Junior Doctor's contracts petition

[s1962a]

Mr GrimNasty said:

Saying that w/e deaths were not a result of Drs not working w/e because no operations are done at w/e was just dishonest. My uncle had a colostomy reversal done on a Thursday, and there was no Dr around the following w/e when he started to complain of lung pain the nurse brushed him off, then he died of a clot the next day - completely avoidable if a skilled Dr had seen him.

Do you care if this skilled Dr was extra tired on that weekend due to working a really long week?

[Mr GrimNasty]

s1962a said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Saying that w/e deaths were not a result of Drs not working w/e because no operations are done at w/e was just dishonest. My uncle had a colostomy reversal done on a Thursday, and there was no Dr around the following w/e when he started to complain of lung pain the nurse brushed him off, then he died of a clot the next day - completely avoidable if a skilled Dr had seen him.

Do you care if this skilled Dr was extra tired on that weekend due to working a really long week?

Another dishonest representation from the list of campaign propaganda.

Being on call 24hrs, does not actual involve being dead on your feet for 24hrs, as you full well know.

Even a Dr in a coma would not miss such a simple thing anyway.

[IanA2]

s1962a said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Saying that w/e deaths were not a result of Drs not working w/e because no operations are done at w/e was just dishonest. My uncle had a colostomy reversal done on a Thursday, and there was no Dr around the following w/e when he started to complain of lung pain the nurse brushed him off, then he died of a clot the next day - completely avoidable if a skilled Dr had seen him.

Do you care if this skilled Dr was extra tired on that weekend due to working a really long week?

People who are not involved in the NHS have absolutely no conception of the hours worked by juniors, nor of the intensity. And it's better (a bit) than it used to be. 100 hours plus working weeks used to be common.

[s1962a]

IanA2 said:

s1962a said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Saying that w/e deaths were not a result of Drs not working w/e because no operations are done at w/e was just dishonest. My uncle had a colostomy reversal done on a Thursday, and there was no Dr around the following w/e when he started to complain of lung pain the nurse brushed him off, then he died of a clot the next day - completely avoidable if a skilled Dr had seen him.

Do you care if this skilled Dr was extra tired on that weekend due to working a really long week?

People who are not involved in the NHS have absolutely no conception of the hours worked by juniors, nor of the intensity. And it's better (a bit) than it used to be. 100 hours plus working weeks used to be common.

I have a couple of family members who are doctors (one is a JD) and I can see the pressures they come under from their work. It's a lot more than mine and my industry isn't exactly stress friendly. Should we be asking them to work more unsociable hours? or work them for less pay?

[IanA2]

Mr GrimNasty said:

s1962a said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Saying that w/e deaths were not a result of Drs not working w/e because no operations are done at w/e was just dishonest. My uncle had a colostomy reversal done on a Thursday, and there was no Dr around the following w/e when he started to complain of lung pain the nurse brushed him off, then he died of a clot the next day - completely avoidable if a skilled Dr had seen him.

Do you care if this skilled Dr was extra tired on that weekend due to working a really long week?

Another dishonest representation from the list of campaign propaganda.

Being on call 24hrs, does not actual involve being dead on your feet for 24hrs, as you full well know.

Even a Dr in a coma would not miss such a simple thing anyway.

Absolutely correct. I recall my wife doing a 72 hour stretches without sleep. Might be better these days, but 24 hours with no sleep would not surprise me.

[s1962a]

IanA2 said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

s1962a said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Saying that w/e deaths were not a result of Drs not working w/e because no operations are done at w/e was just dishonest. My uncle had a colostomy reversal done on a Thursday, and there was no Dr around the following w/e when he started to complain of lung pain the nurse brushed him off, then he died of a clot the next day - completely avoidable if a skilled Dr had seen him.

Do you care if this skilled Dr was extra tired on that weekend due to working a really long week?

Another dishonest representation from the list of campaign propaganda.

Being on call 24hrs, does not actual involve being dead on your feet for 24hrs, as you full well know.

Even a Dr in a coma would not miss such a simple thing anyway.

Absolutely correct. I recall my wife doing a 72 hour stretches without sleep. Might be better these days, but 24 hours with no sleep would not surprise me.

If I had 24 hours without sleep I doubt I would be very coherent or able to make life and death choices. Would you?

[Dixy]

Mr GrimNasty said:

Another dishonest representation from the list of campaign propaganda.

Being on call 24hrs, does not actual involve being dead on your feet for 24hrs, as you full well know.

Even a Dr in a coma would not miss such a simple thing anyway.

You certainly live up to your name, an F2 on call rarely gets time to pee never mind rest. There is never no doctor, there are frequently not enough to see everyone.
A doctor starting university today and paying for all their exams and training to get to be a consultant will have £200k of their money invested, seems reasonable they earn accordingly. But this thread is about junior doctors.

And yet again it has nothing to do with politics.

[IanA2]

s1962a said:

IanA2 said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

s1962a said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Saying that w/e deaths were not a result of Drs not working w/e because no operations are done at w/e was just dishonest. My uncle had a colostomy reversal done on a Thursday, and there was no Dr around the following w/e when he started to complain of lung pain the nurse brushed him off, then he died of a clot the next day - completely avoidable if a skilled Dr had seen him.

Do you care if this skilled Dr was extra tired on that weekend due to working a really long week?

Another dishonest representation from the list of campaign propaganda.

Being on call 24hrs, does not actual involve being dead on your feet for 24hrs, as you full well know.

Even a Dr in a coma would not miss such a simple thing anyway.

Absolutely correct. I recall my wife doing a 72 hour stretches without sleep. Might be better these days, but 24 hours with no sleep would not surprise me.

If I had 24 hours without sleep I doubt I would be very coherent or able to make life and death choices. Would you?

I think Mr Nasty is trying to say that he doesn't believe that people actually work for 24 hours without sleep. For those who have never experienced the length and intensity of JD's working hours, I can see how it's difficult to absorb that reality.

[turbobloke]

IanA2 said:

s1962a said:

IanA2 said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

s1962a said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Saying that w/e deaths were not a result of Drs not working w/e because no operations are done at w/e was just dishonest. My uncle had a colostomy reversal done on a Thursday, and there was no Dr around the following w/e when he started to complain of lung pain the nurse brushed him off, then he died of a clot the next day - completely avoidable if a skilled Dr had seen him.

Do you care if this skilled Dr was extra tired on that weekend due to working a really long week?

Another dishonest representation from the list of campaign propaganda.

Being on call 24hrs, does not actual involve being dead on your feet for 24hrs, as you full well know.

Even a Dr in a coma would not miss such a simple thing anyway.

Absolutely correct. I recall my wife doing a 72 hour stretches without sleep. Might be better these days, but 24 hours with no sleep would not surprise me.

If I had 24 hours without sleep I doubt I would be very coherent or able to make life and death choices. Would you?

I think Mr Nasty is trying to say that he doesn't believe that people actually work for 24 hours without sleep. For those who have never experienced the length and intensity of JD's working hours, I can see how it's difficult to absorb that reality.

Purely on the hours aspect, that must be tongue in cheek, surely. In my arid little spot in the evil private sector, when a client gets themselves deep in turd it's good for ths soul as well as the bank balance to help them out, including 48 hours or more working intensely when there's a deadline ahead, with occasional breaks only to eat, drink and excrete as two of those three can be done while working...the third can, but there are limits and I bet doctors won't soil their underwear either.

Sure, JDs work hard for long hours on demanding stuff, welcome to the club.

The other angle, entirely valid, goes beyond the number of hours per se and relates to the impact on quality of decision-making, particularly in terms of outcomes; even so, in the NHS people can still end up dead from bad decisions made while somebody was wide awake and alert.

Back on my turf, getting just one thing wrong for a client could cost them £millions, and in the near future as well where the work theme has a payout timescale for the client measured in months.

To use the nonsensical methodology of WTP ('willingness to pay') which is involved in the manufacture of ludicrous costings of a road traffic fatac, and for wry amusement only, a life lost was associated with the sum of £1,686,532 the last time I looked. As it may have increased recently we can take £2m. On that basis I could lose several lives in one 48hr period. The last 48 hour stint 'saved' about 10 lives, in the fantasy world of WTP. Cool.

[IanA2]

turbobloke said:

IanA2 said:

s1962a said:

IanA2 said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

s1962a said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Saying that w/e deaths were not a result of Drs not working w/e because no operations are done at w/e was just dishonest. My uncle had a colostomy reversal done on a Thursday, and there was no Dr around the following w/e when he started to complain of lung pain the nurse brushed him off, then he died of a clot the next day - completely avoidable if a skilled Dr had seen him.

Do you care if this skilled Dr was extra tired on that weekend due to working a really long week?

Another dishonest representation from the list of campaign propaganda.

Being on call 24hrs, does not actual involve being dead on your feet for 24hrs, as you full well know.

Even a Dr in a coma would not miss such a simple thing anyway.

Absolutely correct. I recall my wife doing a 72 hour stretches without sleep. Might be better these days, but 24 hours with no sleep would not surprise me.

If I had 24 hours without sleep I doubt I would be very coherent or able to make life and death choices. Would you?

I think Mr Nasty is trying to say that he doesn't believe that people actually work for 24 hours without sleep. For those who have never experienced the length and intensity of JD's working hours, I can see how it's difficult to absorb that reality.

Purely on the hours aspect, that must be tongue in cheek, surely. In my arid little spot in the evil private sector, when a client gets themselves deep in turd it's good for ths soul as well as the bank balance to help them out, including 48 hours or more working intensely when there's a deadline ahead, with occasional breaks only to eat, drink and excrete as two of those three can be done while working...the third can, but there are limits and I bet doctors won't soil their underwear either.

Sure, JDs work hard for long hours on demanding stuff, welcome to the club.

The other angle, entirely valid, goes beyond the number of hours per se and relates to the impact on quality of decision-making, particularly in terms of outcomes; even so, in the NHS people can still end up dead from bad decisions made while somebody was wide awake and alert.

Back on my turf, getting just one thing wrong for a client could cost them £millions, and in the near future as well where the work theme has a payout timescale for the client measured in months.

To use the nonsensical methodology of WTP ('willingness to pay') which is involved in the manufacture of nonsensical costings of a road traffic fatac, and for wry amusement only, a life lost was associated with the sum of £1,686,532 and as it may have increased recently we can take £2m. On that basis I could lose several lives in one 48hr period. The last 48 hour stint 'saved' about 10 lives, in the fantasy world of wtp. Cool.

So you work overnighters and excessive hours on a rostered and regular basis year after year. So you know what it's like.

[turbobloke]

IanA2 said:

So you work overnighters and excessive hours on a rostered and regular basis year after year. So you know what it's like.

48 hours isn't common; is it common for JDs?

24 hours is regular but it isn't rostered, clients aren't thoughtful enough to plan their fkups on a timetabled basis, but with junior doctors complaining about still 'having' to work 100 hours per week that's only just over 14 hours per day.

I thought I had read somewhere that in the USA there's a regulation stipulating that doctors must not work more than 80 hours in a week. Is there no such figure for the UK?

Is this (below) total rowlocks regarding the EU?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/108187...

[bodhi]

Dixy said:

bodhi, great idea, just one question, where are you going to find these extra GPs, from leaving school it takes at least 12 years and we don't have enough GPs as it is. They have been shat upon by HMG so many times that there are far more retiring than entering.
Doctors are a finite and valuable resource that HMG totally fail to understand.

A close family member is a GP, and to be honest most of her grievances aren't with HMG, but the legions of clipboard wielding fools she has to deal with i.e good old NHS Management again. In fact I remember speaking to her around GE time and she mentioned that is Milliband got in she was leaving the country.

But as mentioned I was looking in purely layman's terms, as round here certainly, the biggest concerns around the NHS are A n E and the stress that is under, but then I also live in Stafford, so may not be too typical round here for obvious reasons.

[IanA2]

turbobloke said:

48 hours isn't common; is it common for JDs?

24 hours is regular but it isn't rostered, clients aren't thoughtful enough to plan their fkups on a timetabled basis, but with junior doctors complaining about still 'having' to work 100 hours per week that's only just over 14 hours per day.

I thought I had read somewhere that in the USA there's a regulation stipulating that doctors must not work more than 80 hours in a week. Is there no such figure for the UK?

Is this (below) total rowlocks regarding the EU?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/108187...

I give up.

[turbobloke]

IanA2 said:

turbobloke said:

48 hours isn't common; is it common for JDs?

24 hours is regular but it isn't rostered, clients aren't thoughtful enough to plan their fkups on a timetabled basis, but with junior doctors complaining about still 'having' to work 100 hours per week that's only just over 14 hours per day.

I thought I had read somewhere that in the USA there's a regulation stipulating that doctors must not work more than 80 hours in a week. Is there no such figure for the UK?

Is this (below) total rowlocks regarding the EU?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/108187...

I give up.

What a luxury

If you have any concerns with the link, it was written around the relevant BMA committee's commentary so I thought it would be better than give-up quality.

[Dixy]

turbobloke said:

As it may have increased recently we can take £2m. On that basis I could lose several lives in one 48hr period. The last 48 hour stint 'saved' about 10 lives, in the fantasy world of WTP. Cool.

A client can get more money, no one can get a second life, on a daily basis doctors stop many loosing their only one.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

turbobloke said:

As it may have increased recently we can take £2m. On that basis I could lose several lives in one 48hr period. The last 48 hour stint 'saved' about 10 lives, in the fantasy world of WTP. Cool.

A client can get more money, no one can get a second life, on a daily basis doctors stop many loosing their only one.

You must have missed it where I said:

and for wry amusement only

[Countdown]

IanA2 said:

So you work overnighters and excessive hours on a rostered and regular basis year after year. So you know what it's like.

In a thread some years ago about Academies Turbobloke stated that he'd built 80 academies. In previous roles I've been involved in the construction of Academies (as the project Finance lead) so I know what's involved in their construction and how ridiculous it would be for any ONE individual to make that statement.

His expertise seems to rely wholly on Google. Therefore I'd take any assertion about "working 72 hours to meet clients needs" with a large pinch of "PH Director" brand salt.

[968]

turbobloke said:

Purely on the hours aspect, that must be tongue in cheek, surely. In my arid little spot in the evil private sector, when a client gets themselves deep in turd it's good for ths soul as well as the bank balance to help them out, including 48 hours or more working intensely when there's a deadline ahead, with occasional breaks only to eat, drink and excrete as two of those three can be done while working...the third can, but there are limits and I bet doctors won't soil their underwear either.

Sure, JDs work hard for long hours on demanding stuff, welcome to the club.

Sorry, how do you know what their hours are like or how demanding they are? You have no idea in the slightest. You also have no idea what sort of decisions they are called upon to make whilst tired.

turbobloke said:

The other angle, entirely valid, goes beyond the number of hours per se and relates to the impact on quality of decision-making, particularly in terms of outcomes; even so, in the NHS people can still end up dead from bad decisions made while somebody was wide awake and alert.

So it's ok to have tired junior doctors because people could die anyway?

turbobloke said:

Back on my turf, getting just one thing wrong for a client could cost them £millions, and in the near future as well where the work theme has a payout timescale for the client measured in months.

To use the nonsensical methodology of WTP ('willingness to pay') which is involved in the manufacture of ludicrous costings of a road traffic fatac, and for wry amusement only, a life lost was associated with the sum of £1,686,532 the last time I looked. As it may have increased recently we can take £2m. On that basis I could lose several lives in one 48hr period. The last 48 hour stint 'saved' about 10 lives, in the fantasy world of WTP. Cool.

Oh that's alright then, a life is only worth £1.6mil approx so actually it's not as important as whatever it is you do. I'm sure you think that's hilariously funny. It isn't. Just insufferable smug nonsense.

[Dixy]

turbobloke said:

Dixy said:

turbobloke said:

As it may have increased recently we can take £2m. On that basis I could lose several lives in one 48hr period. The last 48 hour stint 'saved' about 10 lives, in the fantasy world of WTP. Cool.

A client can get more money, no one can get a second life, on a daily basis doctors stop many loosing their only one.

You must have missed it where I said:

and for wry amusement only

You may like to explain to grimnasty your wry amusement at loss of life.

[968]

turbobloke said:

May I enquire as to whether that means higher actually on those days, or arising from admissions on those days? Who found that, if you recall? Did they miss any variables?!

This ^ isn't irrelevant but getting back to the JD strikes, as time goes by this activism risks playing into the govt's hands in terms of public opinion swinging against JDs as more operations are cancelled and more bad press emerges associated with that. To most people, JDs are well-paid.

Actually the majority of the public feel that JDs aren't paid well and should be paid more (which is not what they are asking for) and sympathise with the strike. Secondly, the cancellations of operations was tiny compared to the daily NHS management disasters and underinvestment from the Government.

https://twitter.com/cpeedell/status/68684189598994...