Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)

[crankedup5]

hidetheelephants said:

crankedup5 said:

hidetheelephants said:

crankedup5 said:

Well Abbott was mentioned along with corbyn, whoever they are.

No one here has mentioned them except you and you haven't deigned to link to whatever source you have, not that it matters as they are not in the Labour Party.

I’m sure it was reported in BBC national news broadcast. Never mind it will come more to the fore for the inattentive later.

They're still not Labour MPs and you've still not linked to a source. I'm not wading through hours of BBC news to find a 60 second item on what people who aren't Labour MPs think about SKS's defence policy.

Fair enough.
Like you I can’t be bothered to search out the link just to satisfy people who are not overly interested. It is a hot topic though, defence is high on the po,itical agenda and climbing as Russia, China, South Korea, along with terrorist activities on the rise. We will certainly be hearing more from Labour. and SKS detractors regard in the issue.
Personally I fully support an increase in U.K. defence spending.

[crankedup5]

hidetheelephants said:

anonymoususer said:

Away from all these polls and fellow posters slagging each other off I found this.
And it's more scary than most headlines. If they (whoever they are ) are able to clone a living politician then where will it end.
I've not read the article myself just seen the headline

Rayner’s former aide ‘contradicts her housing claims in police statement’ (cloned)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/rayner-s-for...

It's only a matter of time before we have hordes of Maggons and Supermacs facing off against legions of John Smiths and Hugh Gaitskells. It's a worry, especially if Reform UK ever obtain a DNA sample of Enoch Powell.

Good to see some moderation in your post, you used Enoch Powell whilst Adolf Hitler may have been a more popular choice by some of our more radical posters

[119]

anonymoususer said:

Away from all these polls and fellow posters slagging each other off I found this.
And it's more scary than most headlines. If they (whoever they are ) are able to clone a living politician then where will it end.
I've not read the article myself just seen the headline

Rayner’s former aide ‘contradicts her housing claims in police statement’ (cloned)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/rayner-s-for...

Ooops!


Still, Kier was quite supportive in the embedded video.

[hidetheelephants]

crankedup5 said:

Good to see some moderation in your post, you used Enoch Powell whilst Adolf Hitler may have been a more popular choice by some of our more radical posters

[768]

[redacted]

[turbobloke]

[redacted]

[S600BSB]

bhstewie said:

"But Abbott"

"But Rayner"

Meanwhile.

Is this the first time that the Cons have been below 20%, or is that the trend now?

[vaud]

hidetheelephants said:

No one here has mentioned them except you and you haven't deigned to link to whatever source you have, not that it matters as they are not in the Labour Party.

Ok so we can agree that

Diane A is an independent MP who list the Labour whip, but remains a member of the Labour Party.

[borcy]

crankedup5 said:

Fair enough.
Like you I can’t be bothered to search out the link just to satisfy people who are not overly interested. It is a hot topic though, defence is high on the po,itical agenda and climbing as Russia, China, South Korea, along with terrorist activities on the rise. We will certainly be hearing more from Labour. and SKS detractors regard in the issue.
Personally I fully support an increase in U.K. defence spending.

I don't think it'll be an issue at all tbh. It might be something politicians have to make statements about but I don't think the public care much about defence at all.

I don't think there's many votes to be fought over this issue.

[BigMon]

Mr Penguin said:

A more careful analysis of the polls would show a lot of risk for Labour, IMO.

• Most people don't pay attention to anything political related until the campaign actually starts, so I don't see the polls changing substantially in that time.
• Most Reform voters will go to the Conservatives when it actually comes to an election because they will trust Labour to deliver on their policies even less.
• The hard left can cause mischief, absolutely hate Starmer, and are stupid enough to do it.
• Labour haven't really set out a stall beyond "not the Tories" so will alienate some of their support who put their own opinions onto Starmer.
• Tory incompetence is priced in, Labour incompetence is not but that will start to come out when some of the shadow cabinet actually have to campaign.
• 2019 Tory voters are largely saying "Don't know" but most of those will go back to the Tories.
• The ME is a tinderbox. It wouldn't take much to make it flare up even more than it already is - imagine someone's brakes fail causing them to crash into a market stall, killing someone, which causes a riot. No intent is needed (although it is there on both sides) but it would escalate the Israel-Palestine war and that is a painful division for Labour.
• Starmer and Labour are not popular either. People say that the British system is not proportional but I think it does a good job of delivering the result that the electorate wants, which is to say that if the electorate doesn't really trust either option then the end result will be close.
• Labour have some terrible policies which will cost them votes, VAT on private schools will drive many parents back to the Conservatives or make them hesitant to vote if they are natural Labour voters. Even if the actual financial impact is quite small, people are worried about it.
• Conservatives have a boat load of cash to spend on the election and have quietly raised the limit.
• Labour lost a lot of good, experienced candidates in safe seats in both 2015 and 2019 and the lack of experience and fewer sitting MPs ready to campaign in other seats will hurt them.
• The last two elections have seen huge changes in the six months before the election - June 2019 polling showed Labour comfortably ahead of Conservatives and BXP slightly ahead / May 2017 showed Labour being 20 points behind the Conservatives less than a month before the election.
• I think there are a lot of Labour voters/members assuming they will get a big majority and once the polls start to narrow (as they always do) their confidence will shake and momentum will start to shift.

We'll see I guess. To me this current government has a strong whiff of the last Major one, although they have a strong advantage in that Starmer is no Blair.

As always, all to play for.

[hidetheelephants]

vaud said:

hidetheelephants said:

No one here has mentioned them except you and you haven't deigned to link to whatever source you have, not that it matters as they are not in the Labour Party.

Ok so we can agree that

Diane A is an independent MP who list the Labour whip, but remains a member of the Labour Party.

I was replying to a post mentioning Corbyn and Abbot, which is implicitly about MPs. I should have been clearer.

[turbobloke]

Possibly a pearoast...M&S boss has warned Starmer over labour (workers' rights not the party) reforms.

This suggests Starmer has a policy beyond the multi-zillion greenblob commitment that got u-turned.

[crankedup5]

hidetheelephants said:

crankedup5 said:

Good to see some moderation in your post, you used Enoch Powell whilst Adolf Hitler may have been a more popular choice by some of our more radical posters

Even the jester doesn’t get one out of jail in here.

[anonymoususer]

I mentioned cloning.
It may already have begun. I hear that Lord Heseltine (Maggie Thatcher / John Major era shagging minister) has asked questions in the Lords about the ex Liverpool Mayor Joe Anderson.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/ex-deputy-pm...

[vaud]

anonymoususer said:

I mentioned cloning.
It may already have begun. I hear that Lord Heseltine (Maggie Thatcher / John Major era shagging minister) has asked questions in the Lords about the ex Liverpool Mayor Joe Anderson.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/ex-deputy-pm...

He has a point.

[hidetheelephants]

anonymoususer said:

I mentioned cloning.
It may already have begun. I hear that Lord Heseltine (Maggie Thatcher / John Major era shagging minister) has asked questions in the Lords about the ex Liverpool Mayor Joe Anderson.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/ex-deputy-pm...

At this stage I wouldn't be surprised if Derek Hatton makes yet another comeback, like the zombie corpse of the Militant tendency, just in time to give SKS something else to be asked inane questions about, whereupon he'll deploy his superpowers to resist the temptation to belm at the questioner and shrug his shoulders theatrically and instead look puzzled and ask why they're not asking inane questions about something dull and worthy like his defence policy, which is much more important to british voters.

[S600BSB]

anonymoususer said:

I mentioned cloning.
It may already have begun. I hear that Lord Heseltine (Maggie Thatcher / John Major era shagging minister) has asked questions in the Lords about the ex Liverpool Mayor Joe Anderson.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/ex-deputy-pm...

Was Lord Heseltine a “shagging minister”? He certainly did his bit to bring down Thatcher, for which he will always be a national hero, but shagging??

[greygoose]

S600BSB said:

anonymoususer said:

I mentioned cloning.
It may already have begun. I hear that Lord Heseltine (Maggie Thatcher / John Major era shagging minister) has asked questions in the Lords about the ex Liverpool Mayor Joe Anderson.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/ex-deputy-pm...

Was Lord Heseltine a “shagging minister”? He certainly did his bit to bring down Thatcher, for which he will always be a national hero, but shagging??

Perhaps swinging the mace has different connotations for some?

[JagLover]

Mr Penguin said:

A more careful analysis of the polls would show a lot of risk for Labour, IMO.

• Most people don't pay attention to anything political related until the campaign actually starts, so I don't see the polls changing substantially in that time.
• Most Reform voters will go to the Conservatives when it actually comes to an election because they will trust Labour to deliver on their policies even less.
• The hard left can cause mischief, absolutely hate Starmer, and are stupid enough to do it.
• Labour haven't really set out a stall beyond "not the Tories" so will alienate some of their support who put their own opinions onto Starmer.
• Tory incompetence is priced in, Labour incompetence is not but that will start to come out when some of the shadow cabinet actually have to campaign.
• 2019 Tory voters are largely saying "Don't know" but most of those will go back to the Tories.
• The ME is a tinderbox. It wouldn't take much to make it flare up even more than it already is - imagine someone's brakes fail causing them to crash into a market stall, killing someone, which causes a riot. No intent is needed (although it is there on both sides) but it would escalate the Israel-Palestine war and that is a painful division for Labour.
• Starmer and Labour are not popular either. People say that the British system is not proportional but I think it does a good job of delivering the result that the electorate wants, which is to say that if the electorate doesn't really trust either option then the end result will be close.
• Labour have some terrible policies which will cost them votes, VAT on private schools will drive many parents back to the Conservatives or make them hesitant to vote if they are natural Labour voters. Even if the actual financial impact is quite small, people are worried about it.
• Conservatives have a boat load of cash to spend on the election and have quietly raised the limit.
• Labour lost a lot of good, experienced candidates in safe seats in both 2015 and 2019 and the lack of experience and fewer sitting MPs ready to campaign in other seats will hurt them.
• The last two elections have seen huge changes in the six months before the election - June 2019 polling showed Labour comfortably ahead of Conservatives and BXP slightly ahead / May 2017 showed Labour being 20 points behind the Conservatives less than a month before the election.
• I think there are a lot of Labour voters/members assuming they will get a big majority and once the polls start to narrow (as they always do) their confidence will shake and momentum will start to shift.

I agree that current polls don't really show clearly what is going on and talks of "swings" to Labour misleading as only a relatively small percentage of the 2019 Tory vote plan to vote Labour.

However this to my mind is more relevant to the world after the inevitable Labour election victory, in that there are voters who can be mobilised, even if they are not there now.

I think you underestimate the anger and sense of betrayal and the desire to give the Tories a kicking above all else. They will be fortunate to reach 25% of the vote IMO and Labour will have a landslide greater than 97 without evoking much enthusiasm.

[Mr Penguin]

JagLover said:

I agree that current polls don't really show clearly what is going on and talks of "swings" to Labour misleading as only a relatively small percentage of the 2019 Tory vote plan to vote Labour.

However this to my mind is more relevant to the world after the inevitable Labour election victory, in that there are voters who can be mobilised, even if they are not there now.

I think you underestimate the anger and sense of betrayal and the desire to give the Tories a kicking above all else. They will be fortunate to reach 25% of the vote IMO and Labour will have a landslide greater than 97 without evoking much enthusiasm.

That was there in 97 too, but Labour were actually popular then and the 97 swing (which was huge) wouldn't even get a majority of 1.