Ulster Flag Protests
Discussion
I'm amazed nobody's started this yet, considering all the implications. It goes to show what I've always suspected - most people in Gt Britain don't know or understand anything about the place, and really prefer not to comment. And successive governments from 1921 onwards have just relied on this antipathy to brush it under the carpet.
Will the present regime have the nerve to call their bluff? It could be the end of the Union - just think of the financial savings for the British taxpayer. Anyone out there have a point of view, or is this another hot potato?
Will the present regime have the nerve to call their bluff? It could be the end of the Union - just think of the financial savings for the British taxpayer. Anyone out there have a point of view, or is this another hot potato?
Art0ir said:
What was the phrase.. "The memory of the British is too poor, the memory of the Irish is too good".
The protests are turning a dangerous corner. The Unionist politicians are essentially admitting that the flag won't go back up. Elements of the Unionist community feel threatened from the latest Census results revealing the Catholic population is fast on the rise. So at the minute they're going nowhere and being pulled in various directions by paramilitaries, hardline unionists, the Orange Order, etc.
"A Protestant State for a Protestant People" is no more, sadly some can't get their head around that.
NI politics is fast becoming much more like traditional politics. Those in Stormont are looking after themselves and their mates. Both parties play on the tribalism of their side of the divide to ensure the votes keep rolling in.
I was wondering if anyone understood what was going on. Your observations are apposite. What amuses me is the banners claiming "apartheid" - if ever there was apartheid in the UK it was the pre-Troubles Ulster.The protests are turning a dangerous corner. The Unionist politicians are essentially admitting that the flag won't go back up. Elements of the Unionist community feel threatened from the latest Census results revealing the Catholic population is fast on the rise. So at the minute they're going nowhere and being pulled in various directions by paramilitaries, hardline unionists, the Orange Order, etc.
"A Protestant State for a Protestant People" is no more, sadly some can't get their head around that.
NI politics is fast becoming much more like traditional politics. Those in Stormont are looking after themselves and their mates. Both parties play on the tribalism of their side of the divide to ensure the votes keep rolling in.
I know what is known here as "certain people" and I know what they're up to. As an Englishman I'm regarded as someone who "doesn't understand" and so I keep my counsel. For the Good Friday Agreement they got the consent of the population of the Province and the consent of the Republic. Nobody asked the British taxpayer - they didn't want to hear the answer.
You're right - it'll never go away. Too many folks who hear what they want to hear, and turn a blind eye to things that don't fit their ideals. Sorry for being a snob, but...
Young people leaving school with NO qualifications
England, Wales and Scotland 12%
Northern Ireland 22%
They do what they're told to do by the "Community Leaders" who rake in a salary paid by Westminster, which pays for their apartment in Benidorm. They're as British as giraffe poo.
madbadger said:
Ah, I missed that when I was using the search facility. Some good posts, and the most observant ones are almost certainly from people living there.How do you define "British"? Dunno. I reckon people in the Falklands live more like the British than the Loyalists. I haven'e a clue how they managed to develop a "tradition" that has no basis in anything done on the mainland. I have family in a large Scottish city and they've never seen an Orange parade, and there was me thinking maybe they brought the marching/flute band habit over with them in the Plantations.
Once a section of the population becomes accustomed to doing things a certain way, it's difficult to get them to change. Meanwhile, who foots the bill? Just think of the hospitals and schools we could spend the money on. Bring on Scottish independence - Cameron could make it a proviso that they take Ulster with it.
Papa Hotel said:
Sorry, but that's a complete fabrication.
to quote David Brent -FACT. It was in the papers and on local TV news, and the TV presenter made a big deal out of the fact that Ulster people think their education system is superior to the mainland. He seemed startled at the truth. That's the 11+ for you....I'd just like to add here, since so many people seem baffled over what is just a flag....
When the Province was established following the creation of the Irish Free State (now the Republic) the local Protestant community assumed they were being given their own country, and to their shame the British Government did nothing much to counter this. Thus resulted what amounted to a loyalist fiefdom, and to be honest the catholic population had little say in anything of importance. So the Troubles arose in 1969 when they had finally had enough (and when the IRA felt sufficiently organised and ready to fight).
The loyalists had it all their own way for so long that they became used to a certain style of living, and now they're completely baffled why they are being asked to change. They don't have any idea that the rest of the UK doesn't behave like they do. It doesn't help that the paramilitary leadership in parts of Belfast have been testing the police for some time now in a battle of wills. This protest has now been hijacked by them as part of their campaign to assume dominance over the locals. When PUP leader Billy Hutchinson says "there are no paramilitaries on the streets" he's not telling a lie - they're smart cookies and "use" the young lads who are so gullible to do the dirty stuff.
The situation is almost irreversible - when you've had your own way for decades it's not easy to accept change. And heaven help us all if the Orange parades are banned. BTW the Protestant pop is 48% of the total, and of these there are about 34k members of the Orange Order. Total pop is about 1.8m.. Assuming that each "orange" family comprise 4 people and that about 50% of the prod pop is traditional working-class "loyalist" I reckon the number who object to the flag proposal is in the region of .... oh bugger this is like an O-level maths question. Let's just say about 25% of the population are angry - that means 75% don't care and I'm sorry, but democracy means they win.
It's like sweets being taken from a toddler.
When the Province was established following the creation of the Irish Free State (now the Republic) the local Protestant community assumed they were being given their own country, and to their shame the British Government did nothing much to counter this. Thus resulted what amounted to a loyalist fiefdom, and to be honest the catholic population had little say in anything of importance. So the Troubles arose in 1969 when they had finally had enough (and when the IRA felt sufficiently organised and ready to fight).
The loyalists had it all their own way for so long that they became used to a certain style of living, and now they're completely baffled why they are being asked to change. They don't have any idea that the rest of the UK doesn't behave like they do. It doesn't help that the paramilitary leadership in parts of Belfast have been testing the police for some time now in a battle of wills. This protest has now been hijacked by them as part of their campaign to assume dominance over the locals. When PUP leader Billy Hutchinson says "there are no paramilitaries on the streets" he's not telling a lie - they're smart cookies and "use" the young lads who are so gullible to do the dirty stuff.
The situation is almost irreversible - when you've had your own way for decades it's not easy to accept change. And heaven help us all if the Orange parades are banned. BTW the Protestant pop is 48% of the total, and of these there are about 34k members of the Orange Order. Total pop is about 1.8m.. Assuming that each "orange" family comprise 4 people and that about 50% of the prod pop is traditional working-class "loyalist" I reckon the number who object to the flag proposal is in the region of .... oh bugger this is like an O-level maths question. Let's just say about 25% of the population are angry - that means 75% don't care and I'm sorry, but democracy means they win.
It's like sweets being taken from a toddler.
Papa Hotel said:
Link me.
I will try to find it. It was on UTV 6pm news and my family laughed like hell. The presenter said something like " does this mean we've been wrong all these years?"The grammar schools are very very good. My experience of those who went to my local secondary school is somewhat different. Barely literate.
But you're talking about Glasgow, the one other place in the UK where there are divisions on religious grounds.It's also the one other place where there are regular "parades" with bands and all the regalia - don't believe the hype that it's a tourist attraction, there's a deep malice behind it all.
It's interesting that nearly all the Ulster people I've met who spent any time living in Britain, didn't like it and couldn't wait to return "home". They couldn't get used to the British way of life, and yet consider themselves British . All very odd.
Meanwhile, we've recently celebrated the signing of the Covenant, effectively an act of treason, and at the least an intention of insurrection. How can you be proud to be British, and also proud to fight the British?
It's interesting that nearly all the Ulster people I've met who spent any time living in Britain, didn't like it and couldn't wait to return "home". They couldn't get used to the British way of life, and yet consider themselves British . All very odd.
Meanwhile, we've recently celebrated the signing of the Covenant, effectively an act of treason, and at the least an intention of insurrection. How can you be proud to be British, and also proud to fight the British?
Hyde said:
Stormont(NI's parliment) and most Council buildings only fly the flag on a limited number of preset days.
Belfast City hall was one of the few Council/Government buildings(if not the only one) left flying the Union Jack everyday.
As far as I'm aware Council/Government buildings in England don't fly the flag everyday
So the change makes the City hall fit in with everyother Council/Government building, but there is all this fuss
Crazy isn't it
They have been told this, but choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit with their own idea of Britishness. There is more to the whole rioting thing than just the flag - the dumb monkeys who are on the streets are being manipulated by the gang leaders with their own agenda.Belfast City hall was one of the few Council/Government buildings(if not the only one) left flying the Union Jack everyday.
As far as I'm aware Council/Government buildings in England don't fly the flag everyday
So the change makes the City hall fit in with everyother Council/Government building, but there is all this fuss
Crazy isn't it
Edited by Hyde on Tuesday 8th January 13:48
BTW Sway, most NI people I know are really nice, great sense of humour, generous (did you know they give more to charity per capita than anywhere in the UK?), and they enjoy a drink. But there are 4 cultures here, not the 2 we're always told about. Two are the extremists of loyalism/republicanism and the other two are the middle-classes of both religions who sit back, batten down the hatches, and try to pretend that it has nothing to do with them. They could do something about it if they put their minds to it, but it's probably too late.
Sway said:
I don't doubt it.
The shock for me was that you typically believe that those at the extremes are obvious, and typically ill educated and unsuccessful in wider society.
The shock for me was a) being on the receiving end of prejudice, something I've never experienced before and b) how successful these guys had been in both their careers and in hiding their beliefs.
In fact, as stated originally, none of us could understand what was behind their behaviour until beer and football showed us quite unpalatably what the underlying belief structure was.
I may well be over in NI later in the year for work, I'll give you a shout so you can demonstrate that generosity - in the local pub!
I'm as tight as a duck's whatsit. I'm English but have lived here for 30 years. Sometimes it's like living in a foreign country - the atmosphere of society is like nothing I've ever experienced in GB, much more akin I would imagine to the Irish. Which is what makes their claim to Britishness even more odd.The shock for me was that you typically believe that those at the extremes are obvious, and typically ill educated and unsuccessful in wider society.
The shock for me was a) being on the receiving end of prejudice, something I've never experienced before and b) how successful these guys had been in both their careers and in hiding their beliefs.
In fact, as stated originally, none of us could understand what was behind their behaviour until beer and football showed us quite unpalatably what the underlying belief structure was.
I may well be over in NI later in the year for work, I'll give you a shout so you can demonstrate that generosity - in the local pub!
They're friendly until you disagree with their way of life. The 12th July is more important than Xmas to them- a huge annual event. It's difficult to get across to mainlanders that their culture is like nothing known elsewhere, except perhaps parts of Glasgow. There's a march to celebrate anything, even the Lodge master's dog's birthday. Everything has to stop for them, and the police charge huge bills to Stormont, and then pass the cost to Westminster.
I've hated every year. I stay for a reason, but I'm depressed by it all. Weirdos.
Papa Hotel said:
Such overblown dramatic nonsense.
Weeelll... the bit about the dog's birthday was made up. I live in a town with high unemployment and a huge majority of working-class loyalists - they basically run the town. Where I come from, people like that tend to stay-put on their estates and not meddle in things they know nothing about. Not here, but I suppose that's perfect democracy.In the past 20 years, I've been mugged 7 times, and had three cars stolen. Low-life. I used to live "back home" in a respectable area, and I'm simply not used to living like this. I know, I know, there are place all over the UK like that now, but I simply associate it with the people in this town.
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