Chemotherapy - cancer? You're fit.

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Couple of prog's on telly last night, under cover Doctor gets trained ready to conduct the Governments ESA benefits tests on people currently in receipt of that benefit.
A twenty minute largely irrelevant series of practical tests intended to weed out 'lead swingers'. Apparently a one armed person is fit to hold down a checkout assistants job.
A person awaiting a major heart operation is declared fit for work. He died of a heart attack within two weeks of being assessed as fit for work.
For every five people who are declared fit for work and they appeal, two appeals are successful.
Those seriously ill and deemed unfit for work are hounded every two or three weeks to come in for another assessment.
A guy with a serious chest complaint deemed fit, within two weeks he was in hospital coughing up blood.
The list is endless, thousands of people are being deemed fit for work when clearly they are not. A chemotherapy cancer suffering patient is deemed fit for work, unless the chemo is administered intravenously.
The 'examination' is far to prescriptive and not fit for purpose being the judgement of the two broadcasters. Of course the Government denies that anything is wrong with the system and wants to offer people the opportunity to find fulfilling work.
Knowing that most posters in here are hard nosed Tories I expect any responses to be of the negative type and the fact 'we are broke'. But whatever ones politics, this examination process needs to be reviewed again urgently. Far to prescriptive with even some assessors suggesting 'its not right'.

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stackmonkey said:

johnfm said:

Yes, seriously.

Welfare is a safety net, not a hammock.

If you are fit to do certain jobs, why shouldn't you at least have to try?

The point, which you have obviously missed unless you are trolling, is that many people who are incapable of doing any jobs, are being told that they are fit due to an inadequate testing system and are unfairly losing that safety net as a consequence.

And that is the point in a nut shell. A % of lead swingers of course, but the genuinely unfit for work are, in far too many instances, being passed fit for work. The examination process is still deeply flawed and urgently requires reviewing. The Government is refusing to carry out a further review. Makes you proud to be British, not.

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Oakey said:

How can anyone say he wouldn't have died two weeks later had he been sat at home on his arse instead?

The point is the man was unfit for work, with the prospect of major heart surgery and the loss of income from his benefit was adding to stress levels. Not helpful.

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Oakey said:

I think davepoth hit the nail on the head earlier. If you're looking to cheat the system you will do your homework and know the correct responses to ensure the result you want, if you're naive and honest you'll play things down and risk not being assessed correctly.

Those in genuine need get shafted and those on the fiddle win.

From the two prog's I have watched it is impossible to cheat the system. The examination is such that it is almost impossible to gain the 15 points required on any of the set format tests. And that is the problem.
Can you lift an empty cardboard box and walk a few yards with it? Most people can, even a one armed person. How many jobs about where that is a requirement of the job? It proves no fitness whatsoever.

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johnfm said:

league67 said:

Pesty said:

johnfm said:

Boo hoo.

Why don't you dip into your savings and pay these people to sit at home if it so upsetting.

seriously?

Don't think so. Just a desperado wanna-be hard man over the interweb. johnfm, that comment was beyond contempt. If you actually do
think that and it's not just mindless bravado, you should be shot. Preferably, imho, before you contaminate genetic pool.

Heh. I assume you were Captain of your school debating team.

The robust testing and appeals procedure should ( though may not necessarily) weed out people who have chosen sickness benefit as a lifestyle choice.

The question is 'what exactly is too sick to work'?

Quite clearly, some jobs (if they are available) could be done by people with a variety of long term illnesses.

Some long term illnesses may not make work possible. These people are the ones who need welfare support. As with the NHS and most other forms of welfare, the scope creep has become so wide that there is too little help available to genuine claimants.

As for karma, that is what health insurance is for.

So why did you not reply in such tones in my OP, its a serious subject that I would have thought captured peoples attention for serious replies. In most cases that is indeed the case.

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Burrow01 said:

crankedup said:

Couple of prog's on telly last night, under cover Doctor gets trained ready to conduct the Governments ESA benefits tests on people currently in receipt of that benefit.

A chemotherapy cancer suffering patient is deemed fit for work, unless the chemo is administered intravenously.

I carried on working whilst having IV Chemo, would not have wanted to work on a building site but if you have an office / admin job its definitely possible. I did teleconferences actually from the Chemo ward, as its pretty boring so you might as well get something done, especially if you charge by the day....

Not saying this is the same for all forms of chemo and for everyone, but its not automatically stopping your from working

If a patient is well enough to work such as your situation thats a good thing. But would you have wanted to journey to work on public transport and face the eight hour day five days a week. Also the examination makes no allowances, if your receiving oral chemo you are fit for work. Would that patient be able to concentrate 100% on the work, its a minefield in reality both for the employee and employer.

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rich1231 said:

crankedup said:

From the two prog's I have watched it is impossible to cheat the system. The examination is such that it is almost impossible to gain the 15 points required on any of the set format tests. And that is the problem.
Can you lift an empty cardboard box and walk a few yards with it? Most people can, even a one armed person. How many jobs about where that is a requirement of the job? It proves no fitness whatsoever.

You are deluded sying it isnt possible to cheat the system.

Maybe? but thats hardly the point, the debate regarding the current system is far more important, anyhow, thanks for your deep and meaningful input.

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BruceV8 said:

One of my friends lost both legs and suffered damage to his hands. Another lost one and a half legs and an arm. Both use motorised wheelchairs. Both work.

I would be interested to read more regarding these individuals. How long ago the accidents / or Military casualties occurred. Support received and support into work place given/ offered. Also what is the work these people carry out.
It's heartening to hear of these situations and I am interested in reading more.

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Oakey said:

crankedup said:

From the two prog's I have watched it is impossible to cheat the system. The examination is such that it is almost impossible to gain the 15 points required on any of the set format tests. And that is the problem.
Can you lift an empty cardboard box and walk a few yards with it? Most people can, even a one armed person. How many jobs about where that is a requirement of the job? It proves no fitness whatsoever.

Really? Impossible?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4239460/...

TheSun said:

A CANCER victim swindled £110,000 in benefits to jet off on luxury holidays after she was cured by the NHS.

Grasping Debra Allan, 49, who lied that she could barely walk, was jailed for 18 months yesterday.

In five years the ex hairdresser squandered cash she fiddled on holidays to Dubai, Laos and Thailand. In one year alone she spent FIVE MONTHS in Italy.

Mum-of-three Allan — who got the all-clear after a hysterectomy for cervical cancer in 2003 — claimed she took 15 minutes to walk 30 yards.

She said she needed a mobility scooter, plus help getting out of bed, using the toilet and someone to cook and give her medication.

But holiday snaps showed her on a treadmill and on waterslides in Dubai.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4238667/Disability-benefit-cheat-caught-on-rollercoaster.html

TheSun said:

A BENEFIT cheat who claimed he could barely walk has been jailed — after he was caught riding a rollercoaster at Alton Towers.

Joseph Smith, 41, of Runcorn, Cheshire, said he could only walk eight metres without suffering severe discomfort.

But fraud investigators caught him staying on his feet for long periods at the Staffordshire theme park, as well as enjoying himself on the rides.

He was also filmed lifting bundles of traffic cones while working as a car park marshall under a fake name.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4120277/Disability-benefit-cheat-Albert-Davies-filmed-playing-golf.html

TheSun said:

A GOLF-loving benefits cheat has narrowly avoided jail after being filmed on the green while claiming he could hardly move.

Albert Davies, 68, claimed nearly £30,000 in five years after saying his rheumatoid arthritis meant he could not get in and out of the shower.

Davies, who got the highest level of Disability Living Allowance, also told officials that he needed his wife’s help to cut his food.

He was rumbled when investigators filmed him playing golf in Sutton Coldfield, West Mids, several times.

Nobody supports benefit cheats, but these examples are not related to the examinations we are debating in the thread. No mention of the people being subjected to the examinations.

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CaptainSlow said:

uk_vette said:

.
Sorry a little OT.
Does any one know why we still give money away, when we quite clearly need the money in UK ?

Vette

I assume as a humanitarian gesture to support the real starving in the world, or as a PR exercise to try to boost UK trade exports. Either is money better spent than spending cash on the workshy in this country. I'd much rather £100 of tax payers money is spent ensuring a dozen children sat on a desert dust bowl crawling with flies get a bowl of rice and some basic medicine than paying for some slob's Sky subscription.

To the OP, unfortunately the culture we have somehow ended up with in this country has meant the real needy in this country will lose out. The examples you gave obviously require our support as many of us may need if we lose our health. The abusers of the system spoil is for all of us and they are the real people that should be targetted.

Sorry for the rant.

OP reply : I agree with what your saying , however the point I am making is that the examinations are badly flawed in as much as not differentiating the genuinely unfit for work and those that could work. Also the situation of those deemed unfit being hounded every few weeks to come back for reassessments. That amounts to harassment IMO.

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Burrow01 said:

crankedup said:

Burrow01 said:

crankedup said:

Couple of prog's on telly last night, under cover Doctor gets trained ready to conduct the Governments ESA benefits tests on people currently in receipt of that benefit.

A chemotherapy cancer suffering patient is deemed fit for work, unless the chemo is administered intravenously.

I carried on working whilst having IV Chemo, would not have wanted to work on a building site but if you have an office / admin job its definitely possible. I did teleconferences actually from the Chemo ward, as its pretty boring so you might as well get something done, especially if you charge by the day....

Not saying this is the same for all forms of chemo and for everyone, but its not automatically stopping your from working

If a patient is well enough to work such as your situation thats a good thing. But would you have wanted to journey to work on public transport and face the eight hour day five days a week. Also the examination makes no allowances, if your receiving oral chemo you are fit for work. Would that patient be able to concentrate 100% on the work, its a minefield in reality both for the employee and employer.

Lots of people who were having Chemo had to travel there by Bus...

Not saying everyone having Chemo is fit to work, it can be seriously debilitating and is cumulative, you go downhill steadily. I was just pointing out that having IV Chemo does not necessarily mean you cannot do your job.

I think the problem with the tests is that they are with people who don't already have jobs, so declaring that you can do some jobs does not guarentee that there will be a job available that suits your capabilities.

The problem is that Disability Allowance for some people means that they never even look for another job again. Having only one arm will obviously make it more difficult for someone to pursuade an employer to take them on, but the question is should the public purse be subsidising the person for life because of that.

Fair enough, its an debate that clearly will not offer a conclusive and correct answer, but the Government has instructed that oral chemo patients are fit for work.
For the disabled through loss of limb(s) we as a compassionate Country should provide living allowances, or rather maintain them IMO. Its the shirkers we need to sift out. If persons want to work disregarding physical situation that should be encouraged but not demanded.

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davepoth said:

crankedup said:

If a patient is well enough to work such as your situation thats a good thing. But would you have wanted to journey to work on public transport and face the eight hour day five days a week. Also the examination makes no allowances, if your receiving oral chemo you are fit for work. Would that patient be able to concentrate 100% on the work, its a minefield in reality both for the employee and employer.

No, the examination says if you take chemo orally, you need to take the assessment. If you are unfit to work by the definitions of the assessment then you would still be unfit for work.

The assessment looks to see if you are capable of doing some work, not all work. Even if that's only five hours a week, the idea is that everybody should do whatever work they can do. Again, without the actual details of the situations mentioned it's impossible to see whether the facts have been bent to fit a particular narrative.

Sorry, my use of the word examination may be misleading perhaps. The assessment states categorically that if you take chemo orally this condition will not excuse you from being unfit for work. If that person then goes on and secures less than a full time job they could be financially worse off, doing less then a days work they will certainly be worse off. They loose all of the benifit once deemed fit for work, apart from JSA which is obviously withdrawn when work is found. Either way its a catch 22 for those genuinely ill/disabled or both if deemed fit for work through a flawed assessment.
The actual examples I used came from the prog'but thousands of people are affected.

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JontyR said:

johnfm said:

league67 said:

Pesty said:

johnfm said:

Boo hoo.

Why don't you dip into your savings and pay these people to sit at home if it so upsetting.

seriously?

Don't think so. Just a desperado wanna-be hard man over the interweb. johnfm, that comment was beyond contempt. If you actually do
think that and it's not just mindless bravado, you should be shot. Preferably, imho, before you contaminate genetic pool.

Heh. I assume you were Captain of your school debating team.

The robust testing and appeals procedure should ( though may not necessarily) weed out people who have chosen sickness benefit as a lifestyle choice.

The question is 'what exactly is too sick to work'?

Quite clearly, some jobs (if they are available) could be done by people with a variety of long term illnesses.

Some long term illnesses may not make work possible. These people are the ones who need welfare support. As with the NHS and most other forms of welfare, the scope creep has become so wide that there is too little help available to genuine claimants.

As for karma, that is what health insurance is for.

Wise words, although possibly slightly insensitively put , but I will stick up for your point.

I worked as a care assistant for many years, and there were 2 types of people, those that want to work, and those that want to freeload.

There was a time when if you were disabled or unable to work, unless your family could support you...you were found dead in the street! I'm not advocating we return to those times, but something clearly needs to be done to stop the rot! What’s worse is there seems to be a culture that spans generations now, so the mother is claiming disability allowance and daughter/son sees how easy it is and fakes it too. Please don’t be naive to believe it doesn’t happen, there are loads of people that are claiming the allowances that could work with minimal adjustment. Maybe if these people hadn’t taken the p1ss for so long, the genuine ones wouldn’t need to lose out. But as with everything we've become more cynical.

Plus as already mentioned, those that want to try do! Those that want to claim, know the system. It doesn’t take much effort to feign a cough, walk slowly, look ill...just watch Ferris...he fooled many people!

It is an unfortunate by product of the system, ruined by the aholes of this world. It isn’t the current governments fault, as they are trying to tackle the mistakes made by the previous lot. The free giving society that once was cannot be afforded any longer.

I haven't read a single post that advocates seriously ill/disabled should be deemed fit for work when common sense alone makes work completely out of the question. It cannot be beyond good practice in devising a relevant assessment. Are you and others saying those that are genuinely unable to work hard luck the skivers are to blame for you losing your allowance!
ps : the extra allowance for illness / disability was brought in under a Tory Government. Many ex coalminers during the 1980's / 90's had Doctors sign these people onto the 'disability living allowance' which gave them some extra money.

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KrazyIvan said:

Just looked up this programme and found it was on the BBC, so not surprised at all by the aim and tone of the programme.

Check out the same subject broadcast by Dispatches on Channel 4 (30th/8/12) titled 'Britain on the sick'.

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rich1231 said:

crankedup said:

Maybe? but thats hardly the point, the debate regarding the current system is far more important, anyhow, thanks for your deep and meaningful input.

Hang on.

You make sweaping points that are not correct and I am in some way in the wrong?

Post up the entire exchange please.

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Oakey said:

crankedup said:

Nobody supports benefit cheats, but these examples are not related to the examinations we are debating in the thread. No mention of the people being subjected to the examinations.

Wtf are you talking about, you said "it's impossible to cheat the system". Clearly these people were cheating the system otherwise they wouldn't have been claiming DLA whilst dicking about at Alton Towers or the like.

As for the 'examinations' in this thread, that guy who had the heart attack had it five weeks later, not two. Any more inaccuracies to your OP?

The examples you posted up and provided links to the source, have not been subjected to the 'new' assessments program. It really is as simple as that. No doubt the time would have come when they would have been called for assessment, not likely now.

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rich1231 said:

crankedup said:

rich1231 said:

crankedup said:

Maybe? but thats hardly the point, the debate regarding the current system is far more important, anyhow, thanks for your deep and meaningful input.

Hang on.

You make sweaping points that are not correct and I am in some way in the wrong?

Post up the entire exchange please.

Long quotes are tedious.

I employ people picking up cardboard boxes, they could be one armed it wouldn't make any difference.

Your attitude does the sick and disabled a disservice.

Refusal to post up the entire exchange means one thing only, you have made a baseless and worthless remark. Please elaborate on your assertion of 'my attitude does the sick and disabled a disservice'. Which sweeping statements have I made that are of particular interest in being not correct. Seems to me you are no more than a warrior who cannot escape his paper-bag.

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davepoth said:

crankedup said:

Sorry, my use of the word examination may be misleading perhaps. The assessment states categorically that if you take chemo orally this condition will not excuse you from being unfit for work. If that person then goes on and secures less than a full time job they could be financially worse off, doing less then a days work they will certainly be worse off. They loose all of the benifit once deemed fit for work, apart from JSA which is obviously withdrawn when work is found. Either way its a catch 22 for those genuinely ill/disabled or both if deemed fit for work through a flawed assessment.
The actual examples I used came from the prog'but thousands of people are affected.

No, that's wrong. I've been through the assessment so I do know how it works. There is a list of things which I have mentioned which automatically determine that the person is unfit for work. If they meet one of those criteria (one of which is IV Chemo) then you don't need to be assessed for fitness to work and immediately get the benefit, which is now called the Employment and Support Allowance.

If you don't meet the criteria then you are assessed for ability to work. If you are assessed as unfit to do any work then you will still get the same benefit as if you met one of the automatic criteria.

If after the assessment you are assessed as capable of doing some work, you will receive the ESA on a sliding scale dependent on your ability to work.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Be...

The only time they will get no ESA at all is if they are assessed as having no loss of ability to work. Because that assessment is done as an interview for come of the criteria it is quite possible to lie and get more benefit, or downplay your symptoms and get less benefit.

Completely agree, however, the ESA benefit is interim whilst people await the face to face assessment , usually within 6 months of receiving the ESA, which is the new benefit taking the place of the old incapacity benefit. It is the face to face assessment under debate and it is this assessment which is the cause of controversy. So the initial form filling, as we agree, puts an individual onto 'fit for work' or ESA. Those on ESA will almost certainly be called in for assessments.

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rich1231 said:

crankedup said:

Refusal to post up the entire exchange means one thing only, you have made a baseless and worthless remark. Please elaborate on your assertion of 'my attitude does the sick and disabled a disservice'. Which sweeping statements have I made that are of particular interest in being not correct. Seems to me you are no more than a warrior who cannot escape his paper-bag.

No I use the quote button as it can easily be seen what was posted previously by scrolling up.

So you made a remark saying someone lifting a box isnt a valid test. It is, as I mentioned it is a valid test. I own a mail order business and it is indeed no real impediment to have one arm.

Your assetion that there are large numbers of worth claiments being forced to work is quite insulting to those that have found themselves claiming and are trapped, just needing a firm push to get them back into the working population. If I was disabled, then the last thing I would want is sympathetic nonsense on my behalf of someone like you.

Then post up my remark where I have said box lifting is not a valid test. Frankly you are over exaggerating my posts, why I do not know, however, I have acknowledged the fact that the ill/disabled may want to work, indeed many do. If you can read back my posts you will read that I have tried to be reasonable in acknowledging that not all those affected by illness/disabilities would want nothing else but to work. But the debate is not about those people, it is about those unable to work being deemed fit to do so.
Don't preach to me about how the ill/disabled feel about ethics, my kid Sister suffered a brain tumour at 16 years of age, she passed away in a hospice at 24 years of age with her family at her bedside, including me, so don't you dare preach to me. My eldest Brother is also suffering from an inoperable brain tumour, he collapsed at work and since then 13 years have passed by. He is on constant medication to keep him alive, he suffers dreadful effects from the tumour and medication. He is currently awaiting his ESA assessment interview and is worried out of his life asking me how he will get by if his benefit is stopped. This is real life and personal examples which affect lives. People like you who post crap because you are unable to debate on a sensible level piss me off completely.
It is patently obvious to me that you have never dealt with the chronically sick/disabled people.
ps the cardboard box moving exercise is just one of the tests, not the be all end all.

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rich1231 said:

crankedup said:

Then post up my remark where I have said box lifting is not a valid test. Frankly you are over exaggerating my posts, why I do not know, however, I have acknowledged the fact that the ill/disabled may want to work, indeed many do. If you can read back my posts you will read that I have tried to be reasonable in acknowledging that not all those affected by illness/disabilities would want nothing else but to work. But the debate is not about those people, it is about those unable to work being deemed fit to do so.
Don't preach to me about how the ill/disabled feel about ethics, my kid Sister suffered a brain tumour at 16 years of age, she passed away in a hospice at 24 years of age with her family at her bedside, including me, so don't you dare preach to me. My eldest Brother is also suffering from an inoperable brain tumour, he collapsed at work and since then 13 years have passed by. He is on constant medication to keep him alive, he suffers dreadful effects from the tumour and medication. He is currently awaiting his ESA assessment interview and is worried out of his life asking me how he will get by if his benefit is stopped. This is real life and personal examples which affect lives. People like you who post crap because you are unable to debate on a sensible level piss me off completely.
It is patently obvious to me that you have never dealt with the chronically sick/disabled people.
ps the cardboard box moving exercise is just one of the tests, not the be all end all.

How would you know what I have had to deal with or anyone else for that matter, please don't make assumptions, you really will just end up looking more of a tt that you already do.

Don't use specific examples if you don't want them challenged.

The examples used were for the benefit of posters to have a sense of what the prog' broadcasters used as the basis of the investigations they had carried out. Seemed to me to offer a broad spectrum of the health problems encountered by the assessors. I would have thought that anyone with an ounce of intelligence would have considered the issue in the round, not simply decide for themselves a one armed person is fit for work, which incidentally I agree with. Reading back your posts in this thread it is striking that your contributions are those representing a troll like mentality rather than serious comment.

One day when you have grown up you may look back and think about your callous selfish and shallow mindedness. It is patently obvious that you have had zero experiences of dealing with sick/disabled from the tone of your replies throughout this debate. I suggest it is you that is looking like a fool.