The Gender Unicorn

[williamp]

Mark Benson said:

stuff I agree with

I agree. Whilst we can laugh at it, we dont understand it. Which is the point, as its a yoof thing. I expect in a few years they'll be a "how did you identify yourself as a teen" thread on here. If we started ione now, it would look somehting like:

indie kid
happy hardcore
punk
goth

etc etc

I was an indie kid. Totally misunderstood by my parents and everyone else etc etc

[TeamD]

williamp said:

Totally misunderstood by my parents and everyone else etc etc

Weren't we all?

[Janluke]

FlyingMeeces said:

I'd known something was terribly wrong since infant school but didn't have the words for what until my early 20s. It's not a healthy way to grow up. Was seriously and persistently suicidal by 13. Realised I was a guy at maybe 22, wasn't in a position to do much about it until a year ago - I've just turned 31. I cannot overstate how many utter fking nightmares - including the need for surgery now - would have been avoided if I'd had the language to express it to someone pre puberty.

By comparison being 'other than straight' is trivial (it isn't trivial at all) but - the vast majority of children know the terminology to describe the basics of who and what they are by the end of early childhood. Most children assume they are, and are assumed to be, straight, and most of the time that's accurate, but it's not healthy for those who fall outside that bracket - I cannot imagine that it does not somewhat increase the vulnerability to manipulation and abuse when they are a little older, too.

NB because I've been a PHer for long enough - if I minded talking about this I wouldn't be posting, go ahead and ask st if you wanna, but whether or not trans or non-trans boys, girls, men and women *know* that they are male or female is not something I'm gonna be debating.

I must admit I've never understood the whole trans thing. I wasnt prejudiced at all just didnt get it. I have recently returned from coaching at a youth sports camp aged 12-16. Before the students arrived we where told that one of kids who was "Janet" last year is now "John"(made up names ). I remember Janet as what I would call a tomboy, a slightly troubled child who never quite seemed comfortable or at ease. A year older John was a confident young man clearly happy with his own identity. Now the really interesting thing was how readily the other kids(many who hadn't seen John for a year) just accepted the situation. When coaching John I never once thought of him as a her it was obvious that he was a he. I've come away a little more educated and with a little more understanding

[230TE]

Mark Benson said:

Referring to the bit I bolded (emboldened?); Not these days, my (16 year old) niece is currently 'gender fluid' after being heaven knows how many other labels in the last 12 months or so. Her irritating friends are all the same, male and female, none (currently) identify as cis-gendered.

She's nothing of the sort, she's as cis as I am. But that's just not what the cool kids are doing at the moment, what we called experimenting and kept behind closed doors, they shout from the rooftops (or at least on social media) and this month gender fluidity is in. Got to be a member of a 'special' group when you're a special snowflake and unique and special in your specialness.

Which of course does nothing for those that genuinely are wrestling with those kind of issues but strident campaigners can point to a big increase in non-cis self-identifiers and claim that ever since they made up some lovely new names, all the previously oppressed non-cis people are now freed from tyranny.

When in fact all that's happened is that it's become just another trend for teens to acquire for a while then drop when they grow up.

On the other hand, for the first time in their mostly miserable lives, the trans kids are at the cutting edge of fashion, and authentic in a way that the cool kids can never be. That's a happy thought.

[J4CKO]

This is almost as complicated and confusing as when the 17 year old J4CKO (with J4ckos mate, also of this parish) was in Belgium in a place called Sluice, and being 17 yer old men of the (Air Freight) world, we went into a sex shop, as a bit of levity, seeing as its getting a bit heavy

Young J4CKO picked up a magazine,

Opened the front page,

Aye Aye, she is a pretty lady, looks liek the one from the Aha video for "Take on Me"
Page two, she likes the gentleman with the mullet
Page three, they look friendly
Page four, he has taken her top of, boobies !
Page five, my god he is taking her knickers off,
Page six, My my she has a fine......Penis...


Honestly did not have a clue that was a thing, one of the biggest shocks of my life, wasnt sure how to process that, absolutely no education at all, gays were "wooly woofters", Dick Emery sketches, Mr Humphries "Im Free", anyone in ladies clothes was on Monty Python etc etc, so any education, once at an age to understand is valid and valuable, if only to avoid being stood looking confused and stupid in a Belgian sex shop clutching a magazine, not sure whether to run or buy it.

Edited by J4CKO on Tuesday 16th August 20:56

[crofty1984]

CaptainSlow said:

voyds9 said:

Some times as a straight white male I feel like an endangered species

Then I remember my white privilege.

Shut up and pay your taxes, that's quite enough from you.

I blame the patriarchy.

[Blue Oval84]

WinstonWolf said:

I'll be the judge of that. I find it insulting, if you want people to refer to you in a certain way it's only reasonable to afford them the same courtesy.

Do you also find it insulting when you're referred to as (I presume) heterosexual?

You realise that there's no connotations to this word don't you? "Cis" and "Trans" have their basis in chemistry as explained by an earlier poster, it is literally just the technical term for what you consider to be normal, and the opposite state which I presume you consider abnormal.

The problem with using the word "normal" is that other people also consider themselves "normal" and therefore it's not a very accurate term, what does "normal" mean? I'm cis-gender gay but I consider myself normal.

What a weird thing to get insulted by.

[usbooz]

Blue Oval84 said:

WinstonWolf said:

I'll be the judge of that. I find it insulting, if you want people to refer to you in a certain way it's only reasonable to afford them the same courtesy.

Do you also find it insulting when you're referred to as (I presume) heterosexual?

You realise that there's no connotations to this word don't you? "Cis" and "Trans" have their basis in chemistry as explained by an earlier poster, it is literally just the technical term for what you consider to be normal, and the opposite state which I presume you consider abnormal.

The problem with using the word "normal" is that other people also consider themselves "normal" and therefore it's not a very accurate term, what does "normal" mean? I'm cis-gender gay but I consider myself normal.

What a weird thing to get insulted by.

Well I can singlehandedly tick off as a member of all of the LGBTQ initials and I'm pretty normal too.

[J4CKO]

usbooz said:

Blue Oval84 said:

WinstonWolf said:

I'll be the judge of that. I find it insulting, if you want people to refer to you in a certain way it's only reasonable to afford them the same courtesy.

Do you also find it insulting when you're referred to as (I presume) heterosexual?

You realise that there's no connotations to this word don't you? "Cis" and "Trans" have their basis in chemistry as explained by an earlier poster, it is literally just the technical term for what you consider to be normal, and the opposite state which I presume you consider abnormal.

The problem with using the word "normal" is that other people also consider themselves "normal" and therefore it's not a very accurate term, what does "normal" mean? I'm cis-gender gay but I consider myself normal.

What a weird thing to get insulted by.

Well I can singlehandedly tick off as a member of all of the LGBTQ initials and I'm pretty normal too.

All ? now I am confused !

Also, and forgive my ignorance, the Q stands for Queer ? what is the difference between someone who identifies themselves as Queer vs someone who says they are Lesbian or Gay ? I thought "Queer" used to be a derogatory term that the Gay community have taken back ?

Ok, update, googled it, its a catch all term used by some LGBT folk to say not straight/hetero/ciswhatsit, ok, got it, but guessing its a bit self referential like Black people who use the N word as in its ok for them to use it but not all black people do and some hate its use, so it isnt something a straight person would use unless being pejorative (or perhaps as part of a known group including lGBT with a common understanding of what it means in its "taken back" context ?)

Edited by J4CKO on Tuesday 16th August 23:41

[Blue Oval84]

J4CKO said:

All ? now I am confused !

Also, and forgive my ignorance, the Q stands for Queer ? what is the difference between someone who identifies themselves as Queer vs someone who says they are Lesbian or Gay ? I thought "Queer" used to be a derogatory term that the Gay community have taken back ?

I'm obviously G in that list but even I'm not 100% clear on what the Q is for lol, personally I always thought the LGB bits were broad enough to cover most scenarios, I'm not sure what the Q adds.

[WinstonWolf]

Blue Oval84 said:

WinstonWolf said:

I'll be the judge of that. I find it insulting, if you want people to refer to you in a certain way it's only reasonable to afford them the same courtesy.

Do you also find it insulting when you're referred to as (I presume) heterosexual?

You realise that there's no connotations to this word don't you? "Cis" and "Trans" have their basis in chemistry as explained by an earlier poster, it is literally just the technical term for what you consider to be normal, and the opposite state which I presume you consider abnormal.

The problem with using the word "normal" is that other people also consider themselves "normal" and therefore it's not a very accurate term, what does "normal" mean? I'm cis-gender gay but I consider myself normal.

What a weird thing to get insulted by.

Nope, hetro is fine, cis isn't. I have no problem with people calling themselves unicorns if they wish, just don't use terms that others may find offensive.

Most of us don't need accurate descriptions, we're just blokes and women.

It doesn't matter if you find it weird, simply give the same courtesy that you would wish to receive.

[Blue Oval84]

WinstonWolf said:

It doesn't matter if you find it weird, simply give the same courtesy that you would wish to receive.

What on earth do you find offensive about it? It's just a medically correct term for describing someone who's biological sex matches their gender identity.

And personally I wouldn't be using "normal" to describe you, because a trans-gender person is just as likely to consider themselves normal, it's a subjective term. Feel free to make up a new word though if you don't like the correct English terminology

[FlyingMeeces]

J4CKO said:

All ? now I am confused !

Also, and forgive my ignorance, the Q stands for Queer ? what is the difference between someone who identifies themselves as Queer vs someone who says they are Lesbian or Gay ? I thought "Queer" used to be a derogatory term that the Gay community have taken back ?

Ok, update, googled it, its a catch all term used by some LGBT folk to say not straight/hetero/ciswhatsit, ok, got it, but guessing its a bit self referential like Black people who use the N word as in its ok for them to use it but not all black people do and some hate its use, so it isnt something a straight person would use unless being pejorative (or perhaps as part of a known group including lGBT with a common understanding of what it means in its "taken back" context ?)

Edited by J4CKO on Tuesday 16th August 23:41

Yep, 'Queer' was and still is quite often a word of hate and spite, which makes it all the more important to reclaim in some people's eyes. Very similar to assorted other words where you would expect and deserve some sort of consequence if you shouted it across the road to a group of people who could be described by that word, when you yourself would not be described by that word…

It's also become sort of its own thing as well as the catch-all - you get people who describe their sexuality specifically as queer and do not feel that other words adequately describe them.

But a sort of third function - if I'm out for drinks with 'all the queers' in my social circle, that includes people who aren't covered by any other umbrella term - various combinations of L, G, B T and then some. Especially for people a bit older than me I'd be very, very cautious in applying it to any one individual I didn't already know was comfortable with the term because even in my own age group there are people who associate it with some really hateful stuff.

[FlyingMeeces]

Janluke said:

I must admit I've never understood the whole trans thing. I wasnt prejudiced at all just didnt get it. I have recently returned from coaching at a youth sports camp aged 12-16. Before the students arrived we where told that one of kids who was "Janet" last year is now "John"(made up names ). I remember Janet as what I would call a tomboy, a slightly troubled child who never quite seemed comfortable or at ease. A year older John was a confident young man clearly happy with his own identity. Now the really interesting thing was how readily the other kids(many who hadn't seen John for a year) just accepted the situation. When coaching John I never once thought of him as a her it was obvious that he was a he. I've come away a little more educated and with a little more understanding

While children can be shockingly hateful sometimes (about anything!), the really serious problems, as always, come from the adults. When adults model being a decent human being about this stuff to youngsters, hey presto - for the most part, they go with it.

Best of luck to 'John'. There's a lot of hard crap in life we can't fix, but being shoehorned into the wrong gender is definitely something we can address. His risk of death by suicide before reaching full adulthood something like reduced by half or three-quarters as soon as he transitioned.

[jdw100]

Janluke said:

I must admit I've never understood the whole trans thing. I wasnt prejudiced at all just didnt get it. I have recently returned from coaching at a youth sports camp aged 12-16. Before the students arrived we where told that one of kids who was "Janet" last year is now "John"(made up names ). I remember Janet as what I would call a tomboy, a slightly troubled child who never quite seemed comfortable or at ease. A year older John was a confident young man clearly happy with his own identity. Now the really interesting thing was how readily the other kids(many who hadn't seen John for a year) just accepted the situation. When coaching John I never once thought of him as a her it was obvious that he was a he. I've come away a little more educated and with a little more understanding

That's a nice story to hear and what I was aiming with my post on page 1.

Kids just seen so more accepting these days. It has to be better than back when I was growing up.

J4CKOs post also rings true with with his comments about being taught that all gay people are 'woofters' and Dick Emery types.

So a few of the cool kids jump on the gender--fluid bandwagon....so what. Better we have kids feeling that they are able to announce they are this way, even if they are not, than people getting gay-bashed.

I hope in 20 years time this is not even discussion any more - people can be who they want to be without fear of prejudice.

I'd also like to add that I suggest many of the people here complaining about why should people have all these labels or boxes to tick are the sort of people that moan when they can't tick English as their nationality on a form, when you can have Scottish, Welsh or Irish.

Edited by jdw100 on Wednesday 17th August 02:40

[WinstonWolf]

Blue Oval84 said:

WinstonWolf said:

It doesn't matter if you find it weird, simply give the same courtesy that you would wish to receive.

What on earth do you find offensive about it? It's just a medically correct term for describing someone who's biological sex matches their gender identity.

And personally I wouldn't be using "normal" to describe you, because a trans-gender person is just as likely to consider themselves normal, it's a subjective term. Feel free to make up a new word though if you don't like the correct English terminology

It's irrelevant, do you want people to respect your wishes and not use terms that you find offensive? If so you also have to respect the wishes of others.

[FlyingMeeces]

You cannot, however, compel people to use words which are offensive to them: and setting up one half of a binary state of being as 'normal', therefore enabling you to declare all others, in an inborn and unchangeable state 'abnormal', and then implicitly insist that we refer to ourselves in that way, is most certainly offensive.

I'd go so far as to identify it as an attempt at bullying.

So sorry, but no dice. Would you like to make up another word for us to use? I'm not sure how well it'd catch on, mind.

[WinstonWolf]

FlyingMeeces said:

You cannot, however, compel people to use words which are offensive to them: and setting up one half of a binary state of being as 'normal', therefore enabling you to declare all others, in an inborn and unchangeable state 'abnormal', and then implicitly insist that we refer to ourselves in that way, is most certainly offensive.

I'd go so far as to identify it as an attempt at bullying.

So sorry, but no dice. Would you like to make up another word for us to use? I'm not sure how well it'd catch on, mind.

Bullying

Do you believe you can use offensive language then demand to be treated differently?

Please do not use cis, it is offensive. You can use male and female as has always been the way if you wish.

[FredClogs]

Obviously sexuality and gender are a large part of what make us who we are, or believe who we are - they are a large component of what Freud called our "Id" and if we don't balance our Id, Ego and Super ego well we become unhappy and eventually dysfunctional people.

I think the problem with the term "normal" is it tends to be extrapolated to a wider macro meaning when applied to a person. If my child had ginger hair (they haven't thank God) that would not be normal but to label them as not normal would be interpreted by their ego and the egos of others as implying some underlying general fault within that person. I think we can all understand that having rare or unusual or even common gender and sexuality identities is only a part of a person and how they want to perceive themselves and how their ego want them to represented as they move through the world. Being referred to as cis, normal or trans is not the same as being referred to as cisgendered or transgendered and if it's just a shortcut of language it's an ambiguous one.

Anyway it all falls over when you get to these people...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom#Sexual_...

[mph1977]

WinstonWolf said:

FlyingMeeces said:

You cannot, however, compel people to use words which are offensive to them: and setting up one half of a binary state of being as 'normal', therefore enabling you to declare all others, in an inborn and unchangeable state 'abnormal', and then implicitly insist that we refer to ourselves in that way, is most certainly offensive.

I'd go so far as to identify it as an attempt at bullying.

So sorry, but no dice. Would you like to make up another word for us to use? I'm not sure how well it'd catch on, mind.

Bullying

Do you believe you can use offensive language then demand to be treated differently?

Please do not use cis, it is offensive. You can use male and female as has always been the way if you wish.

what is your basis for asserting that the term cisgender is offensive ? other than your bloodyminded bigotry un encumbered by your utter lack of self awareness and insight as once again we come to the privleged party claiming to be offended by a term ywt happily slurring anyone different from them ...