Meet the Fokkers
Discussion
Ozzie Osmond said:
Also there's the question of risk. Self-employed people face the real risk of absolute failure and few workers in the private sector make their way through a career without their company going bust, closing the factory or whatever.
I had a colleague who couldn't get his head around why someone who sets their own firm up should take the spoils. He was adamant they should be shared equally with the employees, rather than them 'just' getting a wage.Even when I reminded him that it can be the norm when setting a firm up to put everything on the line; earnings, your house, the gamble of a pension etc, he just didn't get it.
Interestingly, he is Greek.
He now works in the public sector.
With reference to the comments by sidicks and other general comments on the Topic I posted.
I am going to have a look at my initial post and reconsider whether it reflects what I was attempting to say.
I'm not sure it does.
Bear with me as I'm at work,so it'll probably be tommorow before I can get my head around it.
I am going to have a look at my initial post and reconsider whether it reflects what I was attempting to say.
I'm not sure it does.
Bear with me as I'm at work,so it'll probably be tommorow before I can get my head around it.
avinalarf said:
With reference to the comments by sidicks and other general comments on the Topic I posted.
I am going to have a look at my initial post and reconsider whether it reflects what I was attempting to say.
I'm not sure it does.
Bear with me as I'm at work,so it'll probably be tommorow before I can get my head around it.
The Finance forum is generally very effective at answering specific finance questions where they are genuine and where the tone of the OP is reasonable. I am going to have a look at my initial post and reconsider whether it reflects what I was attempting to say.
I'm not sure it does.
Bear with me as I'm at work,so it'll probably be tommorow before I can get my head around it.
Conversely, where someone appears to be posting with a particular bias / agenda, purely to rant about things they demonstrably don't understand and with no intention of listening to those who know what they are talking about then threads are less successful.
While the sort of discussion I think you are trying to construct doesn't necessarily fall into the latter category, neither does it really fit the former, so I'm not sure this is the best place for what you are trying to achieve.
Having said that, I'm not a Moderator, so it's nothing to do with me!
avinalarf said:
Is it only me ?
Only me that find it depressing and is quite frankly baffled ?
Only me that finds a complete lack of empathy by some of the guys on the finance forum,for the nurses,the refuse collectors,the bus drivers , the oap's living on a fixed income, and so many others that work in low paid unskilled or semi skilled jobs,but jobs that are vital for the benefit of our communities and society as a whole.
Are they jerking my chain,wind up merchants....what do you think ?
For 8 years now we've felt the effects of the banking crisis,the decrease in pension annuities,the very low returns on bank saving accounts,the inflation in housing prices and rents, in London especially,zero rate contracts that might suit some but a fair proportion want the security of a "proper" job.
Why do they refuse to grasp the fact that many average Joes are not financially savvy and even if they do have a grasp of the basics don't really want to involve themselves in the stock market or BTLs,both a popular way of increasing ones wealth,at present.
Why do they not see that the gap is widening between the haves and the others,or they do see and don't care,and that this cannot be good in the future for our society.
I know that some people are doing ok,and that others take advantage of our benefit system,that's a given but there are a fair few others that are struggling.
I haven't come across any lack of empathy here for nurses, refuse collectors, bus drivers, OAP's, etc.Only me that find it depressing and is quite frankly baffled ?
Only me that finds a complete lack of empathy by some of the guys on the finance forum,for the nurses,the refuse collectors,the bus drivers , the oap's living on a fixed income, and so many others that work in low paid unskilled or semi skilled jobs,but jobs that are vital for the benefit of our communities and society as a whole.
Are they jerking my chain,wind up merchants....what do you think ?
For 8 years now we've felt the effects of the banking crisis,the decrease in pension annuities,the very low returns on bank saving accounts,the inflation in housing prices and rents, in London especially,zero rate contracts that might suit some but a fair proportion want the security of a "proper" job.
Why do they refuse to grasp the fact that many average Joes are not financially savvy and even if they do have a grasp of the basics don't really want to involve themselves in the stock market or BTLs,both a popular way of increasing ones wealth,at present.
Why do they not see that the gap is widening between the haves and the others,or they do see and don't care,and that this cannot be good in the future for our society.
I know that some people are doing ok,and that others take advantage of our benefit system,that's a given but there are a fair few others that are struggling.
Edited by avinalarf on Friday 12th August 19:42
It is also evident that people here completely understand the the 'average Joe' has very little financial awareness and indeed that really is the purpose of this forum. A wide spectrum of advice is sought and kindly provided free of charge by other members who have greater knowledge and experience in these matters (or who are professionals in such sectors).
Of course people would benefit from having greater financial awareness and it should have been made part of the national curriculum a long time ago - and needs to be added to it urgently.
This would be of huge benefit for those that want to pro-actively better control their financial situation and at least inform those that have no interest whatsoever of the pitfalls out there and the importance of ensuring they don't fall fowl of these.
This is probably one reason why the gap is widening though, some people want to do something about achieving the best financial outcomes and others simply can't be bothered as they don't consider it important and believe there will always be someone else their to bail them out (the state and all those ambulance chasers advertising on TV and radio everyday).
Scrapping zero hour contracts would also help, but I don't think the PH Finance forum has much influence in that.
What is does do, however, is provide a community of help, assistance and education for any member who asks. And it is provided willingly and for free. I really wouldn't knock it.
Some fair points. Money avoiders, worshippers, inspectors and avoiders will always exist and financial education in schools doesn't really help as much as we one thought it would, evidence from the US has shown that. Current research indicates that cues from domestic money scripting are far more influential in a young person's financial awareness. In other words, mothers, fathers and grandparents need to play their part. Alas, many are now negative role models. If schools hammered maths properly, and used the effects of (for instance) compounding to demonstrate interest and growth, that's be a start. If industry presented cheap, transparent, simple products and pricing, too, that'd help.
ThunderGuts said:
One of the topics which will demonstrate the opposite to the OPs assumption is.....
Pensions.
Check out the past threads along the lines of 'whats a pension'. People are pretty helpful.
I'll give you 3 answers:Pensions.
Check out the past threads along the lines of 'whats a pension'. People are pretty helpful.
1) A small bed and breakfast hotel
2) a regular payment made during a person's retirement from an investment fund to which that person or their employer has contributed during their working life.
3) a wrapper
Helpful?
(well ok, at least 2 are understandable to the 'mits').
Well good for you, jack!
As a geriatric 'mits' I've occasionally found 1) to be helpful, including most lately a couple of years ago a most excellent one in Sardinia. Y'know, the kind of place where if el padrone likes you he materialises out of thin air of a balmy evening with a slab of local queso and a special bottle of el local plonko.
2) was something I tried very hard to sort out for myself, but somehow never managed to achieve regardless of taking advice or throwing in money etc etc. I've even managed to fekk up the state one (though in fairness I never thought there would even be one by the time I retired).
3) Well that's the door to the worm can, isn't it? The wonderful world of paying for advice which isn't really advice and having to know what you're doing and doing it yourself and believing that successful investment management means only losing 10% of your money when the industry average loss is 15%. Wrapper shmapper. Kiss my crapper.
What I want is number 4). But number 4) did not, does not, and never will exist. Not for me anyway, and now it's way too late, so in my case pensionism has been a waste of time (and some cash too).
As a geriatric 'mits' I've occasionally found 1) to be helpful, including most lately a couple of years ago a most excellent one in Sardinia. Y'know, the kind of place where if el padrone likes you he materialises out of thin air of a balmy evening with a slab of local queso and a special bottle of el local plonko.
2) was something I tried very hard to sort out for myself, but somehow never managed to achieve regardless of taking advice or throwing in money etc etc. I've even managed to fekk up the state one (though in fairness I never thought there would even be one by the time I retired).
3) Well that's the door to the worm can, isn't it? The wonderful world of paying for advice which isn't really advice and having to know what you're doing and doing it yourself and believing that successful investment management means only losing 10% of your money when the industry average loss is 15%. Wrapper shmapper. Kiss my crapper.
What I want is number 4). But number 4) did not, does not, and never will exist. Not for me anyway, and now it's way too late, so in my case pensionism has been a waste of time (and some cash too).
drainbrain said:
Well good for you, jack!
As a geriatric 'mits' I've occasionally found 1) to be helpful, including most lately a couple of years ago a most excellent one in Sardinia. Y'know, the kind of place where if el padrone likes you he materialises out of thin air of a balmy evening with a slab of local queso and a special bottle of el local plonko.
2) was something I tried very hard to sort out for myself, but somehow never managed to achieve regardless of taking advice or throwing in money etc etc. I've even managed to fekk up the state one (though in fairness I never thought there would even be one by the time I retired).
3) Well that's the door to the worm can, isn't it? The wonderful world of paying for advice which isn't really advice and having to know what you're doing and doing it yourself and believing that successful investment management means only losing 10% of your money when the industry average loss is 15%. Wrapper shmapper. Kiss my crapper.
What I want is number 4). But number 4) did not, does not, and never will exist. Not for me anyway, and now it's way too late, so in my case pensionism has been a waste of time (and some cash too).
...which is the sort of nonsense often posted on here despite numerous explanations. Failing to understand what an IFA does (and does not) do and then compounding the error by confusing relative and absolute performance approaches.As a geriatric 'mits' I've occasionally found 1) to be helpful, including most lately a couple of years ago a most excellent one in Sardinia. Y'know, the kind of place where if el padrone likes you he materialises out of thin air of a balmy evening with a slab of local queso and a special bottle of el local plonko.
2) was something I tried very hard to sort out for myself, but somehow never managed to achieve regardless of taking advice or throwing in money etc etc. I've even managed to fekk up the state one (though in fairness I never thought there would even be one by the time I retired).
3) Well that's the door to the worm can, isn't it? The wonderful world of paying for advice which isn't really advice and having to know what you're doing and doing it yourself and believing that successful investment management means only losing 10% of your money when the industry average loss is 15%. Wrapper shmapper. Kiss my crapper.
What I want is number 4). But number 4) did not, does not, and never will exist. Not for me anyway, and now it's way too late, so in my case pensionism has been a waste of time (and some cash too).
No wonder it gets fractious in here at times. You do have to wonder what's in it for the 'non-experts" when they post deliberately misleading and incorrect statements, thus spoiling the thread for those who are actually seeking help. It's almost as if they are trying to make themselves look stupid.!!
Edited by sidicks on Saturday 13th August 14:38
Obviously there's a certain perspective from which the sense in what you say is inarguable. But it's not really for everybody. It's like education. A good education is inarguably something which can benefit kids. But not every kid.
What I think you have to be very careful with is laying down defined borders. That's a surefire way to encourage mediocrity. Some kids will be far better off NOT feeding pension plans. And some kids would be far better off getting away from the education system. These things can be great for some, but stifle others.
Personally I'd say without doubt the majority of successful people I know neither benefitted from a good education nor directed much if any effort into providing themselves with a pension.
What I think you have to be very careful with is laying down defined borders. That's a surefire way to encourage mediocrity. Some kids will be far better off NOT feeding pension plans. And some kids would be far better off getting away from the education system. These things can be great for some, but stifle others.
Personally I'd say without doubt the majority of successful people I know neither benefitted from a good education nor directed much if any effort into providing themselves with a pension.
Interesting view, however I'd happily wager that unless a retirement on the state is the goal, for the vast majority of the population a pension is the prudent choice.
Suggesting to your spawn that a pension doesn't matter would be very foolish.
eta: conscious we're veering marginally off topic
Suggesting to your spawn that a pension doesn't matter would be very foolish.
eta: conscious we're veering marginally off topic
drainbrain said:
Obviously there's a certain perspective from which the sense in what you say is inarguable. But it's not really for everybody. It's like education. A good education is inarguably something which can benefit kids. But not every kid.
What I think you have to be very careful with is laying down defined borders. That's a surefire way to encourage mediocrity. Some kids will be far better off NOT feeding pension plans. And some kids would be far better off getting away from the education system. These things can be great for some, but stifle others.
Personally I'd say without doubt the majority of successful people I know neither benefitted from a good education nor directed much if any effort into providing themselves with a pension.
While individual anecdotes are interesting, the point remains that the majority will benefit from a decent education and that starting saving (in whatever vehicle) as early as possible is likely to be the most productive approach.What I think you have to be very careful with is laying down defined borders. That's a surefire way to encourage mediocrity. Some kids will be far better off NOT feeding pension plans. And some kids would be far better off getting away from the education system. These things can be great for some, but stifle others.
Personally I'd say without doubt the majority of successful people I know neither benefitted from a good education nor directed much if any effort into providing themselves with a pension.
Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff