Half a million VWs recalled, sneaky emissions software.
Discussion
RYH64E said:
It's a bit suspicious that there haven't been any reassuring noises coming from VW about RotW diesels, if they could say that there was no problem with them then I'm sure that we'd have heard by now.
That's spot on. It is possible that they don't know or are keeping their powder dry, but, like you, I doubt it. There's the possibility that they have the post code of the skeletons in the cupboards of other car manufacturers. My money, like yours, is on there being a lot more to come.Pan Pan Pan said:
The irony of this so called environmental issue erupting in a country which for decades and decades, has produced and inflicted on the worlds environment, vast quantities of multi litre, grossly inefficient, overweight, over sized 10 -15 mpg on a good day gas guzzlers is really quite amusing.
One could say that perhaps they more than anybody needed to clean up their act, but the sight of acres and acres of six and 7 litre pick ups waiting to be sold, parked in fields outside Huston is a little sobering, when it comes to considering effects on the their environment.
Have to agree. What a mood swing from the country that gave us overground atomic bomb tests. One could say that perhaps they more than anybody needed to clean up their act, but the sight of acres and acres of six and 7 litre pick ups waiting to be sold, parked in fields outside Huston is a little sobering, when it comes to considering effects on the their environment.
OK, perhaps not the best of examples in relation to this scandal, but on the vee-hicle front, the last time I was over there they did give me the distinct impression that they like to burn fuel for 'fun'.
powerstroke said:
will climate scientists be held acountable for their poor testing and misleading information??
FFS!The test they fudged was for NOx.
A major contributor to photochemical smog, which is a particular problem for urban areas, especially in California.
It has nothing to do with climate science.
Best ride your hobby horse back to [-]NP&E[-] another thread.
Edited coz I forgot we were in NP&E
Edited by AW111 on Tuesday 29th September 09:04
Cobnapint said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
The irony of this so called environmental issue erupting in a country which for decades and decades, has produced and inflicted on the worlds environment, vast quantities of multi litre, grossly inefficient, overweight, over sized 10 -15 mpg on a good day gas guzzlers is really quite amusing.
One could say that perhaps they more than anybody needed to clean up their act, but the sight of acres and acres of six and 7 litre pick ups waiting to be sold, parked in fields outside Huston is a little sobering, when it comes to considering effects on the their environment.
Have to agree. What a mood swing from the country that gave us overground atomic bomb tests. One could say that perhaps they more than anybody needed to clean up their act, but the sight of acres and acres of six and 7 litre pick ups waiting to be sold, parked in fields outside Huston is a little sobering, when it comes to considering effects on the their environment.
OK, perhaps not the best of examples in relation to this scandal, but on the vee-hicle front, the last time I was over there they did give me the distinct impression that they like to burn fuel for 'fun'.
There's also the famous Ford Pinto court case, which this looks set to dwarf.
glazbagun said:
Cobnapint said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
The irony of this so called environmental issue erupting in a country which for decades and decades, has produced and inflicted on the worlds environment, vast quantities of multi litre, grossly inefficient, overweight, over sized 10 -15 mpg on a good day gas guzzlers is really quite amusing.
One could say that perhaps they more than anybody needed to clean up their act, but the sight of acres and acres of six and 7 litre pick ups waiting to be sold, parked in fields outside Huston is a little sobering, when it comes to considering effects on the their environment.
Have to agree. What a mood swing from the country that gave us overground atomic bomb tests. One could say that perhaps they more than anybody needed to clean up their act, but the sight of acres and acres of six and 7 litre pick ups waiting to be sold, parked in fields outside Huston is a little sobering, when it comes to considering effects on the their environment.
OK, perhaps not the best of examples in relation to this scandal, but on the vee-hicle front, the last time I was over there they did give me the distinct impression that they like to burn fuel for 'fun'.
There's also the famous Ford Pinto court case, which this looks set to dwarf.
AW111 said:
FFS!
The test they fudged was for NOx.
A major contributor to photochemical smog, which is a particular problem for urban areas, especially in California.
It has nothing to do with climate science.
Best ride your hobby horse back to [-]NP&E[-] another thread.
Edited coz I forgot we were in NP&E
The push for Diesel is on the basis of the misinformation around CO2 though.The test they fudged was for NOx.
A major contributor to photochemical smog, which is a particular problem for urban areas, especially in California.
It has nothing to do with climate science.
Best ride your hobby horse back to [-]NP&E[-] another thread.
Edited coz I forgot we were in NP&E
Edited by AW111 on Tuesday 29th September 09:04
RYH64E said:
Diesel isn't a big part of the US market, but it's huge in the rest of the world. If it transpires that there are millions of cars around the world that don't comply with the relevant legislation and need some kind of fix applying then the problems for VW will escalate very substantially. It's a bit suspicious that there haven't been any reassuring noises coming from VW about RotW diesels, if they could say that there was no problem with them then I'm sure that we'd have heard by now.
I don't think anybody knows. The gov's cannot act without proof that the cars will fail their emissions regulations (We assume they will not pass EU regs, but we don't have proof). VW don't know what action will be taken if they do fail.I'm assuming the EU will issue a large fine to be spent on "environmental" projects that will "offset" the effect of leaving the existing cars on the road. Then the EU citizen is not inconvenienced, no mechanical solution has to be found, VW get the slap on the wrist they deserve, and taxes keep rolling in.
Megaflow said:
61GT said:
ash73 said:
KTF said:
ash73 said:
Surprised at Audi.
The ECU is a shared component. Any of the group brand cars fitted with the engine/ECU combination will have this issue.I wouldn't at all surprised if VAG build the engines, with no idea which brand of car a particular engine will end up in, the ECM will most likely be flashed when it has been put in the car.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/scanda...
OddJoe said:
I'll take that bet....
Me too. The US in particular are out for blood. US laws have amazing reach and there are lots of ways they will proceed. I think it will possibly be the largest fine ever administered in the end. They have accrued about $7 billion so far to cover the costs, but I would expect that to rise. Thing may become a bit clearer when they issue their next quarterly report when they have to formalize the known costs in a provision in their financials.RDMcG said:
Me too. The US in particular are out for blood. US laws have amazing reach and there are lots of ways they will proceed. I think it will possibly be the largest fine ever administered in the end. They have accrued about $7 billion so far to cover the costs, but I would expect that to rise. Thing may become a bit clearer when they issue their next quarterly report when they have to formalize the known costs in a provision in their financials.
Yup, kind of the perfect opportunity, Foreign car maker, deceiving USA Govt, excess polluting plus diesel models which the US don't like.Toyota got a $1bn+ fine, VW's is going to me much higher and that's without all the class actions lining up.
I have a theory.
The US Government will have set out requirements for emissions and will also have explained how those emissions will be tested. They say random vehicles will be taken into a lab, a spectrum analyser (or some such bit of kit) will be attached to the exhaust and the motor will be run at 3,000 rpm for 5 minutes....or whatever other test procedure will apply. They will say that in order to qualify for the lower tax or other official process or tariff, emissions must not exceed certain levels, identified from the above processes.
VW say, OK, we will ensure that when those tests are conducted, our engines will comply. And they did.
The reality of daily use does of course produce totally different results but if the stipulated requirements during the test using the methods set out in advance, then all that VW could be accused of is not sticking to the 'spirit' of the legislation; what the legislation intended to do but in law, there is no such thing as 'spirit' - it's either yes or no.
There would need to be an implicit and explicit rule that says a manufacturer cannot include a programme to suit the test alone. There may well be but if not, I suspect that this is the case that VW lawyers may argue on.
As I say, just a theory!
The US Government will have set out requirements for emissions and will also have explained how those emissions will be tested. They say random vehicles will be taken into a lab, a spectrum analyser (or some such bit of kit) will be attached to the exhaust and the motor will be run at 3,000 rpm for 5 minutes....or whatever other test procedure will apply. They will say that in order to qualify for the lower tax or other official process or tariff, emissions must not exceed certain levels, identified from the above processes.
VW say, OK, we will ensure that when those tests are conducted, our engines will comply. And they did.
The reality of daily use does of course produce totally different results but if the stipulated requirements during the test using the methods set out in advance, then all that VW could be accused of is not sticking to the 'spirit' of the legislation; what the legislation intended to do but in law, there is no such thing as 'spirit' - it's either yes or no.
There would need to be an implicit and explicit rule that says a manufacturer cannot include a programme to suit the test alone. There may well be but if not, I suspect that this is the case that VW lawyers may argue on.
As I say, just a theory!
Digga said:
nyone surprised by any of this, from any part of the VAG group, has a very short or selective memory:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/scanda...
I know nothing about any bribes but prostitutes . . . my shift was keeping obs on a drug dealer and using a spare ground floor room as a point, one officer being eyes, the other comms. A gutty job in the main so I wandered in for 'a little touch of Harry in the night' sort of thing.http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/scanda...
I was somewhat surprised to find a few women in the room, obviously prostitutes. I approached the hotel manager and he said that they had to go somewhere. There was a big 'fair' in the town centre and businessmen were staying at the hotel. They would, it seems, move elsewhere if there was no room service.
It was, it appears, the norm.
oop north said:
PRTVR said:
On the lease/PCP deals, a friend at work last year had an Audi on one, when the car arrived in the glove box was some paperwork, the price paid for a £36000 car the lease company were paying £25000, our thoughts were that it was a way of moving cars without dropping the list price, getting away from the problems associated with dropping the price.
Would be interesting to see the invoice - the description might be right but there is a chance that the £25k is ex vat, so £30k inc VAT, making the difference a lot narrower. That said, there has in recent years been a lot of smoke and mirrors going on through pcp offers (and leasing - esp vw leasing - Golf R anyone?). I had a conversation with a Nissan dealer about a leaf pcp - the guaranteed value after three years was 30% higher than current retail value of a three year old one, and the deal included a discount off the list price and the £5k govt subsidy tooDerek Smith said:
Digga said:
nyone surprised by any of this, from any part of the VAG group, has a very short or selective memory:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/scanda...
I know nothing about any bribes but prostitutes . . . my shift was keeping obs on a drug dealer and using a spare ground floor room as a point, one officer being eyes, the other comms. A gutty job in the main so I wandered in for 'a little touch of Harry in the night' sort of thing.http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/scanda...
I was somewhat surprised to find a few women in the room, obviously prostitutes. I approached the hotel manager and he said that they had to go somewhere. There was a big 'fair' in the town centre and businessmen were staying at the hotel. They would, it seems, move elsewhere if there was no room service.
It was, it appears, the norm.
It's bad enough putting w
es on expenses when the trip is a legitimate one, but when it isn't - which presumably, by extension also means you are not actually doing the job you're paid to do, in the place you're actually supposed to be - it's a whole different level.StevieBee said:
There would need to be an implicit and explicit rule that says a manufacturer cannot include a programme to suit the test alone. There may well be but if not, I suspect that this is the case that VW lawyers may argue on.
You mean like the bit where you're asked during certification to declare if you have installed a 'defeat device'!40 CFR 86.1844-01 - Information requirements: Application for certification and submittal of information upon request. wrote:
(11) A list of all auxiliary emission control devices (AECD) installed on any applicable vehicles, including a justification for each AECD, the parameters they sense and control, a detailed justification of each AECD which results in a reduction in effectiveness of the emission control system, and rationale for why the AECD is not a defeat device as defined under §§ 86.1809-01 and 86.1809-10. For any AECD uniquely used at high altitudes, EPA may request engineering emission data to quantify any emission impact and validity of the AECD. For any AECD uniquely used on multi-fuel vehicles when operated on fuels other than gasoline, EPA may request engineering emission data to quantify any emission impact and validity of the AECD.
Munter said:
dmsims said:
and now SEAT
I hope this kills Diesel cars permanently
Ok could all the people who don't know that VW/AUDI/SEAT/Skoda are all one and the same company, with the same engines etc under the skin, please identify themselves for a selective culling.I hope this kills Diesel cars permanently
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