Chemotherapy - cancer? You're fit.
Discussion
davepoth said:
crankedup said:
If a patient is well enough to work such as your situation thats a good thing. But would you have wanted to journey to work on public transport and face the eight hour day five days a week. Also the examination makes no allowances, if your receiving oral chemo you are fit for work. Would that patient be able to concentrate 100% on the work, its a minefield in reality both for the employee and employer.
No, the examination says if you take chemo orally, you need to take the assessment. If you are unfit to work by the definitions of the assessment then you would still be unfit for work. The assessment looks to see if you are capable of doing some work, not all work. Even if that's only five hours a week, the idea is that everybody should do whatever work they can do. Again, without the actual details of the situations mentioned it's impossible to see whether the facts have been bent to fit a particular narrative.
The actual examples I used came from the prog'but thousands of people are affected.
JontyR said:
johnfm said:
league67 said:
Pesty said:
johnfm said:
Boo hoo.
Why don't you dip into your savings and pay these people to sit at home if it so upsetting.
seriously?Why don't you dip into your savings and pay these people to sit at home if it so upsetting.
think that and it's not just mindless bravado, you should be shot. Preferably, imho, before you contaminate genetic pool.
The robust testing and appeals procedure should ( though may not necessarily) weed out people who have chosen sickness benefit as a lifestyle choice.
The question is 'what exactly is too sick to work'?
Quite clearly, some jobs (if they are available) could be done by people with a variety of long term illnesses.
Some long term illnesses may not make work possible. These people are the ones who need welfare support. As with the NHS and most other forms of welfare, the scope creep has become so wide that there is too little help available to genuine claimants.
As for karma, that is what health insurance is for.
, but I will stick up for your point.I worked as a care assistant for many years, and there were 2 types of people, those that want to work, and those that want to freeload.
There was a time when if you were disabled or unable to work, unless your family could support you...you were found dead in the street! I'm not advocating we return to those times, but something clearly needs to be done to stop the rot! What’s worse is there seems to be a culture that spans generations now, so the mother is claiming disability allowance and daughter/son sees how easy it is and fakes it too. Please don’t be naive to believe it doesn’t happen, there are loads of people that are claiming the allowances that could work with minimal adjustment. Maybe if these people hadn’t taken the p1ss for so long, the genuine ones wouldn’t need to lose out. But as with everything we've become more cynical.
Plus as already mentioned, those that want to try do! Those that want to claim, know the system. It doesn’t take much effort to feign a cough, walk slowly, look ill...just watch Ferris...he fooled many people!
It is an unfortunate by product of the system, ruined by the a
holes of this world. It isn’t the current governments fault, as they are trying to tackle the mistakes made by the previous lot. The free giving society that once was cannot be afforded any longer.ps : the extra allowance for illness / disability was brought in under a Tory Government. Many ex coalminers during the 1980's / 90's had Doctors sign these people onto the 'disability living allowance' which gave them some extra money.
Justayellowbadge said:
Not sure what you are getting at?
Your point appeared to me (perhaps I was wrong) that the only reason the DLA appeals succeeded was due to loopholes rather than as is often the case, the DWP completely ignoring the evidence, making things up and simply saying no without any concern or knowledge of the law or indeed the correct tests to be used. So I would say why not run a few appeals yourself and you will see just what sort of incompetence and plain stupidity the DWP operate under rather than assume that there is some form of loophole which is exploited by the really ill.rich1231 said:
crankedup said:
Maybe? but thats hardly the point, the debate regarding the current system is far more important, anyhow, thanks for your deep and meaningful input.
Hang on.You make sweaping points that are not correct and I am in some way in the wrong?
crankedup said:
rich1231 said:
crankedup said:
Maybe? but thats hardly the point, the debate regarding the current system is far more important, anyhow, thanks for your deep and meaningful input.
Hang on.You make sweaping points that are not correct and I am in some way in the wrong?
I employ people picking up cardboard boxes, they could be one armed it wouldn't make any difference.
Your attitude does the sick and disabled a disservice.
crankedup said:
Sorry, my use of the word examination may be misleading perhaps. The assessment states categorically that if you take chemo orally this condition will not excuse you from being unfit for work. If that person then goes on and secures less than a full time job they could be financially worse off, doing less then a days work they will certainly be worse off. They loose all of the benifit once deemed fit for work, apart from JSA which is obviously withdrawn when work is found. Either way its a catch 22 for those genuinely ill/disabled or both if deemed fit for work through a flawed assessment.
The actual examples I used came from the prog'but thousands of people are affected.
No, that's wrong. I've been through the assessment so I do know how it works. There is a list of things which I have mentioned which automatically determine that the person is unfit for work. If they meet one of those criteria (one of which is IV Chemo) then you don't need to be assessed for fitness to work and immediately get the benefit, which is now called the Employment and Support Allowance.The actual examples I used came from the prog'but thousands of people are affected.
If you don't meet the criteria then you are assessed for ability to work. If you are assessed as unfit to do any work then you will still get the same benefit as if you met one of the automatic criteria.
If after the assessment you are assessed as capable of doing some work, you will receive the ESA on a sliding scale dependent on your ability to work.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Be...
The only time they will get no ESA at all is if they are assessed as having no loss of ability to work. Because that assessment is done as an interview for come of the criteria it is quite possible to lie and get more benefit, or downplay your symptoms and get less benefit.
Out of interest, what is IV chemo?
My mother has cancer (recently had a lump from her breast and some nodes removed) and is still waiting for a PET(?) scan to determine if there's something on her lung. She was supposed to have the scan a few days ago (the machine broke down!), prior to which they stuck something radioactive in to her via IV. Apparently it came in a lead lined container and the person administering it wore a little geiger counter type device on their wrist (or finger, I forget). I'm now wondering if this is what you lot are talking about (she's forgot herself what it was)?
Oh, and she still works. Two jobs in fact.
My mother has cancer (recently had a lump from her breast and some nodes removed) and is still waiting for a PET(?) scan to determine if there's something on her lung. She was supposed to have the scan a few days ago (the machine broke down!), prior to which they stuck something radioactive in to her via IV. Apparently it came in a lead lined container and the person administering it wore a little geiger counter type device on their wrist (or finger, I forget). I'm now wondering if this is what you lot are talking about (she's forgot herself what it was)?
Oh, and she still works. Two jobs in fact.
Jasandjules said:
Your point appeared to me (perhaps I was wrong) that the only reason the DLA appeals succeeded was due to loopholes rather than as is often the case, the DWP completely ignoring the evidence, making things up and simply saying no without any concern or knowledge of the law or indeed the correct tests to be used. So I would say why not run a few appeals yourself and you will see just what sort of incompetence and plain stupidity the DWP operate under rather than assume that there is some form of loophole which is exploited by the really ill.
If someone is ill, then they are not exploiting a loophole.I didn't comment on the DWP or mention the ill at all. My comment was in regard to the advisor.
30% of appeals succeed. This chap claimed a 100% success rate. I cannot believe that is down to 100% of appeals being valid, but just requiring his expertise to present correctly.
Oakey said:
Out of interest, what is IV chemo?
My mother has cancer (recently had a lump from her breast and some nodes removed) and is still waiting for a PET(?) scan to determine if there's something on her lung. She was supposed to have the scan a few days ago (the machine broke down!), prior to which they stuck something radioactive in to her via IV. Apparently it came in a lead lined container and the person administering it wore a little geiger counter type device on their wrist (or finger, I forget). I'm now wondering if this is what you lot are talking about (she's forgot herself what it was)?
Oh, and she still works. Two jobs in fact.
Chemotherapy delivered by a drip, rather than in tablet form. My mother has cancer (recently had a lump from her breast and some nodes removed) and is still waiting for a PET(?) scan to determine if there's something on her lung. She was supposed to have the scan a few days ago (the machine broke down!), prior to which they stuck something radioactive in to her via IV. Apparently it came in a lead lined container and the person administering it wore a little geiger counter type device on their wrist (or finger, I forget). I'm now wondering if this is what you lot are talking about (she's forgot herself what it was)?
Oh, and she still works. Two jobs in fact.
The stuff they put into your mother is a radioactive substance a bit like glucose. Cancer cells have a crazy fast metabolism so suck up glucose much quicker than other cells - when you do an X-ray (a PET scan is a very clever X-ray essentially) any cancer cells show up very brightly because they've used up a lot of the radioactive material.
Oakey said:
crankedup said:
Nobody supports benefit cheats, but these examples are not related to the examinations we are debating in the thread. No mention of the people being subjected to the examinations.
Wtf are you talking about, you said "it's impossible to cheat the system". Clearly these people were cheating the system otherwise they wouldn't have been claiming DLA whilst dicking about at Alton Towers or the like. As for the 'examinations' in this thread, that guy who had the heart attack had it five weeks later, not two. Any more inaccuracies to your OP?
rich1231 said:
crankedup said:
rich1231 said:
crankedup said:
Maybe? but thats hardly the point, the debate regarding the current system is far more important, anyhow, thanks for your deep and meaningful input.
Hang on.You make sweaping points that are not correct and I am in some way in the wrong?
I employ people picking up cardboard boxes, they could be one armed it wouldn't make any difference.
Your attitude does the sick and disabled a disservice.
crankedup said:
Refusal to post up the entire exchange means one thing only, you have made a baseless and worthless remark. Please elaborate on your assertion of 'my attitude does the sick and disabled a disservice'. Which sweeping statements have I made that are of particular interest in being not correct. Seems to me you are no more than a warrior who cannot escape his paper-bag.
No I use the quote button as it can easily be seen what was posted previously by scrolling up.So you made a remark saying someone lifting a box isnt a valid test. It is, as I mentioned it is a valid test. I own a mail order business and it is indeed no real impediment to have one arm.
Your assetion that there are large numbers of worth claiments being forced to work is quite insulting to those that have found themselves claiming and are trapped, just needing a firm push to get them back into the working population. If I was disabled, then the last thing I would want is sympathetic nonsense on my behalf of someone like you.
davepoth said:
crankedup said:
Sorry, my use of the word examination may be misleading perhaps. The assessment states categorically that if you take chemo orally this condition will not excuse you from being unfit for work. If that person then goes on and secures less than a full time job they could be financially worse off, doing less then a days work they will certainly be worse off. They loose all of the benifit once deemed fit for work, apart from JSA which is obviously withdrawn when work is found. Either way its a catch 22 for those genuinely ill/disabled or both if deemed fit for work through a flawed assessment.
The actual examples I used came from the prog'but thousands of people are affected.
No, that's wrong. I've been through the assessment so I do know how it works. There is a list of things which I have mentioned which automatically determine that the person is unfit for work. If they meet one of those criteria (one of which is IV Chemo) then you don't need to be assessed for fitness to work and immediately get the benefit, which is now called the Employment and Support Allowance.The actual examples I used came from the prog'but thousands of people are affected.
If you don't meet the criteria then you are assessed for ability to work. If you are assessed as unfit to do any work then you will still get the same benefit as if you met one of the automatic criteria.
If after the assessment you are assessed as capable of doing some work, you will receive the ESA on a sliding scale dependent on your ability to work.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Be...
The only time they will get no ESA at all is if they are assessed as having no loss of ability to work. Because that assessment is done as an interview for come of the criteria it is quite possible to lie and get more benefit, or downplay your symptoms and get less benefit.
rich1231 said:
crankedup said:
Refusal to post up the entire exchange means one thing only, you have made a baseless and worthless remark. Please elaborate on your assertion of 'my attitude does the sick and disabled a disservice'. Which sweeping statements have I made that are of particular interest in being not correct. Seems to me you are no more than a warrior who cannot escape his paper-bag.
No I use the quote button as it can easily be seen what was posted previously by scrolling up.So you made a remark saying someone lifting a box isnt a valid test. It is, as I mentioned it is a valid test. I own a mail order business and it is indeed no real impediment to have one arm.
Your assetion that there are large numbers of worth claiments being forced to work is quite insulting to those that have found themselves claiming and are trapped, just needing a firm push to get them back into the working population. If I was disabled, then the last thing I would want is sympathetic nonsense on my behalf of someone like you.
Don't preach to me about how the ill/disabled feel about ethics, my kid Sister suffered a brain tumour at 16 years of age, she passed away in a hospice at 24 years of age with her family at her bedside, including me, so don't you dare preach to me. My eldest Brother is also suffering from an inoperable brain tumour, he collapsed at work and since then 13 years have passed by. He is on constant medication to keep him alive, he suffers dreadful effects from the tumour and medication. He is currently awaiting his ESA assessment interview and is worried out of his life asking me how he will get by if his benefit is stopped. This is real life and personal examples which affect lives. People like you who post crap because you are unable to debate on a sensible level piss me off completely.
It is patently obvious to me that you have never dealt with the chronically sick/disabled people.
ps the cardboard box moving exercise is just one of the tests, not the be all end all.
crankedup said:
Then post up my remark where I have said box lifting is not a valid test. Frankly you are over exaggerating my posts, why I do not know, however, I have acknowledged the fact that the ill/disabled may want to work, indeed many do. If you can read back my posts you will read that I have tried to be reasonable in acknowledging that not all those affected by illness/disabilities would want nothing else but to work. But the debate is not about those people, it is about those unable to work being deemed fit to do so.
Don't preach to me about how the ill/disabled feel about ethics, my kid Sister suffered a brain tumour at 16 years of age, she passed away in a hospice at 24 years of age with her family at her bedside, including me, so don't you dare preach to me. My eldest Brother is also suffering from an inoperable brain tumour, he collapsed at work and since then 13 years have passed by. He is on constant medication to keep him alive, he suffers dreadful effects from the tumour and medication. He is currently awaiting his ESA assessment interview and is worried out of his life asking me how he will get by if his benefit is stopped. This is real life and personal examples which affect lives. People like you who post crap because you are unable to debate on a sensible level piss me off completely.
It is patently obvious to me that you have never dealt with the chronically sick/disabled people.
ps the cardboard box moving exercise is just one of the tests, not the be all end all.
How would you know what I have had to deal with or anyone else for that matter, please don't make assumptions, you really will just end up looking more of a tDon't preach to me about how the ill/disabled feel about ethics, my kid Sister suffered a brain tumour at 16 years of age, she passed away in a hospice at 24 years of age with her family at her bedside, including me, so don't you dare preach to me. My eldest Brother is also suffering from an inoperable brain tumour, he collapsed at work and since then 13 years have passed by. He is on constant medication to keep him alive, he suffers dreadful effects from the tumour and medication. He is currently awaiting his ESA assessment interview and is worried out of his life asking me how he will get by if his benefit is stopped. This is real life and personal examples which affect lives. People like you who post crap because you are unable to debate on a sensible level piss me off completely.
It is patently obvious to me that you have never dealt with the chronically sick/disabled people.
ps the cardboard box moving exercise is just one of the tests, not the be all end all.
t that you already do.Don't use specific examples if you don't want them challenged.
crankedup said:
Completely agree, however, the ESA benefit is interim whilst people await the face to face assessment , usually within 6 months of receiving the ESA, which is the new benefit taking the place of the old incapacity benefit. It is the face to face assessment under debate and it is this assessment which is the cause of controversy. So the initial form filling, as we agree, puts an individual onto 'fit for work' or ESA. Those on ESA will almost certainly be called in for assessments.
No. Everybody goes on to ESA now, there is no IB for new claimants. Even if you are found unfit for work automatically due to the set of criteria which includes IV Chemo, you will be on ESA. It's Employment and Support Allowance. Following the assessment (which I will reiterate that I have been through recently) a decision will be made concerning fitness to work. Where you are found unfit to do any work at all (as I was due to a number of broken limbs that left me unable to walk or move a wheelchair in a straight line), you will be given the ESA and not helped to find employment. This is called the "support pool". Because broken limbs heal, I was subject to periodic reassessment to ensure I still needed ESA, although I cancelled my claim before my first reassessment.
If you are found fit to do any work at all (even an hour a week) you will be put into the "employment pool" and helped to find work. Again, these people would be subject to periodic reassessment to ensure that they were still getting the correct benefit.
davepoth said:
crankedup said:
Completely agree, however, the ESA benefit is interim whilst people await the face to face assessment , usually within 6 months of receiving the ESA, which is the new benefit taking the place of the old incapacity benefit. It is the face to face assessment under debate and it is this assessment which is the cause of controversy. So the initial form filling, as we agree, puts an individual onto 'fit for work' or ESA. Those on ESA will almost certainly be called in for assessments.
No. Everybody goes on to ESA now, there is no IB for new claimants. Even if you are found unfit for work automatically due to the set of criteria which includes IV Chemo, you will be on ESA. It's Employment and Support Allowance. Following the assessment (which I will reiterate that I have been through recently) a decision will be made concerning fitness to work. Where you are found unfit to do any work at all (as I was due to a number of broken limbs that left me unable to walk or move a wheelchair in a straight line), you will be given the ESA and not helped to find employment. This is called the "support pool". Because broken limbs heal, I was subject to periodic reassessment to ensure I still needed ESA, although I cancelled my claim before my first reassessment.
If you are found fit to do any work at all (even an hour a week) you will be put into the "employment pool" and helped to find work. Again, these people would be subject to periodic reassessment to ensure that they were still getting the correct benefit.
crankedup said:
Then post up my remark where I have said box lifting is not a valid test. Frankly you are over exaggerating my posts, why I do not know, however, I have acknowledged the fact that the ill/disabled may want to work, indeed many do. If you can read back my posts you will read that I have tried to be reasonable in acknowledging that not all those affected by illness/disabilities would want nothing else but to work. But the debate is not about those people, it is about those unable to work being deemed fit to do so.
Don't preach to me about how the ill/disabled feel about ethics, my kid Sister suffered a brain tumour at 16 years of age, she passed away in a hospice at 24 years of age with her family at her bedside, including me, so don't you dare preach to me. My eldest Brother is also suffering from an inoperable brain tumour, he collapsed at work and since then 13 years have passed by. He is on constant medication to keep him alive, he suffers dreadful effects from the tumour and medication. He is currently awaiting his ESA assessment interview and is worried out of his life asking me how he will get by if his benefit is stopped. This is real life and personal examples which affect lives. People like you who post crap because you are unable to debate on a sensible level piss me off completely.
It is patently obvious to me that you have never dealt with the chronically sick/disabled people.
ps the cardboard box moving exercise is just one of the tests, not the be all end all.
So, the real point of your original post is that you have a brother on SIckness Benefit and he (and you) are worried that the new criteria may mean he loses some or all of it.Don't preach to me about how the ill/disabled feel about ethics, my kid Sister suffered a brain tumour at 16 years of age, she passed away in a hospice at 24 years of age with her family at her bedside, including me, so don't you dare preach to me. My eldest Brother is also suffering from an inoperable brain tumour, he collapsed at work and since then 13 years have passed by. He is on constant medication to keep him alive, he suffers dreadful effects from the tumour and medication. He is currently awaiting his ESA assessment interview and is worried out of his life asking me how he will get by if his benefit is stopped. This is real life and personal examples which affect lives. People like you who post crap because you are unable to debate on a sensible level piss me off completely.
It is patently obvious to me that you have never dealt with the chronically sick/disabled people.
ps the cardboard box moving exercise is just one of the tests, not the be all end all.
If he is unable to work, due to a 13 year brain tumour with substantial ill effects, do your really think he will be assessed fit to work?
Really?
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