Half a million VWs recalled, sneaky emissions software.
Discussion
StevieBee said:
There would need to be an implicit and explicit rule that says a manufacturer cannot include a programme to suit the test alone.
There is. Such a defeat 'programme' is explicitly outlawed. Off the top of my head its 203a3B of the clean air act and it is the basis of the EPA charge/complaint.fido said:
StevieBee said:
There would need to be an implicit and explicit rule that says a manufacturer cannot include a programme to suit the test alone. There may well be but if not, I suspect that this is the case that VW lawyers may argue on.
You mean like the bit where you're asked during certification to declare if you have installed a 'defeat device'!40 CFR 86.1844-01 - Information requirements: Application for certification and submittal of information upon request. wrote:
(11) A list of all auxiliary emission control devices (AECD) installed on any applicable vehicles, including a justification for each AECD, the parameters they sense and control, a detailed justification of each AECD which results in a reduction in effectiveness of the emission control system, and rationale for why the AECD is not a defeat device as defined under §§ 86.1809-01 and 86.1809-10. For any AECD uniquely used at high altitudes, EPA may request engineering emission data to quantify any emission impact and validity of the AECD. For any AECD uniquely used on multi-fuel vehicles when operated on fuels other than gasoline, EPA may request engineering emission data to quantify any emission impact and validity of the AECD.
40 CFR 86.1844-01 Any officer found to have been slaughtered and replaced by a shape-changing chameleonic life form shall forfeit all pension rights.
</Kryten>
FYI
Volkswagen Group sells passenger cars under the Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and Volkswagen marques; motorcycles under the Ducati brand; and commercial vehicles under the MAN, Scania, Neoplan and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles marques
Didn't know they owned 20% of Suzuki until a few months ago
Volkswagen Group sells passenger cars under the Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and Volkswagen marques; motorcycles under the Ducati brand; and commercial vehicles under the MAN, Scania, Neoplan and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles marques
Didn't know they owned 20% of Suzuki until a few months ago
RDMcG said:
OddJoe said:
I'll take that bet....
Me too...IMO The only hope for VW is that the 'real world' data is not nearly as bad as reported. Granted it has to be a LOT better to be at all mitigating but the group who did the tests... http://www.theicct.org/about-icct claim to provide 'unbiased research and technical and scientific analysis' with a goal to, among other things; 'mitigate climate change'. Rightly or wrongly that makes me instantly suspicious of their 'unbiased research'. Presumably there will now be dozens of similar studies going on.
Munter said:
dmsims said:
and now SEAT
I hope this kills Diesel cars permanently
Ok could all the people who don't know that VW/AUDI/SEAT/Skoda are all one and the same company, with the same engines etc under the skin, please identify themselves for a selective culling.I hope this kills Diesel cars permanently
Pan Pan Pan said:
Any person who purports to be any kind of motoring enthusiast, who then attacks the fuel choice of another motorist, is naively doing the ecof*ckwits work for them. You might have heard of the old divide and conquer strategy? Well that is exactly what those Knee jerk specialist calling for a ban on diesels are doing now, and as posted before, once they have got rid of diesels, they are going to start in on ridding the world of
petrol engined vehicles.
The root cause of just about every type of pollution one could care to mention, has a little old human at the bottom of it, But we don't hear people bleating on about banning the production of children to `Save the Planet' do we?
The duplicity of the ecof*ckwits is truly astounding, yet no one bleats that we should ban all ecof*ckwits.
So just as in this case, don't get carried along with all the knee jerk idiots who want to ban diesels in a kind of mob frenzy attack, and defend the cause of motoring generally, rather than attack another part of it which just happens to different to the one you use. There are enough threats to motorists rights already without some of us jumping on the ecof*ckwits band wagon as well.
Not looking good for dmsims....petrol engined vehicles.
The root cause of just about every type of pollution one could care to mention, has a little old human at the bottom of it, But we don't hear people bleating on about banning the production of children to `Save the Planet' do we?
The duplicity of the ecof*ckwits is truly astounding, yet no one bleats that we should ban all ecof*ckwits.
So just as in this case, don't get carried along with all the knee jerk idiots who want to ban diesels in a kind of mob frenzy attack, and defend the cause of motoring generally, rather than attack another part of it which just happens to different to the one you use. There are enough threats to motorists rights already without some of us jumping on the ecof*ckwits band wagon as well.
glazbagun said:
Burwood said:
FYI
Didn't know they owned 20% of Suzuki until a few months ago
Ironically they fell out because VW wasn't sharing tech and Suzuki weren't buying VW diesels. Bet someone's feeling pretty smug in Suzuki right now. Didn't know they owned 20% of Suzuki until a few months ago
Edited by glazbagun on Tuesday 29th September 15:19
Looks like they have gone for the retrofit option: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/29/us-volks...
FiF said:
Munter said:
dmsims said:
and now SEAT
I hope this kills Diesel cars permanently
Ok could all the people who don't know that VW/AUDI/SEAT/Skoda are all one and the same company, with the same engines etc under the skin, please identify themselves for a selective culling.I hope this kills Diesel cars permanently
Pan Pan Pan said:
Any person who purports to be any kind of motoring enthusiast, who then attacks the fuel choice of another motorist, is naively doing the ecof*ckwits work for them. You might have heard of the old divide and conquer strategy? Well that is exactly what those Knee jerk specialist calling for a ban on diesels are doing now, and as posted before, once they have got rid of diesels, they are going to start in on ridding the world of
petrol engined vehicles.
The root cause of just about every type of pollution one could care to mention, has a little old human at the bottom of it, But we don't hear people bleating on about banning the production of children to `Save the Planet' do we?
The duplicity of the ecof*ckwits is truly astounding, yet no one bleats that we should ban all ecof*ckwits.
So just as in this case, don't get carried along with all the knee jerk idiots who want to ban diesels in a kind of mob frenzy attack, and defend the cause of motoring generally, rather than attack another part of it which just happens to different to the one you use. There are enough threats to motorists rights already without some of us jumping on the ecof*ckwits band wagon as well.
Not looking good for dmsims....petrol engined vehicles.
The root cause of just about every type of pollution one could care to mention, has a little old human at the bottom of it, But we don't hear people bleating on about banning the production of children to `Save the Planet' do we?
The duplicity of the ecof*ckwits is truly astounding, yet no one bleats that we should ban all ecof*ckwits.
So just as in this case, don't get carried along with all the knee jerk idiots who want to ban diesels in a kind of mob frenzy attack, and defend the cause of motoring generally, rather than attack another part of it which just happens to different to the one you use. There are enough threats to motorists rights already without some of us jumping on the ecof*ckwits band wagon as well.
There is a huge difference between MMGW and local pollution in city centres, which is where diesel is the problem. Yes, diesel is cleaner than it used to be but the number of diesel vehicles has increased exponentially since the early 90s.
KTF said:
Looks like they have gone for the retrofit option: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/29/us-volks...
Presumably thats going to mean fitting all these cars with adblue? If so they're going to burn though the 6.5bn they've set aside pretty quickly just on the recall!fblm said:
KTF said:
Looks like they have gone for the retrofit option: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/29/us-volks...
Presumably thats going to mean fitting all these cars with adblue? If so they're going to burn though the 6.5bn they've set aside pretty quickly just on the recall!Cobnapint said:
fblm said:
Presumably thats going to mean fitting all these cars with adblue?
That's an awful lot of p*ss if that's going to be the case.Time to start up a DEF business me thinks.
Burwood said:
Adding this system will mean the loss of boot space and increase running costs (buying top ups). Im sure VW will have a 'package' to offer customers. I wouldn't rule out VW asking its dealers to contribute to this mess.
There is a lot more to it than just adding a tank to the boot. AIUI there's the tank, several temp and presure sensors, probably a control module of some kind, a cooler, different EGR unit and a different cat. The total in parts alone is apparently close to $2500. Additionally remember that even the Passat with all this crap fitted still produced 5-20 times the legal NOx limit so presumably there are still going to be some major compromises to be made with the regular map.fblm said:
Presumably thats going to mean fitting all these cars with adblue? If so they're going to burn though the 6.5bn they've set aside pretty quickly just on the recall!
A friend in the US has a Passat and that uses urea/AdBlue treatment, I assume that one meets the requirements. It seems the smaller vehicles weren't fitted with it, but now need to be. Oops.Gareth79 said:
A friend in the US has a Passat and that uses urea/AdBlue treatment, I assume that one meets the requirements...
Apparently it's better but still not enough...http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/heres-mig...
another article
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emis...
this suggests sw for some sw/hw for others. and it reads as though this is for the uk.
if they can sort this with just sw and the cars are still driveable, they are nuts to have broken the rules.
it seemed like scr was needed in the us, but perhaps not in the uk.
owners must be a bit worried about taking a hit in performance and mpg. some might be minded to demand their money back as its 'not the car they test drove' and they may well have a good point. i wonder if it will be mandatory, or whether the dealer will say 'here is the free mod, if you 'really' want it, wink, wink'
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emis...
this suggests sw for some sw/hw for others. and it reads as though this is for the uk.
if they can sort this with just sw and the cars are still driveable, they are nuts to have broken the rules.
it seemed like scr was needed in the us, but perhaps not in the uk.
owners must be a bit worried about taking a hit in performance and mpg. some might be minded to demand their money back as its 'not the car they test drove' and they may well have a good point. i wonder if it will be mandatory, or whether the dealer will say 'here is the free mod, if you 'really' want it, wink, wink'
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