The 'No to the EU' campaign

[Phud]

davepoth said:

I don't get the roaming thing. If the UK wasn't part of the EU it could have unilaterally legislated to stop any mobile company in the UK charging extra for roaming. It would have raised tariffs generally (and that's what will happen EU wide) but they could have done it. Within the EU it would have been impossible since it would have treated UK citizens better than EU ones.

Its simple, if mobile companies want to they could not have roaming charges with any other operator, they want profit.

The EU is claiming they are saving the cost, they are not. As we move to all IP and VoIP calls most bills will migraste to a all you can use profile not a cost per minute.

[Cobnapint]

Ridgemont said:

hidetheelephants said:

Mr_B said:

///ajd said:

remember - a brexiter brought up roaming charges on this thread - why?

I think it was some dopey pro-EU MP on Question Time who listed about 3 things the EU had done that were good and off benefit to the British people and proof of how wise it would be to vote remain. Listing reducing roaming charges as one was a tiny bit stupid for 40 years of membership.
Since then I think it's provides something of a laugh.

Jess Phillips brought it up, shortly before stating the whole in/out debate bored her to tears.

Figures quite prominently on Dave's euro pamphlet (page 9).

'From next year, mobile phone roaming charges will be abolished across the EU, saving UK customers up to 38p per minute on calls.'

Feeble.

And from the man himself...16:10 onwards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR8q6rePXkI

[Sway]

///ajd said:

digimeistter said:

Erm Norway and Switzerland are not in the EU yet will have no roaming charges too.

Erm, but they do pay to be in and benefit from the EFTA, including the four freedoms.

I've posted links to Swiss Government webpages showing visa criteria and using the word 'quota' in relation to EU residency permits.

I have therefore proved that 'the four freedoms' are significantly different in practice between us and CH.

So please stop throwing that line out, as it's wilfully misrepresenting reality.

[Sway]

On a note related to a different branch of the debate, poll results from farmer's weekly are in:

https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/exclusive-survey-reveal...

Usual poll methodology crap aside, shows they're not massively worried about 'losing CAP subsidies' - with the highest farming related decision factor being over regulation... Note for farmers it's not just the final product specification that's regulated, but things like the crop type, process etc.

[///ajd]

Sway said:

On a note related to a different branch of the debate, poll results from farmer's weekly are in:

https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/exclusive-survey-reveal...

Usual poll methodology crap aside, shows they're not massively worried about 'losing CAP subsidies' - with the highest farming related decision factor being over regulation... Note for farmers it's not just the final product specification that's regulated, but things like the crop type, process etc.

Poll was self-selecting.....it is likely that brexit farmers would be more likely to bother completing it.

[turbobloke]

///ajd said:

Sway said:

On a note related to a different branch of the debate, poll results from farmer's weekly are in:

https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/exclusive-survey-reveal...

Usual poll methodology crap aside, shows they're not massively worried about 'losing CAP subsidies' - with the highest farming related decision factor being over regulation... Note for farmers it's not just the final product specification that's regulated, but things like the crop type, process etc.

Poll was self-selecting.....it is likely that brexit farmers would be more likely to bother completing it.

Something similar may apply to PH polls on specific Brexit factors with a massive 70-odd respondents, did you forget that when commenting earlier?

[Sway]

They even point it out...

Plus, if as is often stated farmers rely on CAP payments to protect themselves from evil British supermarkets, you'd think the self selection would be from those vociferously arguing for their livelihoods.

[///ajd]

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

Sway said:

On a note related to a different branch of the debate, poll results from farmer's weekly are in:

https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/exclusive-survey-reveal...

Usual poll methodology crap aside, shows they're not massively worried about 'losing CAP subsidies' - with the highest farming related decision factor being over regulation... Note for farmers it's not just the final product specification that's regulated, but things like the crop type, process etc.

Poll was self-selecting.....it is likely that brexit farmers would be more likely to bother completing it.

Something similar may apply to PH polls on specific Brexit factors with a massive 70-odd respondents, did you forget that when commenting earlier?

Indeed, glad you made the connection, the poll I posted was aimed only at brexiters, and was designed to appeal only to them. It then gave a fairly even choice between economy and immigration. The rest is history.

[///ajd]

Sway said:

They even point it out...

Plus, if as is often stated farmers rely on CAP payments to protect themselves from evil British supermarkets, you'd think the self selection would be from those vociferously arguing for their livelihoods.

They reluctantly admit it, then try and mitigate it by saying the sample was still large.

It would be interesting to run a poll with farmers to see if they liked Prof Minfords idea to expose UK farmers to EU tariffs when they export to EU, but levy no tariff on imported food from anywhere. I'm sure loads of farmers would think that idea - from the head economist from the official vote leave campaign - was terrific. Ditto car makers.

[Phud]

///ajd said:

They reluctantly admit it, then try and mitigate it by saying the sample was still large.

It would be interesting to run a poll with farmers to see if they liked Prof Minfords idea to expose UK farmers to EU tariffs when they export to EU, but levy no tariff on imported food from anywhere. I'm sure loads of farmers would think that idea - from the head economist from the official vote leave campaign - was terrific. Ditto car makers.

Utter rubbish, the tariff was WTO not no tariff.

[///ajd]

KrissKross said:

AJD, which bit of the FACTS they are discussing here is incorrect:

https://youtu.be/_c8jznwzVbE

An interesting video. Aaron Banks laughing about the state of the national debt at 5:40 seals my opinion of him.

Anyway, to look at the 'facts' thay you seem so keen to debate.


1. Mogg makes a cheap shot about BoE not mentioning Brexit as key domestic financial risk. The fact that they consider brexit unlikely is probably the main reason they didn't mention it. Mark Carney was more direct when discussing it specifically.

2. Banks expresses the view that quantitive easing is possibly the biggest risk - no need to argue but that doesn't mean brexit isn't still a massive risk.

3. Banks then seemlessly moves the discussion to immigration - something that most brexiters don't care about according to some on here - mention of 3m immigrants forcing down wages in UK. He makes the point that wages would go up; no mention of business struggling to get resources they need, nor that most SMEs and business support it. No mention on the impact on competitiveness of UK if our cost base goes up, nor does he admit he has employed EU migrants in his own leave.eu campaign. This implies of course they don't want a flexcit and want to tear up the four freedoms asap. And it seems our EU free market access in the process.

4. They then mock the idea that the UK would impose trade tariffs to EU imports - but they are clearly only referring to EU imports, and not what tariffs the EU apply externally - which of coirse would apply given the discussion above.

5. Banks then laughs (like a bit of a tw@t really) at doubling of debt, even though Osbourne has halved UK deficit. I'm no fan of auesterity but the implication is that banks would have been far more ruthless in making cuts, or clearly has no real clue how difficult making govt cuts is.

6. They then really make themselves look daft. Banks jokes about invoking Art 50 straight away, and the even more naive Tice then says it need not take 2 years with right nego team - lets get best from business not civil servants. They then laugh about how long it takes to make agreement with 28 nations, and how it would be much quicker with one nation. EU takes 7 years to 2023 etc. They seem to fail to make the rather obvious connection that they'd still need to negotiate with the EU. And the EU team of civil servants will turn to the 'best from business' and say
a) who the fck are you, bring on my civil servant counterpart
b) this will take as long as we like, not as fast as you think - and on ours terms you naive muppets

They really sound like total amateurs here, have not got a clue how these things work.

7. The final nail is when they admit tariffs would be crippling for farming. They admit that high EU tariffs are killing african farmers, but seem happy for these tariffs to apply to UK farmers! Unbelievable.

Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 1st May 19:44

[///ajd]

KrissKross said:

AJD, which bit of the FACTS they are discussing here is incorrect:

https://youtu.be/_c8jznwzVbE

An interesting video. Aaron Banks laughing about the state of the national debt at 5:40 seals my opinion of him.

Anyway, to look at the 'facts' that you seem so keen to debate.


1. Mogg makes a cheap shot about BoE not mentioning Brexit as key domestic financial risk. The fact that they consider brexit unlikely is probably the main reason they didn't mention it. Mark Carney was more direct when discussing it specifically.

2. Banks expresses the view that quantitive easing is possibly the biggest risk - no need to argue but that doesn't mean brexit isn't still a massive risk.

3. Banks then seemlessly moves the discussion to immigration - something that most brexiters don't care about according to some on here - mention of 3m immigrants forcing down wages in UK. He makes the point that wages would go up; no mention of business struggling to get resources they need, nor that most SMEs and business support it. No mention on the impact on competitiveness of UK if our cost base goes up, nor does he admit he has employed EU migrants in his own leave.eu campaign. This implies of course they don't want a flexcit and want to tear up the four freedoms asap. And it seems our EU free market access in the process.

4. They then mock the idea that the UK would impose trade tariffs to EU imports - but they are clearly only referring to EU imports, and not what tariffs the EU apply externally - which of coirse would apply given the discussion above.

5. Banks then laughs (like a bit of a tw@t really) at doubling of debt, even though Osbourne has halved UK deficit. I'm no fan of auesterity but the implication is that banks would have been far more ruthless in making cuts, or clearly has no real clue how difficult making govt cuts is.

6. They then really make themselves look daft. Banks jokes about invoking Art 50 straight away, and the even more naive Tice then says it need not take 2 years with right nego team - lets get best from business not civil servants. They then laugh about how long it takes to make agreement with 28 nations, and how it would be much quicker with one nation. EU takes 7 years to 2023 etc. They seem to fail to make the rather obvious connection that they'd still need to negotiate with the EU. And the EU team of civil servants will turn to the 'best from business' and say
a) who the fck are you, bring on my civil servant counterpart
b) this will take as long as we like, not as fast as you think - and on ours terms you naive muppets

They really sound like total amateurs here, have not got a clue how these things work.

7. The final nail is when they admit tariffs would be crippling for farming. They admit that high EU tariffs are killing african farmers, but seem happy for these tariffs to apply to UK farmers! Unbelievable!

Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 1st May 19:44

[///ajd]

Phud said:

///ajd said:

They reluctantly admit it, then try and mitigate it by saying the sample was still large.

It would be interesting to run a poll with farmers to see if they liked Prof Minfords idea to expose UK farmers to EU tariffs when they export to EU, but levy no tariff on imported food from anywhere. I'm sure loads of farmers would think that idea - from the head economist from the official vote leave campaign - was terrific. Ditto car makers.

Utter rubbish, the tariff was WTO not no tariff.

This is what he said

"Minford said Britain should not bother trying to strike a trade deal with the EU and should instead allow its imports and exports to be governed by the tariffs agreed at the World Trade Organisation. While those are low for most products, the EU's external tariff on cars stands at nearly 10 percent, raising questions about the potential impact of Brexit on an industry which employs around 800,000 people in Britain."

So, big new tariffs for our exports. Whilst he mentioned imports too, he also said:

"By leaving the EU and unilaterally scrapping tariffs on imports of food and manufactured goods, Britain would be able to reduce average prices by 8 percent, he said."

So, he clearly wants NO tariffs on food and products to realise these savings to consumers.

Hence my post was not utter rubbish, and did correctly reflect the utterly rubbish ideas of Prof Minford.

Link

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0XP15O...

[Phud]

///ajd said:

This is what he said

"Minford said Britain should not bother trying to strike a trade deal with the EU and should instead allow its imports and exports to be governed by the tariffs agreed at the World Trade Organisation. While those are low for most products, the EU's external tariff on cars stands at nearly 10 percent, raising questions about the potential impact of Brexit on an industry which employs around 800,000 people in Britain."

So, big new tariffs for our exports. Whilst he mentioned imports too, he also said:

"By leaving the EU and unilaterally scrapping tariffs on imports of food and manufactured goods, Britain would be able to reduce average prices by 8 percent, he said."

So, he clearly wants NO tariffs on food and products to realise these savings to consumers.

Hence my post was not utter rubbish, and did correctly reflect the utterly rubbish ideas of Prof Minford.

Even above you highlight WTO. Which is what he says and has always said for his figure, which might or might not be followed.

Again, since you are pro europe, is your vision status quo or change, since all of the EU direction is change, I ask you once again what do you think you are voting for by staying in?

[///ajd]

Phud said:

///ajd said:

This is what he said

"Minford said Britain should not bother trying to strike a trade deal with the EU and should instead allow its imports and exports to be governed by the tariffs agreed at the World Trade Organisation. While those are low for most products, the EU's external tariff on cars stands at nearly 10 percent, raising questions about the potential impact of Brexit on an industry which employs around 800,000 people in Britain."

So, big new tariffs for our exports. Whilst he mentioned imports too, he also said:

"By leaving the EU and unilaterally scrapping tariffs on imports of food and manufactured goods, Britain would be able to reduce average prices by 8 percent, he said."

So, he clearly wants NO tariffs on food and products to realise these savings to consumers.

Hence my post was not utter rubbish, and did correctly reflect the utterly rubbish ideas of Prof Minford.

Even above you highlight WTO. Which is what he says and has always said for his figure, which might or might not be followed.

Again, since you are pro europe, is your vision status quo or change, since all of the EU direction is change, I ask you once again what do you think you are voting for by staying in?

So my post wasn't utter rubbish then? No further apology needed.

I'm voting to avoid a total clusterfck of a non-existent leave plan, with absolute nutjobs like Minford happily tossing away our car industry to see if his half baked academic theory is right. It isn't.

Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 1st May 18:04

Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 1st May 18:05

[HarryW]

///ajd said:

Phud said:

///ajd said:

This is what he said

"Minford said Britain should not bother trying to strike a trade deal with the EU and should instead allow its imports and exports to be governed by the tariffs agreed at the World Trade Organisation. While those are low for most products, the EU's external tariff on cars stands at nearly 10 percent, raising questions about the potential impact of Brexit on an industry which employs around 800,000 people in Britain."

So, big new tariffs for our exports. Whilst he mentioned imports too, he also said:

"By leaving the EU and unilaterally scrapping tariffs on imports of food and manufactured goods, Britain would be able to reduce average prices by 8 percent, he said."

So, he clearly wants NO tariffs on food and products to realise these savings to consumers.

Hence my post was not utter rubbish, and did correctly reflect the utterly rubbish ideas of Prof Minford.

Even above you highlight WTO. Which is what he says and has always said for his figure, which might or might not be followed.

Again, since you are pro europe, is your vision status quo or change, since all of the EU direction is change, I ask you once again what do you think you are voting for by staying in?

So my post wasn't utter rubbish then? No further apology needed.

I'm voting to avoid a total clusterfck of a non-existent leave plan, with absolute nutjobs like Minford happily tossing away our car industry to see if his half baked academic theory is right. It isn't.

Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 1st May 18:04

Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 1st May 18:05

Genuine question what proportion of our car exports go to Europe? What is the balance of trade between us and the rest of the EU for cars?
Seems to me a very large percentage of cars on U.K. Roads are EU manufactured cars, if the EU attempts to apply a 10% tariffs to UK cars going to Europe, I presume we would do likewise?

[///ajd]

HarryW said:

///ajd said:

Phud said:

///ajd said:

This is what he said

"Minford said Britain should not bother trying to strike a trade deal with the EU and should instead allow its imports and exports to be governed by the tariffs agreed at the World Trade Organisation. While those are low for most products, the EU's external tariff on cars stands at nearly 10 percent, raising questions about the potential impact of Brexit on an industry which employs around 800,000 people in Britain."

So, big new tariffs for our exports. Whilst he mentioned imports too, he also said:

"By leaving the EU and unilaterally scrapping tariffs on imports of food and manufactured goods, Britain would be able to reduce average prices by 8 percent, he said."

So, he clearly wants NO tariffs on food and products to realise these savings to consumers.

Hence my post was not utter rubbish, and did correctly reflect the utterly rubbish ideas of Prof Minford.

Even above you highlight WTO. Which is what he says and has always said for his figure, which might or might not be followed.

Again, since you are pro europe, is your vision status quo or change, since all of the EU direction is change, I ask you once again what do you think you are voting for by staying in?

So my post wasn't utter rubbish then? No further apology needed.

I'm voting to avoid a total clusterfck of a non-existent leave plan, with absolute nutjobs like Minford happily tossing away our car industry to see if his half baked academic theory is right. It isn't.

Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 1st May 18:04

Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 1st May 18:05

Genuine question what proportion of our car exports go to Europe? What is the balance of trade between us and the rest of the EU for cars?
Seems to me a very large percentage of cars on U.K. Roads are EU manufactured cars, if the EU attempts to apply a 10% tariffs to UK cars going to Europe, I presume we would do likewise?

As an example about 20% of JLR cars goto Europe (ex UK) - its biggest market, though China used to be and might be again.

We could do all sorts, but Minford (voteleave official economist) is proposing to scrap tariffs on imports, and tolerate those we have to pay on our exports. He thinks the negative impact on food and cars is a price worth paying for brexit.

[s2art]

///ajd said:

As an example about 20% of JLR cars goto Europe (ex UK) - its biggest market, though China used to be and might be again.

We could do all sorts, but Minford (voteleave official economist) is proposing to scrap tariffs on imports, and tolerate those we have to pay on our exports. He thinks the negative impact on food and cars is a price worth paying for brexit.

Except it just will not happen. The EU is not going to put tariffs on items where they have the trade advantage.

[JawKnee]

HarryW said:

Genuine question what proportion of our car exports go to Europe? What is the balance of trade between us and the rest of the EU for cars?
Seems to me a very large percentage of cars on U.K. Roads are EU manufactured cars, if the EU attempts to apply a 10% tariffs to UK cars going to Europe, I presume we would do likewise?

Roughly a third of our motor exports go to Europe. We import three times as much from the EU as we export helping continue this country's huge trade deficit.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105...

We may slap tariffs on but as we are such a huge importer, there's only so far you can go down that route before you really start impacting UK inflation. Not a good strategy in the long run.

[mph1977]

s2art said:

///ajd said:

As an example about 20% of JLR cars goto Europe (ex UK) - its biggest market, though China used to be and might be again.

We could do all sorts, but Minford (voteleave official economist) is proposing to scrap tariffs on imports, and tolerate those we have to pay on our exports. He thinks the negative impact on food and cars is a price worth paying for brexit.

Except it just will not happen. The EU is not going to put tariffs on items where they have the trade advantage.

once again outies presuming that others will do things in Britain's favour on the basis that ' we're british dammit '