CV19 - Cure Worse Than The Disease? (Vol 19)
Discussion
Hants PHer said:
Elysium said:
We have disagreed from time to time, but that is what discussion is all about. I am absolutely fine with it and think you have made an important and helpful contribution to this thread.
R3g’s comments about your posts are totally misplaced. But this is someone that has decided all evidence is fake. They have rejected reason, so they can’t be reasoned with, and the conclusions they reach are not reasonable.
At risk of being accused of back slapping, I will add that posts from Elysium and isaldiri have, since early 2020, been interesting, informative and helpful. Well played gentlemen.R3g’s comments about your posts are totally misplaced. But this is someone that has decided all evidence is fake. They have rejected reason, so they can’t be reasoned with, and the conclusions they reach are not reasonable.
As for r3g and jameswillis, I give up. When one references official facts from the likes of the ONS and get a response stating, in effect, that the ONS is lying, one moves beyond the realms of reasonable discussion. To hold the opinion that there was no Covid virus, and that the vaccines did nothing and/or are causing large numbers of deaths in healthy recipients is to express an opinion that is, in my opinion, unhinged.
, the number is now just 2 people. 
Win!This is from the play book that they used for vaccination status after the magic juice jabs. It quickly became apparent that they had a huge problem on their hands with tons of people dying from the jabs in the days that immediately followed and desperately needed some way of covering it up, so what do you do? Move the goal posts again and have you believe that despite having just come back from being jabbed you are not actually jabbed until 2 weeks later, so if you die within that period then it counts as an unjabbed covid death and not from the vaccine
. And you people just accepted this blatant fraud and deceit as being completely fine. And both of these are on top of the massive fraud of recording every death as a covid death in 2020/1. Fall of a ladder changing a light bulb and die = died from covid. Died in a motorbike accident = died from covid. Parachute failed to open = died from covid. Natural old age death = died from covid. Definitely seems legit ! /s
The official numbers are total total bulls
t and anyone attempting to use them as evidence to support their claims should quite rightly be treated with the contempt they deserve for continuing to push the blatant fraud and lies that were exposed as being BS over 3 years ago.jameswills said:
Hants PHer said:
As others have said, your posts are civilised and seem to be meant sincerely. But I'm curious: if there was no Covid virus in, say, March/April 2020, what caused the spike in infections? A paramedic (user name pneumothorax) posted on here with real life reports of very strange symptoms, notably hypoxia, that he hadn't seen before. What he witnessed, first hand, was something new and different. If not Covid, then what?
Then there's the vaccines. Studies from the likes of the ONS, NHS England and The Lancet all showed greatly reduced rates of intensive care admissions and deaths in those who had the vaccines. Those studies are freely available with a spot of cursory Googling. When you say the vaccine(s) did not do "anything positive" that can be "substantiated", are you saying that all the studies are wrong?
With all due respect, your comment that I've quoted is pretty staggering and hard to take seriously.
Hysteria, latent “flu” season (there was nothing in 2019, usually get 20k deaths annually), and very very poor health care decisions in ventilation, stress in elderly patients, end of life drugs put everything into one basket. Health care “professionals” are still human and susceptible to scare mongering and thinking they are seeing something that doesn’t exist. Then there's the vaccines. Studies from the likes of the ONS, NHS England and The Lancet all showed greatly reduced rates of intensive care admissions and deaths in those who had the vaccines. Those studies are freely available with a spot of cursory Googling. When you say the vaccine(s) did not do "anything positive" that can be "substantiated", are you saying that all the studies are wrong?
With all due respect, your comment that I've quoted is pretty staggering and hard to take seriously.
That study was totally debunked at the time, as discussed at the time. “Vaccinated” was 2 weeks after the 2nd dose, so someone admitted to ICU immediately after they received a jab would be classed as “unvaccinated”. The stats on vaccinated vs unvaccinated are unreliable at best because of this. Just look at the VAERS system, it’s enough to indicate there’s an issue.
You are a Covid denier.
You will never admit that you are wrong.
We normally get around 20K flu deaths in the UK. In 2020 there were 73K deaths from Covid. If you don't believe that they were from Covid, then please tell us what these deaths were caused by.
I have been told by many anti vaxxers, that there is no such thing as "long Covid", because Covid never existed.
I have also been told that all deaths and injuries were caused not by Covid (because it didn't exist) but by the vaccinations, despite the fact that the vaccinations did not exist in 2020.
My neighbour who was very fit and in his mid forties has long Covid, which happened before he was vaccinated for the first time.
I (and thousands of others) have had a reaction to the first vaccine, which I initially thought was long Covid, but which I now know came from the Astra Zeneca batch (PV46664) responsible for the largest number of adverse reactions - 8,000 adr's and at least 20 deaths.
I have two relations who are no longer with us, because they died from Covid.
vixen1700 said:
Thanks for that link. As I have found out to my cost, they are not rare side effects. The NHS are in denial about this.https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/641...
r3g said:
Hants PHer said:
Elysium said:
We have disagreed from time to time, but that is what discussion is all about. I am absolutely fine with it and think you have made an important and helpful contribution to this thread.
R3g’s comments about your posts are totally misplaced. But this is someone that has decided all evidence is fake. They have rejected reason, so they can’t be reasoned with, and the conclusions they reach are not reasonable.
At risk of being accused of back slapping, I will add that posts from Elysium and isaldiri have, since early 2020, been interesting, informative and helpful. Well played gentlemen.R3g’s comments about your posts are totally misplaced. But this is someone that has decided all evidence is fake. They have rejected reason, so they can’t be reasoned with, and the conclusions they reach are not reasonable.
As for r3g and jameswillis, I give up. When one references official facts from the likes of the ONS and get a response stating, in effect, that the ONS is lying, one moves beyond the realms of reasonable discussion. To hold the opinion that there was no Covid virus, and that the vaccines did nothing and/or are causing large numbers of deaths in healthy recipients is to express an opinion that is, in my opinion, unhinged.
Why do you repeat utter BS such as this?
I have lost a sister and a father since 2022 and Covid wasn't mentioned on their death certificates, despite the fact that they had both contracted it about a month before they died. One died from Pulmonary Thrombosis/Morbid Obesity and the other General Frailty/Heart Failure/Dementia.
andyA700 said:
r3g said:
Hants PHer said:
Elysium said:
We have disagreed from time to time, but that is what discussion is all about. I am absolutely fine with it and think you have made an important and helpful contribution to this thread.
R3g’s comments about your posts are totally misplaced. But this is someone that has decided all evidence is fake. They have rejected reason, so they can’t be reasoned with, and the conclusions they reach are not reasonable.
At risk of being accused of back slapping, I will add that posts from Elysium and isaldiri have, since early 2020, been interesting, informative and helpful. Well played gentlemen.R3g’s comments about your posts are totally misplaced. But this is someone that has decided all evidence is fake. They have rejected reason, so they can’t be reasoned with, and the conclusions they reach are not reasonable.
As for r3g and jameswillis, I give up. When one references official facts from the likes of the ONS and get a response stating, in effect, that the ONS is lying, one moves beyond the realms of reasonable discussion. To hold the opinion that there was no Covid virus, and that the vaccines did nothing and/or are causing large numbers of deaths in healthy recipients is to express an opinion that is, in my opinion, unhinged.
And both of these are on top of the massive fraud of recording every death as a covid death in 2020/1. Fall of a ladder changing a light bulb and die = died from covid. Died in a motorbike accident = died from covid. Parachute failed to open = died from covid. Natural old age death = died from covid. Definitely seems legit ! /s
Why do you repeat utter BS such as this?
I have lost a sister and a father since 2022 and Covid wasn't mentioned on their death certificates, despite the fact that they had both contracted it about a month before they died. One died from Pulmonary Thrombosis/Morbid Obesity and the other General Frailty/Heart Failure/Dementia.
rodericb said:
Well, when, in 2021 or whenever, you've got a shooting victim in New Zealand and a teenage brain cancer victim in Australia being officially chalked up as deaths from Covid-19 you have to wonder.....
It was happening all over the world, this is no secret and yet again we see people completely in denial.It even saw air time on some of the US mainstream new channels for a while as doctors had gone on record to report that they had been approached by government health officials and told their hospital would receive a payment of $13000 for each death certificate as having died from covid and if it was a ventilator death then that increased to $39000 per person. Of course, it's now on all the "fact-checker" sites so all those doctors from different hospitals across the USA were all clearly lying
.I just watched this fantastic piece from Unherd about the “disinformation movement”
https://youtu.be/4dmzmJMb0fw?si=k7UZmRTkhPmz7qqZ
Sort of fits with discussion here from posters who have reached the point where they don’t believe anything.
https://youtu.be/4dmzmJMb0fw?si=k7UZmRTkhPmz7qqZ
Sort of fits with discussion here from posters who have reached the point where they don’t believe anything.
Elysium said:
I just watched this fantastic piece from Unherd about the “disinformation movement”
https://youtu.be/4dmzmJMb0fw?si=k7UZmRTkhPmz7qqZ
Sort of fits with discussion here from posters who have reached the point where they don’t believe anything other than the government's fabricated numbers and official state approved narrative.
EFA.https://youtu.be/4dmzmJMb0fw?si=k7UZmRTkhPmz7qqZ
Sort of fits with discussion here from posters who have reached the point where they don’t believe anything other than the government's fabricated numbers and official state approved narrative.
Elysium said:
This is a belief system. You have decided to reject evidence that contradicts your belief. The only facts you will accept are the ones that fit your preconceived ideas.
This is a bit ironic as you keep rearranging my words to fit your own preconceived idea of what I think and do. I will spell it out again so there is no confusion, I used to have preconceived beliefs in many parts of our system, but the last few years have made me question these beliefs and I began to really look into what we have been told and made to believe was “fact” or “truth” as blatantly what I was seeing and hearing in the media bared zero resemblance to what I was seeing with my own eyes.
If everyone turned off any media source in 2020 I’m absolutely convinced we’d have known nothing about any “virus”. That’s my honest and simple conclusion to it all. Is that now a belief? Yes. Is it based on previously held ideas that I’ve used to concoct a narrative that fits, no. It’s the complete opposite. I’ve had to pretty much unwind anything I used to believe in, and I didn’t do that lightly.
jameswills said:
Elysium said:
This is a belief system. You have decided to reject evidence that contradicts your belief. The only facts you will accept are the ones that fit your preconceived ideas.
This is a bit ironic as you keep rearranging my words to fit your own preconceived idea of what I think and do. I will spell it out again so there is no confusion, I used to have preconceived beliefs in many parts of our system, but the last few years have made me question these beliefs and I began to really look into what we have been told and made to believe was “fact” or “truth” as blatantly what I was seeing and hearing in the media bared zero resemblance to what I was seeing with my own eyes.
If everyone turned off any media source in 2020 I’m absolutely convinced we’d have known nothing about any “virus”. That’s my honest and simple conclusion to it all. Is that now a belief? Yes. Is it based on previously held ideas that I’ve used to concoct a narrative that fits, no. It’s the complete opposite. I’ve had to pretty much unwind anything I used to believe in, and I didn’t do that lightly.
The truth is that you have decided this, because it is what you have chosen to believe. Blind faith.
jameswills said:
Elysium said:
This is a belief system. You have decided to reject evidence that contradicts your belief. The only facts you will accept are the ones that fit your preconceived ideas.
This is a bit ironic as you keep rearranging my words to fit your own preconceived idea of what I think and do. Elysium said:
jameswills said:
Elysium said:
This is a belief system. You have decided to reject evidence that contradicts your belief. The only facts you will accept are the ones that fit your preconceived ideas.
This is a bit ironic as you keep rearranging my words to fit your own preconceived idea of what I think and do. I will spell it out again so there is no confusion, I used to have preconceived beliefs in many parts of our system, but the last few years have made me question these beliefs and I began to really look into what we have been told and made to believe was “fact” or “truth” as blatantly what I was seeing and hearing in the media bared zero resemblance to what I was seeing with my own eyes.
If everyone turned off any media source in 2020 I’m absolutely convinced we’d have known nothing about any “virus”. That’s my honest and simple conclusion to it all. Is that now a belief? Yes. Is it based on previously held ideas that I’ve used to concoct a narrative that fits, no. It’s the complete opposite. I’ve had to pretty much unwind anything I used to believe in, and I didn’t do that lightly.
The truth is that you have decided this, because it is what you have chosen to believe. Blind faith.
Elysium said:
I just watched this fantastic piece from Unherd about the “disinformation movement”
https://youtu.be/4dmzmJMb0fw?si=k7UZmRTkhPmz7qqZ
Sort of fits with discussion here from posters who have reached the point where they don’t believe anything.
I shall watch it later.https://youtu.be/4dmzmJMb0fw?si=k7UZmRTkhPmz7qqZ
Sort of fits with discussion here from posters who have reached the point where they don’t believe anything.
As I've said before, it's very much like engaging with Jehovahs Witnesses. It doesn't matter what you reply with, unless it's in the watchtower or their version of the bible they will refute all evidence placed in front of them.
As such, best to just politely nod with a fixed smile on your face whilst (metaphorically as this is a forum) slowly closing the door.
BigMon said:
As I've said before, it's very much like engaging with Jehovahs Witnesses. It doesn't matter what you reply with, unless it's in the watchtower or their version of the bible they will refute all evidence placed in front of them.
As such, best to just politely nod with a fixed smile on your face whilst (metaphorically as this is a forum) slowly closing the door.
Spot on. It's what I'm doing with jameswillis and r3g (close the metaphorical door, that is): when presented with data that they don't like, because it shows the absurdity of their positions, they just say "Nah, that ONS data is manipulated to show what they want you to see." Or some other denialist foolishness.As such, best to just politely nod with a fixed smile on your face whilst (metaphorically as this is a forum) slowly closing the door.
The SARS-CoV-2 virus exists, fact. The covid vaccines caused some harms, but there's no statistical evidence to prove large scale deaths among the vaccinated, fact. There's no point in attempting a discussion with a person who denies facts.
andyA700 said:
What you have just posted is absolute BS. This is urban mythology territory. "a bloke down the pub told me that his 102 year old gran fell over and hit her head, and they put Covid death on the certificate".
Why do you repeat utter BS such as this?
I have lost a sister and a father since 2022 and Covid wasn't mentioned on their death certificates, despite the fact that they had both contracted it about a month before they died. One died from Pulmonary Thrombosis/Morbid Obesity and the other General Frailty/Heart Failure/Dementia.
I thought the ONS were, in 2020 at least, recording every death of every individual who had ever tested positive as a Covid death and it was pressure from Heneghan etc that got the methodology changed to exclude the “tested positive, hit by a bus 6 months later” type deaths?Why do you repeat utter BS such as this?
I have lost a sister and a father since 2022 and Covid wasn't mentioned on their death certificates, despite the fact that they had both contracted it about a month before they died. One died from Pulmonary Thrombosis/Morbid Obesity and the other General Frailty/Heart Failure/Dementia.
alangla said:
I thought the ONS were, in 2020 at least, recording every death of every individual who had ever tested positive as a Covid death and it was pressure from Heneghan etc that got the methodology changed to exclude the “tested positive, hit by a bus 6 months later” type deaths?
One of a number of questionable decisions, including stopping publishing data by vaccination status, and most recently the redefinition of excess deaths.Still, you know, trust the government and do what you're told.
alangla said:
andyA700 said:
What you have just posted is absolute BS. This is urban mythology territory. "a bloke down the pub told me that his 102 year old gran fell over and hit her head, and they put Covid death on the certificate".
Why do you repeat utter BS such as this?
I have lost a sister and a father since 2022 and Covid wasn't mentioned on their death certificates, despite the fact that they had both contracted it about a month before they died. One died from Pulmonary Thrombosis/Morbid Obesity and the other General Frailty/Heart Failure/Dementia.
I thought the ONS were, in 2020 at least, recording every death of every individual who had ever tested positive as a Covid death and it was pressure from Heneghan etc that got the methodology changed to exclude the “tested positive, hit by a bus 6 months later” type deaths?Why do you repeat utter BS such as this?
I have lost a sister and a father since 2022 and Covid wasn't mentioned on their death certificates, despite the fact that they had both contracted it about a month before they died. One died from Pulmonary Thrombosis/Morbid Obesity and the other General Frailty/Heart Failure/Dementia.
Hants PHer said:
BigMon said:
As I've said before, it's very much like engaging with Jehovahs Witnesses. It doesn't matter what you reply with, unless it's in the watchtower or their version of the bible they will refute all evidence placed in front of them.
As such, best to just politely nod with a fixed smile on your face whilst (metaphorically as this is a forum) slowly closing the door.
Spot on. It's what I'm doing with jameswillis and r3g (close the metaphorical door, that is): when presented with data that they don't like, because it shows the absurdity of their positions, they just say "Nah, that ONS data is manipulated to show what they want you to see." Or some other denialist foolishness.As such, best to just politely nod with a fixed smile on your face whilst (metaphorically as this is a forum) slowly closing the door.
The SARS-CoV-2 virus exists, fact. The covid vaccines caused some harms, but there's no statistical evidence to prove large scale deaths among the vaccinated, fact. There's no point in attempting a discussion with a person who denies facts.
That really only came about after Omicron and South Africa where although admission numbers were going up in SA, it was highlighted that in fact all patients were being tested at the front door and many positive tests was incidental findings rather than the hospitals being swamped with unwell Covid patients.
It took a long time for the government to acknowledge that was a legitimate thing and that the daily reported headline figures potentially could be 'misleading' as to the severity of the situation.
alangla said:
I thought the ONS were, in 2020 at least, recording every death of every individual who had ever tested positive as a Covid death and it was pressure from Heneghan etc that got the methodology changed to exclude the “tested positive, hit by a bus 6 months later” type deaths?
Only up till around July/August when that was changed to the 28 day thing I believe. It definitely wasn't something applied all through 2020. and if it was indeed people being wrongly classified as covid deaths wholesale (no doubt it did happen in some cases) up till then, it doesn't then explain why after the big spring wave subsided there would have been so few covid deaths in late May/June when deaths were below average for a short period.g3org3y said:
I think another issue with distrust of the stats is that the government didn't exactly shower themselves with glory when it came to the reporting of covid hospital admissions, in particular 'admissions because' vs 'admissions with' Covid.
While that certainly was true, I don't think it was necessarily quite as different as sometimes suggested. it wouldn't really meaningfully have changed things overall across the pandemic period I think. Neither the issue of deaths 'with' or 'of' and again for hospitalisations or even the 28 day test bit really would have substantially changed anything overall as infection levels were the big determinant of excess deaths up till perhaps ealy/mid 2021 after spring 2020. It did far more damage to the perception of how things were being presented obviously which was wholly self inflicted but not in terms of changing 'true' hospitalisation/death numbers very much.Edited by isaldiri on Monday 29th April 13:34
RustyMX5 said:
alangla said:
andyA700 said:
What you have just posted is absolute BS. This is urban mythology territory. "a bloke down the pub told me that his 102 year old gran fell over and hit her head, and they put Covid death on the certificate".
Why do you repeat utter BS such as this?
I have lost a sister and a father since 2022 and Covid wasn't mentioned on their death certificates, despite the fact that they had both contracted it about a month before they died. One died from Pulmonary Thrombosis/Morbid Obesity and the other General Frailty/Heart Failure/Dementia.
I thought the ONS were, in 2020 at least, recording every death of every individual who had ever tested positive as a Covid death and it was pressure from Heneghan etc that got the methodology changed to exclude the “tested positive, hit by a bus 6 months later” type deaths?Why do you repeat utter BS such as this?
I have lost a sister and a father since 2022 and Covid wasn't mentioned on their death certificates, despite the fact that they had both contracted it about a month before they died. One died from Pulmonary Thrombosis/Morbid Obesity and the other General Frailty/Heart Failure/Dementia.
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