Junior Doctor's contracts petition

[Dixy]

TankRizzo said:

But I thought it wasn't about the money?

It is not but for the terminally slow I tried one thing at a time, for other points see Spaximus above or even read the contract like all the JDs have done. But if you believe hunt its the wicked union leading like sheep.

[Dixy]

I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed.

Worth remembering that it was not the JDs who opened this can of worms.

[Dixy]

Mr GrimNasty said:

Of course it is about self-interest, don't believe the carefully constructed propaganda about protecting the health service or the patients.

Youngsters today have no commitment or backbone and only care about what's in it for them.

Spoke to my Daughter yesterday evening. On Saturday she started at 8am, during the afternoon they were contacted by a smaller A&E who wanted to refer a non urgent patient to them. She was due to finish at 8pm, at 8.30 the patient arrived, But on a quick examination was found to be critical. Reg was contacted as it was out of my daughters depth but she stayed because the reg needed an assistant in theater. They worked there until 11.30 pm where they not only saved the persons life but also the limb.
Both are Junior Doctors, both should have left "work" at 8pm, neither will have got any recognition nor pay for what they did and don't expect it.
What they do is both grim and nasty but they do it for others not to others.

[Dixy]

Which can you live without, Hunt or Doctors.

I think the JDs should strike on Saturday and Sunday, after all Hunt thinks they don't work then, he might suddenly find that what they do then allows the rest of the weak to function.

[Dixy]

One of the parts to this equation that is hard to understand, even when close to it, is the training nature of a Junior Doctor. Although they are qualified as a doctor in order to become a consultant they have to undergo at least another 7 years training. To avoid nepotism and to ensure a broad experience level they are forced to move ward hospital and deanery on a regular basis. The first weak in August there is a massive reshuffle each year, the HR departments rarely can keep up with who will be where. Despite the fact that the JD may have worked in a hospital 5 miles away they will insist on a fresh crb check and even if they move within the same hospital they will have their aces to the computer blocked and have to re-register. contracts and rotas are rarely ready on day one.
But you would like them to individually negotiate a pay deal, yep that would work.

[Dixy]

The Surveyor said:

The sad reality is that I would be much better off being seriously ill in a vast majority of other western countries than I would in the UK. The NHS is no longer the envy of the rest of the world.

On what do you base this. As this is a thread about Junior Doctors are you saying that this is because of them.

[Dixy]

The Surveyor said:

I base that on statitics from my specialist nurse
no, I don't single out the JDs as being solely responsible.

So one persons opinion on one part of the NHS from questionable statistics. As your wife would seem to be a breast care nurse, perhaps you would like to ask her opinion on women that had a mastectomy over 20 years ago and are now in their seventies getting reconstruction surgery at not inconsiderable cost.
The use of the word solely means yes they are part of the problem in your opinion. Perhaps you would like to justify.

[Dixy]

The Surveyor said:

Dixy said:

The Surveyor said:

I base that on statitics from my specialist nurse
no, I don't single out the JDs as being solely responsible.

So one persons opinion on one part of the NHS from questionable statistics. As your wife would seem to be a breast care nurse, perhaps you would like to ask her opinion on women that had a mastectomy over 20 years ago and are now in their seventies getting reconstruction surgery at not inconsiderable cost.
The use of the word solely means yes they are part of the problem in your opinion. Perhaps you would like to justify.

She is not a breast care nurse, and my comment was made based on her evidence, AND those separate NHS statistics but don't let your selective quoting get in the way of my own opinion.

My quoting was not selective, I just left out the superfluous repeating of your out of date statistics.
perhaps you would like to give your opinion as to why the Junior Doctors are part of the problem.

Edited by Dixy on Friday 18th March 16:19

[Dixy]

968 said:

Just to say my wife had an emergency section early this morning at our local NHS hospital and was in theatre within 30 min of arriving, mum and baby fine in no small part to the 2 obs and gynae junior doctors who recognised she had a placental abruption and operated on her immediately, saving her and our child's life. For the detractors above who slate the service and the attitude/performance of the staff, this sort of experience confirms to me from the other side what the realities are, that is we have a first rate system with first rate staff but sadly presided over by a of an SoS.

This was a cynical political stunt organised by the BMA just for the press and your wife would have been better looked after in Romania under Ceausescu


Congratulations on the hard work you did 9 months ago and glad that the NHS was there for you as it is for every one.

[Dixy]

968 said:

barryrs said:

So next week your £10k worse off comment might well be a load of crap as it's such a fast paced negotiation.

Yes possibly but given the govt predisposition to enforce unfair contracts, do you think they'll back down?

968 stop feeding the Troll, it just wants to divert the topic.

[Dixy]

Welshbeef said:

Reading hospital.

... So that's what £5/hour.

And all that has exactly what to do with the Junior Doctors contract dispute?

[Dixy]

barryrs said:

My recent input

What input have you had that is on topic, I am quite happy for you to justify why the contract changes should destroy the morale of a generation of the most needed in society.

[Dixy]

Do you dispute that morale has been destroyed or that they are the most needed part of society.

[Dixy]

eldar said:

I'd quibble a little with most needed. Vital and important most certainly. Most needed depends, a JD will not be much use if your house catches fire.

Morale destroyed? All 1.43 million employees, have had their morale destroyed? Is there any evidence for that?

I know people who have never needed a fireman or policeman or accountant or lawyer or..... I know no one who has never needed a doctor.
This thread is only about junior doctors and the fact that they are going on all out strike for the first time ever is proof enough how low morale has sunk.

[Dixy]

Adam Ansel said:

Firstly you obviously don't understand what insurance is. For your education it is when the costs and risks of one patient are borne by many people. Then you try and pretend that the NHS as currently formulated is a good thing, when very obviously it isn't. It is very bad at caring for patients and especially bad at keeping them alive, even when the greedy junior doctors aren't on strike.
Then you seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that many other countries have health services and nearly all of them are better for patients. The Dutch and New Zealand systems are both considered to be among the best and they are both insurance driven.

I am sorry you know so little about this subject and suggest that you do some reading up. Maybe also enroll on an MBA course to learn a bit about how the world works.

Really, 968 has explained real world examples of first hand experience, for someone who is new to PH and who has no knowledge of who or what others are you seem very happy to make wild statements. How about stating what your position is, like where you did your MBA, then we may be able to decide if you are a troll or a fool.
This thread is about the JD dispute how about a proper constructive comment.

[Dixy]

Surveyor you are quite rite, 968 is quite capable of standing his own ground. I apologize for rising to the bait.

The reason why the JDs keep escalating their action is that Hunt is refusing to listen or talk, the consultants have given the JDs their full backing, when the next strike happens most non emergency stuff will stop so that all the emergencies can be staffed by consultants.
Unlike Hunt the JDs are not giving an ultimatum, they are just insisting on dialogue. In August because of the way JDs are moved about most will have one contract end and a new one start, if on that day they all say no we wont sign and therefore cant work, what then?

[Dixy]

The Surveyor said:

The real nub for me is that for decades, we've all been fed stories of the long hours JDs have to work, how unsafe those 24 hour shifts are, how they fall asleep on the job, but how they heroically carry on regardless etc... For me the JDs had the respect of the wider public because they always presented a picture of working exceptional hours for modest pay for the good of the patients. Now, in simple terms they are striking because they are having those longer hours formulated. That's why they will loose all that good will from the public. People will start to look at the clinical staff within the NHS as only being there for the pay and you will all be tarred by the same brush.

'Pay before Patients' will be the headlines.

One of the things that has changed dramatically is that a new doctor who has no alternative funding will start their career with nearly £100,000 worth of debt and each year as a JD will spend about £6000 on training courses and exams.

Edited by Dixy on Friday 25th March 19:37

[Dixy]

The Surveyor said:

........For the avoidance of any further doubt, that means that the NHS as a whole need to shoulder some responsibility, the JDs being part of that organisation

You are quite right and they do and are trying to do something about it. They have said that a doctor that has been rostered 7 consecutive 13 hour shifts (my daughter was) is too mentally and physically exhausted to perform at the required standard. They have said that if so many JDs fail to stay in the profession or this country that there will be too few to give a skeleton service. But none of this is Hunts problem he will have moved on by then.

The alternative is they roll over and wait for it to collapse.

[Dixy]

We would have to know where you stand to know whether we agree with you.

[Dixy]

OK so you want to talk facts, the first piece starts by asking the BMA to return to negotiations, difficult when the SoS wont come despite the BMA being willing.
Do you have any credible "facts"