No limit on Indian immigration

[Fantic SuperT]

From the Conservative Party website: "We are restoring order to our immigration system to bring annual net migration down to the tens of thousands – rather than the hundreds of thousands we saw under Labour – by the end of this Parliament."
http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/Where_we_stand...

18th Feb: David Cameron said there was “no limit” to the number of Indians who would be allowed to study at UK universities and stay on in graduate-level jobs after they qualified.

How can these two positions be reconciled?

[Fantic SuperT]

JensenA said:

Because one statement concerns uncontrolled immigration, and the other is allowing University Graduates who have studied in the UK AND obtained a job, to stay here.

According to Wikipedia: The demographics of India are inclusive of the second most populous country in the world, with over 1.21 billion people (2011 census), more than a sixth of the world's population. Already containing 17.5% of the world's population, India is projected to be the world's most populous country by 2025, surpassing China, its population reaching 1.6 billion by 2050. Its population growth rate is 1.41%, ranking 102nd in the world in 2010.
India has more than 50% of its population below the age of 25 and more than 65% below the age of 35.

If 50% of the youth (below 25) are able to get degrees (like the UK), then that restricts immigration to a potential 25% of 1.21 billion. In other words the UK won't take more than 302,500,000. Assuming only 17% chose to study in the UK that leaves 51,425,000 who could be looking for work after graduation and may accept lower wages that the current workforce (as happened in IT).

[Fantic SuperT]

Pothole said:

may have missed something, but where are they going to find 51m university places? (or beds?)

Therefore the real limit is on the number of places non-bogus universities can potentially provide, local accommodation, and the number of jobs they can get afterwards.

[Fantic SuperT]

Pickled Piper said:

This. Many were exploiting the ease with which you could get a visa based on a bogus University place. These requirements have been tightened. If you have the financial means, have a place at a legitimate University and a sufficient grasp of the English language you can now get in and can work here on graduating.

pp

There are currently around 500,000 university places provided each year in the UK. Since there's nothing to prevent universities expanding to accept more fee-paying foreign students, and there are millions of Indian students, the next limit is the number of jobs they can get (at any legal rate of pay) upon graduation. That doesn't seem likely to result in overall 'net immigration in the tens of thousands' as stated on the Conservative party website.

[Fantic SuperT]

Pickled Piper said:

You are assuming all of the young population of India has the inclination and means to study for a degree in the UK. Remember a significant number of the young population are iliterate and lack the means to a buy a bicycle, let alone pay UK uni fees. Of the those that want and can afford to get a degree, many are choosing the USA and Canada over the UK. Hence Dave's efforts to make them more welcome here.

pp

No I wasn't. I took the 17% figure that was the proportion of Indian students who came to the UK in 2010, although I have assumed the same number of Indians could study for a degree as British under 25s (to avoid discrimination based upon race or nationality) at 50% of the total of under 25s.
"Assuming only 17% chose to study in the UK that leaves 51,425,000 who could be looking for work after graduation and may accept lower wages that the current workforce (as happened in IT)."
In reality this number will be lower because our foreign aid budget doesn't currently stretch to providing education for all of them. There is however, an enormous number of potential students if India continues to grow economically.
BTW: You misspelt illiterate.

[Fantic SuperT]

ralphrj said:

Where does that figure of 17% come from? I can't believe that 17% of all Indian students come to the UK to study (only 15% of Indian students even go to high school).

http://monitor.icef.com/2012/11/number-of-indian-students-heading-abroad-up-300-over-past-decade
"The UK overtook Australia in 2009 to become the second-most important destination for Indian students (after the US, the UK attracted 17% of all Indian students studying abroad in 2009)."

http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?sto...
"Despite visa restrictions the United Kingdom remains the top foreign destination for Indian students. According to data available for 2010, almost twice the number of Indian students who applied to study higher education abroad chose colleges in the UK over the United States. Latest data for entry into college for 2010 show that the UK has issued 57,500 student visas, almost double the number issued by the US (32,000)."

I'll concede that many will not be choose to study abroad, but this is clearly a means of by-passing other immigration rules if an Indian wants to take a graduate-level job in the UK. I'm guessing Cameron's mates in the CBI have asked for more cheap staff to replace their UK workers who want to be paid enough to buy a home of their own etc.

Edited by Fantic SuperT on Wednesday 20th February 13:04

Edited by Fantic SuperT on Wednesday 20th February 13:10

[Fantic SuperT]

Munter said:

If there are no jobs, they will leave with their qualification they paid us for.

Or, as happened in IT, they will work for a fraction of the local going rate for a job and tolerate a poor living standard because it's preferable to returning to their Third World country.

I've just come from a meeting where all (not some or most) of the computer programmers were Indian. They aren't very good but they aren't paid much either. When we try to recruit staff the preferred-supplier agencies only send CVs for Indians and Africans because they can earn a bigger margin on the fixed rate for each defined role. I haven't seen a CV for a white British person in two years and I'm not likely to ever again. The Systems Analyst was a Nigerian with a council house he obtained after living here with his sister for two years. Very good European workers I've known from previous jobs (and would definitely hire again given the chance) submit their CVs to the agencies but never get forwarded from the agencies for us to hire them, without discussion on rates of pay even beginning.

The same thing happened in Textiles (and areas like Bradford) in the 1970's. You might not think it's such a good idea if they come for your job.

[Fantic SuperT]

Breadvan72 said:

On what basis does someone who, actually or metaphorically, got off the boat a bit before someone else have some sort of inherent prior claim to a job if a job is available? There is no one now living in the UK whose ancestors did not get off a boat at some time. OK, if you can find that one bloke who never took a boat, but came here (from Africa) on the land bridge when it was still up, shake his hand, and ask him WTF with all those stone circles and stuff, but his claim to a job is no better than anyone else's, assuming all are equally willing to pay taxes and not do crimes.

It's OK for you to believe Britain should have no border controls on immigration, but my original question was how such values can be reconciled with the manifesto of the Conservative party to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands when they are shared by the Prime Minister (so far as Indian student immigration goes). I believe the reason the Conservatives still have that policy on their website is because large numbers of voters hold a view which opposes yours.

As for my company fixing deals with suppliers who only provide Third World staff, that is beyond my control and for every one that gets sacked another one arrives. It is not possible to hire a European if we never see a CV from one. Perhaps Bulgarians will compete with Indians on rates of pay, but that's not much consolation for the people born here and who's ancestors fought to preserve a certain way of life that included waiting your turn in queues and not sodcasting music on trains.

[Fantic SuperT]

DJRC said:

Are you taking the piss sunshine? You are in Berkshire and in 2 yrs you have not seen a single non-white comp sci or IT tech apply for a job with you? Incidentally how can you tell from a CV if they are white or black?

And driving rates lower? Its about £30 an hr for a contractor give or take £10. Knocking on £40 for a senior experienced chap. Astrium's standard rate is £37 an hr recruited via Scom.

Sir, I declare you a moron.

A: I don't work in Berkshire.
B: I've yet to meet a white man called Adyinka, Deepak, Bhalaji or Fukka
C: Those rates were normal in the 1990s. Have you heard of inflation?
D: You're apparently entitled to call me 19th century names from the safety of your keyboard but be careful experimenting with that when if you ever speak to people face to face.

[Fantic SuperT]

DJRC said:

Those rates were as of 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. They havent changed. I know the rates very well. I can also tell you the permie rates. I can do the same for large parts of Europe aswell if you wish.

Sir...you are still a moron. I can throw in a cpl of Swiss insults if it will make you feel better?

So you accept Indians have driven rates back to 1990's levels, thanks. Blöde Fotze.