already wanted to do, but...
If you have signed it, you will receive an nice email to explain why you are wrong.75,000
I am quite sure that these petitions would only ever encourage a government to do what it already wanted to do, but...
Elysium said:
The lords are not meant to be apolitical. They are intended as seasoned politicians who have proven themselves as valuable decision makers over many years and whose judgement is unlikely to be swayed by the cut and thrust of current party politics.
At this point, there is no effective opposition to Brexit. The article 50 bill will be passed, but before this happens, the Lords will hopefully identify some important matters that the commons might have overlooked in it's haste to capitulate to the political mood.
It is very easy to destroy things and very difficult to build them. The role of the Lords has been built over several hundred years. Our democracy is a finely balanced and quite clever process that has evolved and survived the test of time. I see the opportunity for significant negative unintended consequences if it is removed.
Having seen the situation in the US, where the electoral college system has allowed the selection of a president who received less support from the electorate than the opposition, I would suggest that our system is flawed, but considerably less flawed than the alternatives.
The HoL can be anything that the people consider to be a better form of governance. Politicians don't know better than the people.At this point, there is no effective opposition to Brexit. The article 50 bill will be passed, but before this happens, the Lords will hopefully identify some important matters that the commons might have overlooked in it's haste to capitulate to the political mood.
It is very easy to destroy things and very difficult to build them. The role of the Lords has been built over several hundred years. Our democracy is a finely balanced and quite clever process that has evolved and survived the test of time. I see the opportunity for significant negative unintended consequences if it is removed.
Having seen the situation in the US, where the electoral college system has allowed the selection of a president who received less support from the electorate than the opposition, I would suggest that our system is flawed, but considerably less flawed than the alternatives.
After all they're just people, albeit a self-selecting pool of self-serving types at the candidacy stage. Nothing changes for the better later on.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/170686
Nearly there.
Without help from the press or it seems anywhere (I've only seen it mentioned on here).
Will any Sunday papers mention it?
Nearly there.
Without help from the press or it seems anywhere (I've only seen it mentioned on here).
Will any Sunday papers mention it?
Cross-party Commons Exiting the EU Committee backs the House of Lords.
http://news.sky.com/story/pm-under-pressure-on-thr...
http://news.sky.com/story/pm-under-pressure-on-thr...
The report backs it, the members don't really and several said so.
They just wanted to get the report out the door so chucked in some agreeable words to satisfy certain committee members.
I had a good laugh at Peston this morning on this subject, arguing we should have the legislation to let EU nationals stay, then saying the position of UK nationals in the EU had nothing to do with it, then complaining we shouldn't use people as a bargaining chip, then saying it was a useless point to bargain from as we'd never throw people out anyway. So if that's true we don't need to guarantee them anything do we?! t
t.
They just wanted to get the report out the door so chucked in some agreeable words to satisfy certain committee members.
I had a good laugh at Peston this morning on this subject, arguing we should have the legislation to let EU nationals stay, then saying the position of UK nationals in the EU had nothing to do with it, then complaining we shouldn't use people as a bargaining chip, then saying it was a useless point to bargain from as we'd never throw people out anyway. So if that's true we don't need to guarantee them anything do we?! t
t. PurpleMoonlight said:
Cross-party Commons Exiting the EU Committee backs the House of Lords.
http://news.sky.com/story/pm-under-pressure-on-thr...
Yet again the people in power are out of touch, putting foreign people living in the UK before British people living abroad, what happens if this take place and say Spain decided not to reciprocate, what's the plan then ? What is wrong with waiting till the negotiations start, nothing has changed so what's the rush ?http://news.sky.com/story/pm-under-pressure-on-thr...
PRTVR said:
Yet again the people in power are out of touch, putting foreign people living in the UK before British people living abroad, what happens if this take place and say Spain decided not to reciprocate, what's the plan then ? What is wrong with waiting till the negotiations start, nothing has changed so what's the rush ?
Because it's unfair to play chicken with peoples lives?We can't control what the other EU countries will do, but we can control what the UK does.
PurpleMoonlight said:
PRTVR said:
Yet again the people in power are out of touch, putting foreign people living in the UK before British people living abroad, what happens if this take place and say Spain decided not to reciprocate, what's the plan then ? What is wrong with waiting till the negotiations start, nothing has changed so what's the rush ?
Because it's unfair to play chicken with peoples lives?We can't control what the other EU countries will do, but we can control what the UK does.
PurpleMoonlight said:
PRTVR said:
Yet again the people in power are out of touch, putting foreign people living in the UK before British people living abroad, what happens if this take place and say Spain decided not to reciprocate, what's the plan then ? What is wrong with waiting till the negotiations start, nothing has changed so what's the rush ?
Because it's unfair to play chicken with peoples lives?We can't control what the other EU countries will do, but we can control what the UK does.
May has been unequivocal since taking her position as PM, EU nationals were/will be allowed to remain after A50, their status and security in the UK was never at threat, to suggest otherwise is another project fear tactic.
People need to look to Merkel and the EU for the current situation, it's her and they who have stated they won't negotiate pre A50 and refuse to agree to a reciprocal agreement.
The amendment proposed is nothing other than a delaying tactic,and by people who have little to no concern over the status and security of UK nationals.
The amendment needs kicking into touch, or amended to include a condition guaranteeing the EU agree a reciprocal agreement as soon as A50 is triggered.
PurpleMoonlight said:
PRTVR said:
Yet again the people in power are out of touch, putting foreign people living in the UK before British people living abroad, what happens if this take place and say Spain decided not to reciprocate, what's the plan then ? What is wrong with waiting till the negotiations start, nothing has changed so what's the rush ?
Because it's unfair to play chicken with peoples lives?When EU nationals decided to relocate to the UK for work, if they never thought for a moment that the UK would ever leave the EU then they must have been avoiding TV coverage of UK-EU relations and public sentiment, related newspaper articles and widespread online comment for many years.
Therefore in reality, anyone taking steps such as living and working in the UK was aware of the risk, and they took the risk. Now that the risk is more evident, it was still their decision to take the risk.
Nobody is playing chicken; politicians are negotiating exit terms.
Jonesy23 said:
I had a good laugh at Peston ... then complaining we shouldn't use people as a bargaining chip...
I keep hearing this but I don't buy that first seeking agreement(s) that our own nationals living abroad won't be used as a bargaining chip is bargaining with EU nationals here. We're not exactly trading them for tariffs.PurpleMoonlight said:
Because it's unfair to play chicken with peoples lives?
We can't control what the other EU countries will do, but we can control what the UK does.
Thing is going into negotiations already committed to this when they refuse to make such a commitment actually makes it more likely that the EU will use this as a bargaining chip. By keeping that option open we would very quickly be able to offer a straight reciprocal deal on not disrupting the lives of people already living elsewhere. If we are already committed while they are not they have very incentive extract further concessions elsewhere to keep our citizens living there.We can't control what the other EU countries will do, but we can control what the UK does.
As I understand it the British government wanted to do this early on but the EU refused.
If push came to shove I would still like to see Britain choose not to make life difficult for EU citizens settled here even if the EU chose to target British citizens living there, but to go into negotiations with a major potential bargaining chip off the table is just stupid.
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