BBC News banging on about student loans, again!

[singlecoil]

TTwiggy said:

singlecoil said:

Your sarcasm is exceeded only by the irrelevance of your examples.

You mean my examples that will all (most likely) have been created by arts graduates?

Most of the artistic produce that I (and many others) enjoy, and from a much wider range of subjects than the few you mentioned, was produced by people who did NOT go to university. Chance, perhaps? Most of the people who study film, for instance, spend their time studying the work of people who didn't go to university, but who did produce great films.

[TTwiggy]

singlecoil said:

Most of the artistic produce that I (and many others) enjoy, and from a much wider range of subjects than the few you mentioned, was produced by people who did NOT go to university. Chance, perhaps? Most of the people who study film, for instance, spend their time studying the work of people who didn't go to university, but who did produce great films.

I would agree that there's no need to go to university in order to produce great art.

I'd also argue that there's no need to go to university to learn to write software.

But, as university and degrees are the subject of this thread, then I will exercise my right to defend the arts subjects.

[singlecoil]

TTwiggy said:

But, as university and degrees are the subject of this thread, then I will exercise my right to defend the arts subjects.

Go ahead, defend them as much as you like. Just don't ask me to pay for people to study them. Feel free to pay my share if you wish, though.

[TTwiggy]

singlecoil said:

Go ahead, defend them as much as you like. Just don't ask me to pay for people to study them. Feel free to pay my share if you wish, though.

So you really see no value in them?

To take one example - pertinent to the core of this website - a car can only be produced through the combined efforts of science, engineering and arts graduates.

An engineer may make it go and stop, but it's a designer that determines how it looks and how the driver interacts with it ergonomically.

[lazystudent]

TTwiggy said:

and did A levels in physics and chemistry - I just object to the offhand dismissal of the arts that pervades this site

+1. I studied chemistry and maths (among others) at A level and now do an 'arts' degree- don't get all this bashing of subjects that are just as important as others, just they don't produce "things"- cars, oil rigs, shapeships, whatever

[TTwiggy]

lazystudent said:

+1. I studied chemistry and maths (among others) at A level and now do an 'arts' degree- don't get all this bashing of subjects that are just as important as others, just they don't produce "things"- cars, oil rigs, shapeships, whatever

It's due to the people on here who know the price of everything but the value of nothing.

[Blue Oval84]

onedsla said:

My wife went to University of Penn (an Ivy league school, but certainly not the most expensive in US) for a 4 year graduate degree, then later went back for a 2 year masters. She was lucky enough to qualify for a small academic scholarship to help with funding, but this is what you should be prepared to budget if starting this year:

Total Tuition and Fees $43,738
Housing 7,952
Meals 4,416
Books 1,210
Personal 2,284
Total Budget $59,600

Yes, that's about £37k per year. Degrees tend to be 4 years to our 3, so that's getting on for £150k before going back for a masters.

The interest rate for the federal backed student loan is currently 6.8%, so not much discount on the market rate either. You can claim hardship if you can't afford repayment for a period of time, but the interest keeps ticking up.

So I guess not many people study for non-degrees in the States then with those costs!?

[clarkey328is]

TTwiggy said:

You mean my examples that will all (most likely) have been created by arts graduates?

Of the original subjects that were studied at university - classics, theology, law, architecture and medicine - only medicine is a science.

Before the industrial revolution, most of the 'great men' in the history of this country were arts graduates.

I have the greatest respect for science
- and did A levels in physics and chemistry - I just object to the offhand dismissal of the arts that pervades this site.

Fair enough, my point was more along the lines that the arts need very little formal training, and very very rarely to degree level. You are assuming my dismissal of arts subjects is a wholesale dismissal of the arts in general. It's not, I just don't think the taxpayer should have to fund it to such a ridiculous scale when the overwhelming majority of BA students will get nowhere near repaying their loan.

[TTwiggy]

clarkey328is said:

Fair enough, my point was more along the lines that the arts need very little formal training, and very very rarely to degree level. You are assuming my dismissal of arts subjects is a wholesale dismissal of the arts in general. It's not, I just don't think the taxpayer should have to fund it to such a ridiculous scale when the overwhelming majority of BA students will get nowhere near repaying their loan.

Sorry - double post

[TTwiggy]

clarkey328is said:

Fair enough, my point was more along the lines that the arts need very little formal training, and very very rarely to degree level. You are assuming my dismissal of arts subjects is a wholesale dismissal of the arts in general. It's not, I just don't think the taxpayer should have to fund it to such a ridiculous scale when the overwhelming majority of BA students will get nowhere near repaying their loan.

Law students will probably do ok, as will architecture students. Other BA courses that will lead to gainful employment would be journalism, some media degrees and those subjects that are taught at secondary school (though I concede that this applies to BSc courses too).

I have a BA( hons) and I do ok

[singlecoil]

TTwiggy said:

singlecoil said:

Go ahead, defend them as much as you like. Just don't ask me to pay for people to study them. Feel free to pay my share if you wish, though.

So you really see no value in them?

To take one example - pertinent to the core of this website - a car can only be produced through the combined efforts of science, engineering and arts graduates.

An engineer may make it go and stop, but it's a designer that determines how it looks and how the driver interacts with it ergonomically.

I didn't say there was no value to them. I'm saying I don't want to pay for them. Hopefully this point will sink in eventually. Have I made myself clear yet?

[Colonial]

Australia has the HECS scheme. Same basic premise.

I currently pay around $400 a fortnight in repayments. Admittedly this is because I am in the highest rate due to a decent income.

This, as you can imagine, is a not insignificant sum out of my pocket. It does have an impact. And most people with a HECS debt do not buy a house until they have paid it off, as it is basically not possible to pay off a mortgage and one, usually two, HECS debts. You have two people earning decent money and that is, lets say, $650 a fortnight never even seen.

As such, the average age of first home buyers is increasing.

[TTwiggy]

singlecoil said:

TTwiggy said:

singlecoil said:

Go ahead, defend them as much as you like. Just don't ask me to pay for people to study them. Feel free to pay my share if you wish, though.

So you really see no value in them?

To take one example - pertinent to the core of this website - a car can only be produced through the combined efforts of science, engineering and arts graduates.

An engineer may make it go and stop, but it's a designer that determines how it looks and how the driver interacts with it ergonomically.

I didn't say there was no value to them. I'm saying I don't want to pay for them. Hopefully this point will sink in eventually. Have I made myself clear yet?

Tax payers foot the bill for many things they may not like, use, or value.

I don't have kids, but I'm pretty sure I'm paying for schools. Some of those kids will learn nothing and contribute nothing towards society; can I have a refund?

[blueg33]

I think we should have an opt out.

Those who don't want taxes to go any way to educating or bringing up children can opt out, but as soon as the opt outers stop working they have to fend for themselves; including pension, healthcare, libraries, roads, defence, police etc. In fact everything that the tax take from working people pays for.

Edited by blueg33 on Tuesday 13th March 10:26

[singlecoil]

TTwiggy said:

Tax payers foot the bill for many things they may not like, use, or value.

I don't have kids, but I'm pretty sure I'm paying for schools. Some of those kids will learn nothing and contribute nothing towards society; can I have a refund?

I really don't mind you valuing the teaching of arts subjects at university to the point that you are happy to pay for them, why do you mind so much my holding a contrary opinion? You can put forward as many reasons as you like as to why I should think differently on this topic, but I think your efforts would be better spent elsewhere.

[Caulkhead]

Maybe the carrot and stick are round the wrong way. Maybe we should bill students for their course if they drop out, fail or don't directly utilise their degree in their career and those that do, we pay the bill for?

[blueg33]

Caulkhead said:

Maybe the carrot and stick are round the wrong way. Maybe we should bill students for their course if they drop out, fail or don't directly utilise their degree in their career and those that do, we pay the bill for?

Thats tricky one though. Eg most law firms like physics or natural science graduates, for my business I like geography graduates and economists, others in my role like accountants and statisticians etc

So tricky to enforce and monitor

[Caulkhead]

blueg33 said:

Caulkhead said:

Maybe the carrot and stick are round the wrong way. Maybe we should bill students for their course if they drop out, fail or don't directly utilise their degree in their career and those that do, we pay the bill for?

Thats tricky one though. Eg most law firms like physics or natural science graduates, for my business I like geography graduates and economists, others in my role like accountants and statisticians etc

So tricky to enforce and monitor

Not really, I'd let all those examples you mention in, I'd just exclude obvious ones like not needing a sociology degree to work in McDonalds. Actually having said that, I don't think there is a job you need a sociology degree for is there?

[TTwiggy]

singlecoil said:

TTwiggy said:

Tax payers foot the bill for many things they may not like, use, or value.

I don't have kids, but I'm pretty sure I'm paying for schools. Some of those kids will learn nothing and contribute nothing towards society; can I have a refund?

I really don't mind you valuing the teaching of arts subjects at university to the point that you are happy to pay for them, why do you mind so much my holding a contrary opinion? You can put forward as many reasons as you like as to why I should think differently on this topic, but I think your efforts would be better spent elsewhere.

You're welcome to any opinion you wish to hold. But, if you remember how this started, I was replying to a point made by another poster (who has since come back in reasonable and polite terms to expain his position) and you saw fit to jump in. When I tried to point out the value of these subjects, you called me sarcastic - and yet you think I'm the one with the problem, and it's me who should 'take myself elsewhere'. Odd.

[PimpmyHotwheels]

Caulkhead said:

Not really, I'd let all those examples you mention in, I'd just exclude obvious ones like not needing a sociology degree to work in McDonalds. Actually having said that, I don't think there is a job you need a sociology degree for is there?

My mother back in the 80's did a Sociology degree to help her get onto the path of becoming a social worker. Now i think that isn't needed as you can just get the correct experince by volunteering/working and have the right A levels to do a degree in social work (Social sciences) which will give you the correct qualifcation to become a fully qualifed social worker. I don't know much about it but correct me if I'm wrong please.

I'm in a different situation myself. I have offers to study Computer science at a number of uni's in the hope to get into IT (Do not know what specific field) and pondering on will it be worth it or not.