Peugeot-Citroen agrees deal with GM to buy Vauxhall-Opel
Discussion
ash73 said:
Yes, it correctly predicted this outcome four months ago, but we should focus on the poor grammar.
No it didn't. What that story showed was that GM was losing money because German built Corsas were less profitable in the UK, which didn't make up for British built Astras becoming more profitable in the rest of Europe. Brexit helped the UK factories but the journalist really wanted to blame Brexit for something. Typical badge snob
So quite a tidy profit
I think he meant an operating profit, in the 21st Century.
I can't understand why anyone would want to buy a Vauxhall of any sort. Over the last 20 years I've classed the brand as:
Corsas driven by Chavs
Astras driven by Coppers
Zafiras driven by dowdy Mums who never lost their baby weight, or their angry, put-upon husbands who resent having so many children and tend to get a bit road-ragey despite driving one of the least cool cars on the road.
We did have an Insignia as a rental car in Spain last year and to its credit I actually found it very pleasant to drive and eminently capable as a family saloon. I'd never dream of walking into a Vauxhall showroom though, the brand screams out to me "people I do not want to be like".
Does Ellesmere Port still boast 'The Home Of The Astra' on the factory wall? I do fear for people in that part of the world who voted Brexit and 9 months later see one of the region's largest employers bought by the French. It surely won't bode well for them long-term, will it? I'd be amazed if this wasn't the going the same way as Rover and Longbridge.
PurpleTurtle said:
boyse7en said:
king arthur said:
It does seem odd to spend 1.9bn on something that hasn't made a profit this century.
Don't know if it is accurate, but Wikimedia says that GM bought Vauxhall in 1925 for £2.5m, which according to an online inflation calculator is £137m in today's moneySo quite a tidy profit
I can't understand why anyone would want to buy a Vauxhall of any sort. Over the last 20 years I've classed the brand as:
Corsas driven by Chavs
Astras driven by Coppers
Zafiras driven by dowdy Mums who never lost their baby weight, or their angry, put-upon husbands who resent having so many children and tend to get a bit road-ragey despite driving one of the least cool cars on the road.
We did have an Insignia as a rental car in Spain last year and to its credit I actually found it very pleasant to drive and eminently capable as a family saloon. I'd never dream of walking into a Vauxhall showroom though, the brand screams out to me "people I do not want to be like".
Does Ellesmere Port still boast 'The Home Of The Astra' on the factory wall? I do fear for people in that part of the world who voted Brexit and 9 months later see one of the region's largest employers bought by the French. It surely won't bode well for them long-term, will it? I'd be amazed if this wasn't the going the same way as Rover and Longbridge.
Well not "so" obvious to you. Nissan is NOW French, owned by Renault.
As long as it keeps British folks employed, who cares where the OWNERS are based.
Isn't Nissan one of the most "popular" plants in the UK. Obviously Japanese. Karasu no gyozui!
xjay1337 said:
Truckosaurus said:
MarshPhantom said:
I couldn't really care less where the profits go....
Indeed. By similar logic to suggests Land Rover is Indian and Lotus Malaysian, you can claim that Ferrari is British as FCA is Headquartered in London.Isn't Nissan one of the most "popular" plants in the UK. Obviously Japanese. Karasu no gyozui!
Totally agree with you. Its just idiotic badge snobs like purple turtle spew out that crap generalising. I could generalise on him about the BMW's he own's; but wont even bother to waste my time on it.
Those stereotypes only exist because people trot them out on these forums (just like "Vauxhalls are crap" "worst cars on the road" and such like.
Granted, the boggo models are nothing to get excited about, but then is a 1.4 Golf ? a 1.6 Focus ? how about a 1 litre Aygo ?
The notion that chavs or housewives all flock to a Vauxhall dealer to get a new car and never frequent the dealerships of other manufacturers is a bit silly.
The irony is I thnik Vauxhall will probably end up being the junk that people here often claim they already are. Lets be honest, PSA castoffs isn't going to be a great place to start building a car..
Crafty_ said:
bennyboydurham said:
PurpleTurtle said:
I can't understand why anyone would want to buy a Vauxhall of any sort. Over the last 20 years I've classed the brand as:
Corsas driven by Chavs
Astras driven by Coppers
Zafiras driven by dowdy Mums who never lost their baby weight, or their angry, put-upon husbands
Exactly this. The Opel brand at least suggests a certain Teutonic solidity whereas Vauxhall conjures up all the stereotypes you mention. That's not to say that Vauhxhall hasn't churned out a few decent motors in the past but the list is depressingly short - Manta, Astra GTE, Lotus Carlton, erm....Corsas driven by Chavs
Astras driven by Coppers
Zafiras driven by dowdy Mums who never lost their baby weight, or their angry, put-upon husbands
Granted, the boggo models are nothing to get excited about, but then is a 1.4 Golf ? a 1.6 Focus ? how about a 1 litre Aygo ?
The notion that chavs or housewives all flock to a Vauxhall dealer to get a new car and never frequent the dealerships of other manufacturers is a bit silly.
The irony is I thnik Vauxhall will probably end up being the junk that people here often claim they already are. Lets be honest, PSA castoffs isn't going to be a great place to start building a car..
davepoth said:
ash73 said:
Yes, it correctly predicted this outcome four months ago, but we should focus on the poor grammar.
No it didn't. What that story showed was that GM was losing money because German built Corsas were less profitable in the UK, which didn't make up for British built Astras becoming more profitable in the rest of Europe. Brexit helped the UK factories but the journalist really wanted to blame Brexit for something. 75% of the components are from mainland Europe, so cost 20% more now
Who knows what tariffs if Brexit happens
Why would a French company want to produce cars in the UK? They would be nuts to gamble & will want to punish us anyway
So yes, Brexit will be to blame when thousands of jobs go
davepoth said:
Technically both the Insignia and Mokka could be put on sale in the US pretty much straight away if the deal allows it, with similar access to Australia too.
Both the Mokka and Insignia are already sold by Holden.The Mokka was developed and is built by GM Korea, though.
The Insignia is sold globally, including the US and China, with Buick and Chevrolet badges on.
<edit> And the Mokka's already sold in the US...
http://www.buick.com/suvs/encore-compact-luxury-su...
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Tuesday 7th March 09:50
Escort Si-130 said:
Totally agree with you. Its just idiotic badge snobs like purple turtle spew out that crap generalising. I could generalise on him about the BMW's he own's; but wont even bother to waste my time on it.
Those stereotypes only exist because people trot them out on these forums (just like "Vauxhalls are crap" "worst cars on the road" and such like.
Granted, the boggo models are nothing to get excited about, but then is a 1.4 Golf ? a 1.6 Focus ? how about a 1 litre Aygo ?
The notion that chavs or housewives all flock to a Vauxhall dealer to get a new car and never frequent the dealerships of other manufacturers is a bit silly.
The irony is I thnik Vauxhall will probably end up being the junk that people here often claim they already are. Lets be honest, PSA castoffs isn't going to be a great place to start building a car..
You may call it badge snobbery, people within the industry would describe it as affiliation to a brand. Yes, I have owned several German marques largely due to their (perceived) reliability. That said, the Porsche 996 I owned was an absolute sCrafty_ said:
bennyboydurham said:
PurpleTurtle said:
I can't understand why anyone would want to buy a Vauxhall of any sort. Over the last 20 years I've classed the brand as:
Corsas driven by Chavs
Astras driven by Coppers
Zafiras driven by dowdy Mums who never lost their baby weight, or their angry, put-upon husbands
Exactly this. The Opel brand at least suggests a certain Teutonic solidity whereas Vauxhall conjures up all the stereotypes you mention. That's not to say that Vauhxhall hasn't churned out a few decent motors in the past but the list is depressingly short - Manta, Astra GTE, Lotus Carlton, erm....Corsas driven by Chavs
Astras driven by Coppers
Zafiras driven by dowdy Mums who never lost their baby weight, or their angry, put-upon husbands
Granted, the boggo models are nothing to get excited about, but then is a 1.4 Golf ? a 1.6 Focus ? how about a 1 litre Aygo ?
The notion that chavs or housewives all flock to a Vauxhall dealer to get a new car and never frequent the dealerships of other manufacturers is a bit silly.
The irony is I thnik Vauxhall will probably end up being the junk that people here often claim they already are. Lets be honest, PSA castoffs isn't going to be a great place to start building a car..
theap of a Friday car that left me so frustrated I would never touch the marque again. We own as a second car a 13yo Honda FR-V. It's a utility mum truck, but I can hardly claim any kind of snobbery driving that. In the mid-1990s I also owned through necessity a beat up Volvo 340DL Variomatic, arguably one of the least cool cars on the road. I know my place in the pecking order of motoring.
I also commented that the Insignia I spent a week driving was a very capable car, if you had bothered to read my post in full. I also mentioned 'the last twenty years' because, VX220 aside, the output of Vauxhall in that time has otherwise completely passed me by. In my youth we had the Astra/Nova GTE hot hatches, the Cavalier SRi 130, the daddy that was the Lotus Carlton, all great cars. Nowadays ... tumbleweed. I am sure there are Vauxhall owners reading this who will attest to the greatness of their cars (VXRs?) but they have completely gone under my radar. As a lifelong car enthusiast who tries to see the good in all marques then that is a problem for their brand.
In my opinion (this being a forum for people with opinions on cars, after all) Vauxhall have generally been making the beigest of beige cars for the last two decades, the lights-out-missionary-position of motoring. When our mum truck comes up for replacement we will be looking at Ford/Honda/VW/Nissan/Seat/Volvo/Honda/Toyota and many more (so hardly 'a badge snob') but absolutely not a Vauxhall. That is a problem for their Marketing department to solve, not me.
Thanks for the 'idiotic' label. Next time maybe try not to commit serial apostrophe abuse in the same sentence, it tends to undermine your point.
Escort Si-130 said:
Renault owns 44% of Nissan, very dangerously close to "owning" them.
Making your "Nissan are French" very dangerously close to being a fact but not actually being one The "alliance" will have been set up very deliberately the way it was, quite possibly not to infer ownership one way or the other. Nissan therefore remains Japanese.
On topic, I think Peugeot are making some nice cars at the minute. A friend has a 2008 which I think is very nice for what it is. I'd certainly look at Peugeot ahead of Vauxhall. My sister also just bought a Cactus, which is a funky little thing (I love the blisters).
I suspect there may be some mileage in Peugeot using Vauxhall here as a hedge on tariffs. If they are, very shrewd... Though the second auto tariffs are confirmed as zero, expect plants to go unless they can prove undeniable efficiency.
Murph7355 said:
Escort Si-130 said:
Renault owns 44% of Nissan, very dangerously close to "owning" them.
Making your "Nissan are French" very dangerously close to being a fact but not actually being one The French government owns 14% of PSA - yet the conspiracy theorists are putting it about that they pull the strings... A few years ago, GM owned 7% of PSA.
TooMany2cvs said:
davepoth said:
Technically both the Insignia and Mokka could be put on sale in the US pretty much straight away if the deal allows it, with similar access to Australia too.
Both the Mokka and Insignia are already sold by Holden.The Mokka was developed and is built by GM Korea, though.
The Insignia is sold globally, including the US and China, with Buick and Chevrolet badges on.
<edit> And the Mokka's already sold in the US...
http://www.buick.com/suvs/encore-compact-luxury-su...
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Tuesday 7th March 09:50
And as an added bonus if the UK gets trade deals with Australia and the US then all of a sudden the UK looks like a very good place to build cars, tariffs with the EU or not.
I was interviewed for the Pricing Leader role for Vauxhall UK a couple of years ago.
During a meeting with the FD he asked me what their challenges were. I said that during my time pricing for a large fleet lessor I couldn't write any Insignias for love nor money, the Korean alternatives to the Corsa are cheaper and better and that they are over reliant on shifting volume to Motability, he said I was spot on. I declined the invite back for a second interview.
iirc only vans are built in Luton and Corsas in Ellesmere, everything else is built elsewhere...Turkey?
The writing has been the wall for Vauxhall for the last 15 years.
During a meeting with the FD he asked me what their challenges were. I said that during my time pricing for a large fleet lessor I couldn't write any Insignias for love nor money, the Korean alternatives to the Corsa are cheaper and better and that they are over reliant on shifting volume to Motability, he said I was spot on. I declined the invite back for a second interview.
iirc only vans are built in Luton and Corsas in Ellesmere, everything else is built elsewhere...Turkey?
The writing has been the wall for Vauxhall for the last 15 years.
PurpleTurtle said:
You may call it badge snobbery, people within the industry would describe it as affiliation to a brand. Yes, I have owned several German marques largely due to their (perceived) reliability. That said, the Porsche 996 I owned was an absolute stheap of a Friday car that left me so frustrated I would never touch the marque again.
We own as a second car a 13yo Honda FR-V. It's a utility mum truck, but I can hardly claim any kind of snobbery driving that. In the mid-1990s I also owned through necessity a beat up Volvo 340DL Variomatic, arguably one of the least cool cars on the road. I know my place in the pecking order of motoring.
I also commented that the Insignia I spent a week driving was a very capable car, if you had bothered to read my post in full. I also mentioned 'the last twenty years' because, VX220 aside, the output of Vauxhall in that time has otherwise completely passed me by. In my youth we had the Astra/Nova GTE hot hatches, the Cavalier SRi 130, the daddy that was the Lotus Carlton, all great cars. Nowadays ... tumbleweed. I am sure there are Vauxhall owners reading this who will attest to the greatness of their cars (VXRs?) but they have completely gone under my radar. As a lifelong car enthusiast who tries to see the good in all marques then that is a problem for their brand.
In my opinion (this being a forum for people with opinions on cars, after all) Vauxhall have generally been making the beigest of beige cars for the last two decades, the lights-out-missionary-position of motoring. When our mum truck comes up for replacement we will be looking at Ford/Honda/VW/Nissan/Seat/Volvo/Honda/Toyota and many more (so hardly 'a badge snob') but absolutely not a Vauxhall. That is a problem for their Marketing department to solve, not me.
Thanks for the 'idiotic' label. Next time maybe try not to commit serial apostrophe abuse in the same sentence, it tends to undermine your point.
I think they suffer from not having any exciting product. Not much reason to go into their showroom if you aspire to GTI, GT86, ST, M series, AMG, DS, Cooper, MX5 etc etc. They are a brand which doesn't have an inspirational product to think that you'd like to own one day, but neither are they a brand for korean value, warranty & reliability. What they seem to sell is 0% credit rather than their brand and the cars themselves these days - far from the days of "once driven forever smitten". The tabloid marketing and the fact that most peoples experience of the brand will be a boggo rental probably lends itself to the chav image, justified or not. The reality of the motor industry is the press waxes on endlessly about GTI, ST, hybrid, electric etc and the punter buys the mid range - vauxhall just doesn't have its name attached to anything marketable for the people who buy the mid range because they like what the brand does in other areas.theap of a Friday car that left me so frustrated I would never touch the marque again. We own as a second car a 13yo Honda FR-V. It's a utility mum truck, but I can hardly claim any kind of snobbery driving that. In the mid-1990s I also owned through necessity a beat up Volvo 340DL Variomatic, arguably one of the least cool cars on the road. I know my place in the pecking order of motoring.
I also commented that the Insignia I spent a week driving was a very capable car, if you had bothered to read my post in full. I also mentioned 'the last twenty years' because, VX220 aside, the output of Vauxhall in that time has otherwise completely passed me by. In my youth we had the Astra/Nova GTE hot hatches, the Cavalier SRi 130, the daddy that was the Lotus Carlton, all great cars. Nowadays ... tumbleweed. I am sure there are Vauxhall owners reading this who will attest to the greatness of their cars (VXRs?) but they have completely gone under my radar. As a lifelong car enthusiast who tries to see the good in all marques then that is a problem for their brand.
In my opinion (this being a forum for people with opinions on cars, after all) Vauxhall have generally been making the beigest of beige cars for the last two decades, the lights-out-missionary-position of motoring. When our mum truck comes up for replacement we will be looking at Ford/Honda/VW/Nissan/Seat/Volvo/Honda/Toyota and many more (so hardly 'a badge snob') but absolutely not a Vauxhall. That is a problem for their Marketing department to solve, not me.
Thanks for the 'idiotic' label. Next time maybe try not to commit serial apostrophe abuse in the same sentence, it tends to undermine your point.
All that said there is not much point in spending £1.9bn to get a brand with no positive identity and then bin off most of its manufacturing. It's said that PSA wants Vauxhall/Opel to be an SUV brand. This makes sense to me when your own SUV's don't sell well and British SUV's have a good image. I have no doubt that with some "made in Britain/Germany" clever marketing the Opel/Vauxhall affordable SUV could sell well.
jjgreenwood said:
I think they suffer from not having any exciting product.
But they have done in the past - Monaro, VXR8, even the Corsa VXR Nurburgring was well regarded by various reviews, they made VXR models of small volume sellers to offer something that competitors didn't (Vectra/Insignia, Zafira etc), if you wanted non VXR they did big engined high spec Insignias too. Everyone pissed and moaned constantly about the Astra H VXR, so they made the J answer the criticisms.They've tried to cover a lot of bases - Corsas with built in bike carriers, latest model has wifi/built in connectivity, they've tried to cover various different sectors - Adam, Cascada, even a couple of SUVs to try and broaden appeal.
And the endless slagging off of "They're all s
te" "They're for chavs" "They're for people who've given up on life" just continues. If they had a genuine BMW/Merc/Lexus/whatever beater they'd still be slagged off as crap. They were in a no win situation with these people.For the most part the products aren't massively exciting, but neither are the products of the competitors, so why so much abuse? Yes the Vectra B was crap, but it was 20 years ago, the mk1 cavalier was equally crap, but that was 40 years ago! The competitors have made some pups in their time too.
I still don't understand the vitriol for the brand.
Crafty_ said:
But they have done in the past - Monaro, VXR8, even the Corsa VXR Nurburgring was well regarded by various reviews, they made VXR models of small volume sellers to offer something that competitors didn't (Vectra/Insignia, Zafira etc), if you wanted non VXR they did big engined high spec Insignias too. Everyone pissed and moaned constantly about the Astra H VXR, so they made the J answer the criticisms.
They've tried to cover a lot of bases - Corsas with built in bike carriers, latest model has wifi/built in connectivity, they've tried to cover various different sectors - Adam, Cascada, even a couple of SUVs to try and broaden appeal.
And the endless slagging off of "They're all ste" "They're for chavs" "They're for people who've given up on life" just continues. If they had a genuine BMW/Merc/Lexus/whatever beater they'd still be slagged off as crap. They were in a no win situation with these people.
For the most part the products aren't massively exciting, but neither are the products of the competitors, so why so much abuse? Yes the Vectra B was crap, but it was 20 years ago, the mk1 cavalier was equally crap, but that was 40 years ago! The competitors have made some pups in their time too.
I still don't understand the vitriol for the brand.
As I said its probably due to the marketing - tabloid 0% is rubbish for both residuals and brand image. It also does some serious damage to loyalty and renewals as why would anybody want to upgrade their 0% HP deal. Adam is another case in point, unlike every other auto manufacturer vauxhall managed to flood the market and fail to keep residuals high on their premium small car. The result - no matter how good it is they languish in large numbers on dealer forecourts and buyers have large amounts of negative equity 2 years into their 0% deals. Interest bearing PCP would have been a better option at least guaranteeing vauxhall could have set it's market price, monthly payment on a new car and residual values.They've tried to cover a lot of bases - Corsas with built in bike carriers, latest model has wifi/built in connectivity, they've tried to cover various different sectors - Adam, Cascada, even a couple of SUVs to try and broaden appeal.
And the endless slagging off of "They're all s
te" "They're for chavs" "They're for people who've given up on life" just continues. If they had a genuine BMW/Merc/Lexus/whatever beater they'd still be slagged off as crap. They were in a no win situation with these people.For the most part the products aren't massively exciting, but neither are the products of the competitors, so why so much abuse? Yes the Vectra B was crap, but it was 20 years ago, the mk1 cavalier was equally crap, but that was 40 years ago! The competitors have made some pups in their time too.
I still don't understand the vitriol for the brand.
It's not all damning though - they have had their successes mostly in places others don't look. Tigra was pretty successful, as was astra convertable. VXR brand whilst maligned by the press was fairly well received by the public. People would still like adam if it wasn't a depreciation trap. Zafira was ground breaking, but they didn't keep up with the segment. They make a popular product but then don't continue to develop it.
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