Retirement funded by BTL - Reality after 1 year.
Discussion
sidicks said:
Of course, there's no such thing as income oriented investment strategies for ISAs. Oh, wait...
Once again, suggest you stick to what you do understand, rather keep repeating nonsense about that which you demonstrably don't!
Nurse! Nurse!!! It's the poison again!! Quick! Where's the antidote???Once again, suggest you stick to what you do understand, rather keep repeating nonsense about that which you demonstrably don't!
Edited by sidicks on Saturday 29th October 09:02
Calm down doctor, here it is:
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=...
Simpo Two said:
drainbrain said:
By the way, that McGuigan is a nice tasty vino. Not too dear either. Suppose the fecked pound is going to boot the price of that simple pleasure into outer space soon.
Anyone with equity-based investments, which is most people, have done very well from the 'fecked pound', as are exporters. I'm certainly not complaining.Una cerveza por mi mujer y por mi una copa di vino blanco muy frio y muy seco por favor.
Seguro senor! perfecto! Todo mas?
Si, la cuenta.
La cuenta, senor….la cuenta. La cuenta es dos mil euros!!
EH?????!!!!!!!!
Pero senor! No es mi falta! Es el rata del cambio por libros esterlinas esta hoy!!
Countdown said:
So (as I understand it) you're 63 now and you're intending to invest for 10 years. And you have lots of other sources of income. And you've also got capital investments which are hyper-simple yet deliver 40%pa growth. To be honest it doesn't make sense to me (I appreciate it might make sense to you)
Why invest in an S&S ISA for 10 years if you're aged 63?
Why invest in an S&S ISA if you can invest in something which is growing at 40%pa?
What kind of "passive" investment grows at 40%pa?
What's your final goal? AT which point will you retire?
I appreciate we're all different. Ive got a goal in my head about how much income I'll need to retire and how I'm going to get it. When I get to that point I'll be spending my time restoring Datsun 180Bs and taking 6 month cruises but, as has been mentioned, we're all different.
You've actually opened up another benefit point of btl. Particularly as a portfolio builds in numbers the door starts opening to management of same and then becoming that manager and then adding the management of others' portfolios. And then a huge and interesting range of people start appearing many of whom do many interesting things. And 'ere long you start getting involved in this that and the next thing - often with people well established and versed in what they're doing because it's provided the funding for the properties they bring you to manage for them. And because of the numbers involved in property deals joint ventures are very common. So someone you've done something with might well ask you if you want into this or a part of that etc. etc. Why invest in an S&S ISA for 10 years if you're aged 63?
Why invest in an S&S ISA if you can invest in something which is growing at 40%pa?
What kind of "passive" investment grows at 40%pa?
What's your final goal? AT which point will you retire?
I appreciate we're all different. Ive got a goal in my head about how much income I'll need to retire and how I'm going to get it. When I get to that point I'll be spending my time restoring Datsun 180Bs and taking 6 month cruises but, as has been mentioned, we're all different.
So yeah you end up in all kind of things.
One thing I'm "in" is a rag trade venture now coming up to the end of its second year. We planned to import a container load of mostly sports clothes 4 times a year, but in reality we can only do 3. It's the same money turning round and each time a 16%+ margin is made. The stuff's pre-sold and the way it works is it's delivered direct to the buyers/wholesalers from the docks. The non-sleeping partner then collects in the payments and wires it back to the factory (owned by his father's brother or 'blood uncle') which then sends the next container. Very little extraneous expenditure. 8%pa is probably more than sufficient.The other 40% (3 x 16% - 8%) is ploughed back into the steadily increasing orders. We planned to stop the 100% plough back at a certain point and then draw most of the margin as income instead. Say 30% of it, leaving it to grow at 10%. But I have a funny feeling my partner will want to keep the growth going and going and going and that Income Day will never dawn for me. Ahh who gives a toss! So that's that. I'm the money in the scheme. And the money is from compensation RBS paid me for cheating me over loans for the BTL business. So really the whole thing is yet another btl offshoot! By the way, the wholesalers send the products to markets and shops all over Europe and even beyond. So the thing could theoretically expand for a good few centuries if we're going to produce every form of clothing in every size and every variety of colours and styles for both sexes for a multitude of outlets. I suppose it's sort of interesting but all I really do is eat a desi curry with Ajmal every few months and have a run thru the paperwork.
As to the ISA, well part of it is curiosity. When you start the process you've got to go through a 'risk' test to ascertain your risk appetite. Mumbo jumbo if you ask me and a nonsensical waste of time that possibly ties up with ass-covering some time in the future when the thing bombs. But I'm an 8, apparently. Out of 10. So even at this stage you can tell how I'm going to be blamed for its disastrous outcome. Then you get a projection of performance which requires you to use a time period. So I chose 10 years. So I guess if the thing's not a waste of time (unlikely), and stays 'on-plan' (unlikely), when I'm 74 I'll have a lump of money. What for? Good question. I genuinely do not know.
Final goal? Don't have one. Never did. Prefer temporary goals and find they change a lot anyway. There's a helluva lot of 'been there done that' in my life and absolutely no desire to repeat stuff even if it's been hugely enjoyable and that's because for one reason or another it's no longer appropriate.
As to retirement, I really am genuinely 'retired' now and, for what it's worth, really enjoying it, tho I miss spending the day with people I like doing largely whatever we felt like doing. I didn't decide to stop working. I was seriously injured and permanently disabled and had to stop. The rehab also requires my attention for hours of every day. BUT. This has opened up a whole new world of different amazing people, including from Headley Court who have just sent me next week's "orders" via email from my NHS clinician here in Scotland. OMIGOD!! Gradients and slopes!!!! Yesterday I walked 180 metres on the best above-knee prosthetic legs known to man (the originals being in the bin or the incinerator). And I reckon within 3-6 months I'll be fully community ambulant. So guess what? LOL! Time for that late-life career start!! And next week's goal is to ascend and descend a light slope!
Some sad sack earlier accused me of boasting. Well here's a boast. AFAIK I am the only GERIATRIC bilateral transfemoral amputee in the world to have a 100% successful prosthetic outcome (which means no sticks, canes or other assistive devices)!! I start being a case study at two local universities in a fortnight including at the world renowned Dept of Biomedical Engineering at Strathclyde Uni and if you ever do happen to come across another one PLEASE put them in touch. Peer support's a vital part of prosthetic rehab and since February my only peer support has been outrageous soldiers especially marines and including Invictus medallists and the like who forget I am old enough to be their grandad and seem to think I'm made of whatever they're made of which would appear to be granite! Only kidding. They're great kids even if they're tough and I'm so lucky to get rehab training alongside them.
sidicks said:
slippy pension salesman wormtongueism
You fully appreciate the stupidity of this when you consider what happens if the thing performs spectacularly well or even satisfactorily. Then who gets the pat on the back? The manager (who wasn't going to be responsible for anything if it went badly)? Me? (who can't even determine the difference between a wrapper and an investment)? The robot? (who as far as I know is the only active part of the thing)?Hmm. My view? If it goes wrong, well who was it who decided to put money in it in the first place? And if it goes ok? Well isn't that nice. Must've been my finely honed question answering skills in the risk assessment! And if it goes really well? Given I know jack and the "manager" doesn't do responsibility I guess it'll be down to the robot.
Trust me here. BTL is a LOAD simpler. Buy a wee shop. Rent it out. Occasionally s
t will happen. Mostly it won't. End of. Sheesh! Anyway just to convince you I know a rapper when I see one, here's your alter ego once more:
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=...
Countdown said:
So, if the investment is making 48%pa and you're reinvesting 40%, taking 8% as income, what's Ajmal's share?
Ok. Aj sends £100k to the factory. They manufacture and deliver the stock direct to the buyers. Aj then collects £116k from them. Which he sends to the factory. Who manufacture and deliver the stock to the buyers. Aj then collects £138k from them. Which he sends to the factory. Who manufacture and deliver the stock to the buyers. Aj then collects £164k from them. Which he sends to the factory. A year has now passed. Except that costs nibble a bit of the margin each time. So if the year begins with £100k it will end with £140k or maybe more but not the full potential £164k because there's always some extraneous expenditure or loss.
Is that clearer?
What does he get? The 'pain' of doing a bit more of what he does anyway with only the comfort of future gratification to keep him warm. One day he will get fed up with continually ploughing back the gain and the margin gain will become income. The longer he leaves it the bigger the income will become. Neither he nor I need to take it at the moment. Maybe we will one day. Maybe we won't. We also have a label building up. But the way we're doing this that'll be a long slow process. However I've told him we should specialise in big fat people clothes and make a name in that niche quite quickly. He's thinking about it and so soon we may have a container of 3-8XL stuff. In a frenzy of activity I 'phoned two largish stockists of fat folk clothes both of whom would be delighted to see samples.
If you are a big fat person I will send you a sample if you pay for it at the wholesale price. As you are a PHer it can be CoD if you like.
sidicks said:
You fully appreciate the stupidity of this when you consider what happens if the thing performs spectacularly well or even satisfactorily. Then who gets the pat on the back? The manager (who wasn't going to be responsible for anything if it went badly)? Me? (who can't even determine the difference between a wrapper and an investment)? The robot? (who as far as I know is the only active part of the thing)?
Hmm. My view? If it goes wrong, well who was it who decided to put money in it in the first place? And if it goes ok? Well isn't that nice. Must've been my finely honed question answering skills in the risk assessment! And if it goes really well? Given I know jack and the "manager" doesn't do responsibility I guess it'll be down to the robot.
Except of course that demonstrates a further lack of understanding.Hmm. My view? If it goes wrong, well who was it who decided to put money in it in the first place? And if it goes ok? Well isn't that nice. Must've been my finely honed question answering skills in the risk assessment! And if it goes really well? Given I know jack and the "manager" doesn't do responsibility I guess it'll be down to the robot.
Are you talking about absolute performance or relative performance?
Are you using a passive fund or an active fund?
Why don't you tell us what fund you've chosen to invest in?
You're a very strange individual indeed.
Okay. I know I shouldn't, because it never gets anyone anywhere with you, but I'm going to indulge you.
This PHer called GingeR has branded this financial idea called "Fiver A Day".
Access his profile and click on the link and the whole thing is there for you to understand. You like understanding. There's something to read to your heart's content.
Alternatively, and especially if there is something unclear on the Fiver a Day site, then ask him. I have never spoken with him but he appears to be easily approachable and communicates politely and pleasantly as far as I can gather.
I pay into a S&S ISA with a no.8 risk profile. And I may be wrong here, but it appears that he is offering something for people who want to pay into it and eventually end up with more money than they paid into it available to them to take out of it. That really is all they want to do and all they want to achieve.
As to performance, I'll try to explain. There is poor performance. That would suggest less in the thing at any time than was put in. Then there is mediocre performance. That would suggest a bit but not much more in the thing than was put in and certainly not as much as something else equally as straightforward could have provided. Then there is good performance. That would be a good bit more in it than was put in and more than an alternative option could have provided. There is a biblical passage which kind of explains this too: Matthew 25, 14-30. The Parable of the Talents.
I trust between me, the 5er a Day site, The Bible and GingeR too if required, all your queries about this, erm, 'investment' and its terms will be clarified.
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=...
Edited by drainbrain on Saturday 29th October 17:56
Countdown said:
drainbrain said:
Ok. Aj sends £100k to the factory. They manufacture and deliver the stock direct to the buyers. Aj then collects £116k from them. Which he sends to the factory. Who manufacture and deliver the stock to the buyers. Aj then collects £138k from them. Which he sends to the factory. Who manufacture and deliver the stock to the buyers. Aj then collects £164k from them. Which he sends to the factory. A year has now passed.
Except that costs nibble a bit of the margin each time. So if the year begins with £100k it will end with £140k or maybe more but not the full potential £164k because there's always some extraneous expenditure or loss.
Is that clearer?
Crystal clear. What I still don't understand is , why is Ajmal using your £100k, doing all the hard work, and receiving (afaics) nothing as YOU are the one making the £40k ? Except that costs nibble a bit of the margin each time. So if the year begins with £100k it will end with £140k or maybe more but not the full potential £164k because there's always some extraneous expenditure or loss.
Is that clearer?
Why does he not borrow from family/friends and do some kind of profit share, or get a bank loan? In fact he could probably borrow from Ocean Finance or his credit card and still end up making more money....drainbrain said:
What does he get? The 'pain' of doing a bit more of what he does anyway with only the comfort of future gratification to keep him warm. One day he will get fed up with continually ploughing back the gain and the margin gain will become income. The longer he leaves it the bigger the income will become. Neither he nor I need to take it at the moment.
But he HAS no gain. You're the one making 40%. Do you have any equity in the business? is it a formal partnership or LtdCo or is it a casual agreement between friends?Revisitph said:
drainbrain said:
Folk in unburdened 3 bed flats in SW10 worth £3M or £4M who could be living in a mansion on an estate here and living off a 100 property portfolio bringing them 10k a week yet prefer not to. Bizarre really.
Perhaps they prefer living in SW10?sidicks said:
drainbrain said:
This PHer called GingeR has branded this financial idea called "Fiver A Day".
Access his profile and click on the link and the whole thing is there for you to understand. You like understanding. There's something to read to your heart's content.
I'm familiar with GingeR and his site. It's excellent.Access his profile and click on the link and the whole thing is there for you to understand. You like understanding. There's something to read to your heart's content.
It's interesting because the questions in the survey discuss all the points that I normally address, and which you normally dismiss as "slippy pension salesman wormtongueism" or some such similar nonsense.
The site also emphasises the downside risk faced and the possibility of large negative returns with the chosen strategy.
Finally, the strategy has 3 main sources of risk:
1) market risk - the performance of the underlying markets
2) manager risk - allocation to the underlying strategies
3) manager risk - performance of the underlying funds
I assume you answered 'Strongly Agree' to the question asking whether you were very knowledgeable about investments and the stock market?!
drainbrain said:
I pay into a S&S ISA with a no.8 risk profile. And I may be wrong here, but it appears that he is offering something for people who want to pay into it and eventually end up with more money than they paid into it available to them to take out of it. That really is all they want to do and all they want to achieve.
As to performance, I'll try to explain. There is poor performance. That would suggest less in the thing at any time than was put in. Then there is mediocre performance. That would suggest a bit but not much more in the thing than was put in and certainly not as much as something else equally as straightforward could have provided. Then there is good performance. That would be a good bit more in it than was put in and more than an alternative option could have provided.
When you understand the different types of risk (and the performance of each component in the overall return) then you'll be halfway there to determining who to thank/blame for the performance!As to performance, I'll try to explain. There is poor performance. That would suggest less in the thing at any time than was put in. Then there is mediocre performance. That would suggest a bit but not much more in the thing than was put in and certainly not as much as something else equally as straightforward could have provided. Then there is good performance. That would be a good bit more in it than was put in and more than an alternative option could have provided.
Edited by sidicks on Saturday 29th October 18:05
Did you read The Bible passage? Because that can't really have been expressed in any simpler terms.
Try to see The King as the investing client. And the servants as the investment managers. The 5er a Day client/King - a very common type of client/King - isn't interested in bibble babble about main sources of risk or subsections of risk within those main sources or any jerk around complications of any kind which, lets face it, like any excuses and explanations could become endless. He's only interested in performance and 100% certainly isn't interested in any nonsense about subtypes of performance. Performance is performance. Bottom line as they say. What the investment made.The useless servant/investment manager's attempts at explaining to the client/King how it's really the client/King's fault (because of what he's like) doesn't wash. In fact it just angers the client/King even more. "first you're telling me you did nothing with my money and made nothing out of it and now you're telling me it's down to ME?? The client/King isn't either interested in being told that in order for his investment to perform he's got to understand this that and the next thing. No No No. He's interested in handing over his investment and returning to a profit. And unsurprisingly the better the profit/performance the happier he is and the more he rewards the investment manager.
Whilst there's probably - no, definitely - a different type of client/King who might indeed want to know and get involved with every aspect of the investment , then just like a property owner who wants into every aspect of its management that type of client/King may well be better off doing his own investment or management of his asset.
But the 5er a Day client/King wants to set up his payment, go about his business, and come back later to hopefully discover that like the two successful servants in the parable, there has been profit made by the system.
The 5er a Day owner knows that those who do profit from his system will reward him with more business and will advise others to join his system. Equally he knows that he will eventually have no clients if his clients don't make anything from it. But in my case all I'm after is to see and see over different timescales how the performance as I measure it sits against, for example, btl investments or other potential ventures too. In this case there is but ONE risk to my way of thinking. And it's the same as the client/King in the parable. And that risk is that my input shrinks or remains the same. In which case I may decide to stop it or even withdraw from it should it become obvious that, like the parable, the money should be taken away from the unfruitful investment manager and given to the fruitful one (better earning investment) instead. .
Trust me here, all investors are the same as the biblical king. They want the best return they can get. Are you saying you know some way how to do this? Or are you saying that all this understanding ain't worth a row of beans? Because if the latter's the case then wouldn't you be bettervto re-evaluate YOUR strategy and opinion of risk?
I think like many people you don't see the wood for the trees. You're off fretting about categorising risks when the only real risk is failure. Pity the unproductive servant in the parable didn't realise that. And I didn't see any sign in the parable of the productive servant needing the king to know how he succeeded or, for that matter the king showing any interest in how his success was achieved. Learn from it. It's why it was given to you.
Revisitph said:
As was a fair bit of London in those days - you'll be old enough to remember the M Jagger film "Performance" with enormous Notting Hill houses in a then-very-grotty area, subdivided into HMOs.
Turner: " Come now, gentleman your luuuuurve is all I crave..You'll still be in the circus when I'm laughing….laughing…
…in my graaaaaave"
Nevern Square…used to do some 'erm shopping there….
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=...
'69-'70 Brian Jimi Jim Janis RiP
Red Danny en La Rive Gauche
Stones in the Park
144 Picadilly
Wonder if its possible to forget all that even when you eventually go senile?
Countdown said:
drainbrain said:
Countdown, I've known Aj (and his ginormous family) since he was a wee boy. I don't need any contract with him or he with me. He has no money in the game. I got a 'fallen fruit' windfall and that's the money in it. He, bless him, does what little needs done in the 'sweat equity' sense though this is not mining for coal.
So you're doing nothing and he's doing very little and the combined return is 48%? And of this 48% you're taking out 8%, he's taking out nothing (not even income) but doing all the paperwork to reinvest the remaining 40% per annum? drainbrain said:
If it ends up with nothing then my windfall stake is gone and he's wasted some of his time. If it ends up making money or growing (which is a certainty) then half the growth and any income we choose to take is his.
But it IS making money and growing. So is 24% of the return Ajmal's to do with as he wishes? What's confusing me is that he seems to be doing all the work without drawing any income, whereas you're doing no work and earning 48$ total returndrainbrain said:
We may also end up with a label worth someone buying. Again, half his.
So who is doing the sales, marketing, PR, brand development etc. to create the brand in the first place?drainbrain said:
It 'costs' him very little effort and me none and we are now ordering more than twice what we ordered on day 1 so we are happy with it. IF we keep it going and there is no reason not to, I would imagine in a few years - 7 or 8 - I might ask him if he'd like to start drawing income from it. That is if he hasn't asked me before then. But right now its only satisfaction is of visible growth and a growing potential for income in the future.
So you're the boss/CEO/100% shareholder. He's going to work for 7-8 years for free so that your investment can grow at 48% compound pa. But you're going to give him half of the growth and some income??? Apologies if I'm coming across as cynical but none of the above makes sense to me. I guess that's why I'm not an entrepreneur. I still can't see why he just doesn't get a loan. Off-topic my cousin was asked to invest in an estate agency-related business about 20 years ago. he was asked to invest £16k which would give him 25% of the agency and his original £16k would be repaid in instalments of £8kpa over 4 years (ie £32k) So basically he would double his money over 4 years AND have a 25% share in an EA in London... you might be able to guess what happened.
On topic: I think you're a pleasant chap to chat with, but there's obviously some blockage (prob. my explanation) preventing you understanding this very simple "business" of mine.
Imagine 2 guys. Jack's got a market stall. Joe has a wad of cash. Jack says to Joe, why don't you put up the cash for some stock that I can sell from a small table beside my stall? We can go 50-50 on what we make. But once it's sold, instead of taking the proceeds of the sales and removing some as profit we can take ALL the proceeds and buy more stock so the second order will see a bit more on the table to sell. And we'll do the same again. And again. Okay, we won't be taking home any profit, but we'll see the amount of stock rising and rising and the amount we make from it rising and rising simply because there's more of it. Then ONE day we'll stop that, and take most of the profit we make from the now huge mountain of stock, leaving only a little bit of the profit to continue the mountain growing even bigger though growing bigger much more slowly. Now all this time, Jack's been fine, because he's still running his stall and making himself a wage. Joe's fine too, because he's still making a wage from whatever got him the cash to buy the earliest stock order in the first place. So they just let the thing roll on. Now and then they can't return ALL the money to growing the stock mountain because the odd bill comes up. But not that often. So just as planned the mountain of stock that began as just a small table full just goes on growing.
Now. This is the good bit. IF they'd taken the first proceeds from the sales of the very first table full of stock and each taken a wage from the profit and left just enough to buy the same small table full of stock, true they'd have had a wage each from day one, and still had the original amount to keep replenishing the stock. But because they put ALL the sales proceeds back in and did the same again and again they've now - one day - got the proceeds from a MOUNTAIN of stock to take out as wages although still prudently leaving enough to keep replenishing the mountain and even a bit extra to keep it growing albeit slower because they are now removing most of the profit from selling the stock mountain as wages.
That's what we're doing. Now Jack doesn't feel put out as the operating partner for a few reasons. One is that the extra he has to do is just changing a number on a bit of paper. So instead of emailing the manufacturer to order 100 pieces, he now has to write 150 instead. And when he's transferring the stock purchase cash he has to write £30k instead of £20k on the transfer slip. Ok there's a BIT more to it than that, but not a lot. Maybe a couple of hours a week extra to do. So one day Jack and Joe decide that they don't want to do this anymore and decide to stop it. They sell off the stock and there's a huge wad of cash. Joe MIGHT say give me back my original tiny wad of cash and we'll split the rest. But more likely he just splits the huge wad with Jack and walks away happy - a small wad having turned, over a period of time, into a large wad.
As to the brand, that is a very much longer and more complicated matter to explain. A lot of it has to do with an initial difficulty, which is getting agreements from certain key wholesalers to give it display space amongst the established brands which form 90% of the industry's sales. Right now we deal with distributors which isn't the same at all. Takes time. A lot of time. But we're not in any rush. The steady and satisfactory progression of sales will do as a way to build the brand. I jokingly estimate that we'll be about the same size as Nike in around 7,500 years. After all, it's only a bit of fun, really, and it's going fine.
sidicks said:
As has been explained to you repeatedly, you should stick to the stuff you know and understand, and seemingly do very well, rather than demonstrate your lack of understanding about this stuff! Leave that to the professionals.
Hmm. How can I remove the complexity from this so that it can be understood. Ok . Here goes:Edited by sidicks on Saturday 29th October 20:00
D'uh. This bloke's got an idea….it's called a 5er a day.
I send it some money every month
People…maybe small gnomes, robots, or even cages full of cats or kidnapped geniuses, who one assumes are 'professionals', at a place called Paramecium or Aberdeen Angus or whatever are hopefully doing something with that money I'm sending other than putting it in a hole in the ground or spending it on 'ores.
I am doing what I know and understand. Nothing mostly, being at least temporarily 'retired'. Leaving these 'professionals' to do whatever it is they do.
I rather get the impression that this 5er a Day caper has been set up, in part, for the many many people like me who want nothing more than to get on with what we know and understand whilst leaving these 'professionals' to make our wad of cash into a bigger wad.
What part of this do you feel I don't understand, and what part of this do you feel is not being left to 'the professionals' ?
Here…listen to this. The chorus has been written for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bogz2xZy-bo
IanCormac said:
768 said:
Bloody hell, a property round here that would sell for 10x that value rents at less than 3x what you're getting.
Where do you live that a £250k house rents at about £120 a month?Not exactly the same but I rent a £125k commercial for £6k a year (which is probably as crap a return as an annuity would give). Can't wait till it's sold (next year).
Edited by drainbrain on Sunday 30th October 10:35
Ozzie Osmond said:
drainbrain said:
it's only polite to respond and often teaches patience.
Indeed it is, and does. Be assured that your deceptive opening post and crass contributions in this thread will not deter me (and others) from trying to assist PHers who raise genuine issues in the finance sub-forum.
How long have you been retired?
In retirement, how have you found YOUR chosen funding method has worked out?
With hindsight, what would you have changed in your approach prior to your retirement funding?
How do you - as an outsider - see the innumerable potential ancillary benefits btl provides (from recreation and amusement through to opportunity for horizontal and vertical diversification) as an impact on choosing btl as a retirement funding method?
….and so many more.
I'm forming the impression that quite a few sub-forum advisers have a very narrow spectrum of perception of finance, and because they have that in common they've decided that this naivety somehow "adds value". It doesn't. It restricts value. And reinforces a hatful of myth.
As to 'crass', try this…...
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=...
Countdown said:
Hi drainbrain - thanks for the comprehensive responses
In your original email you implied that you weren't bothered about growth, yet this investment which shows 48% pa annum returns seems to be all about growth. As does your 5er a day ISA. All of it seems a bit haphazard to me.
The Ponzi: That's pants. Know the feeling. Had my pocket picked clean in Marbella by a character who I went to help when I thought he'd hurt himself in a fall. Didn't realise as I helped him up that he was helping himself! It was day 1 of a holiday too which meant it became a credit card holiday. Some of these people are very good at what they do.drainbrain said:
Off topic: I guess the £16k went 'dahn the plug'ole'. He was unlucky. '96 would have been a very good time to start a property shop.
Not unlucky. It was a scam, a Ponzi scheme pure and simple designed to attract suckers in. I told my cousin that nobody gives you 25% interest on a loan AS WELL AS giving you equity in the Company. The old adage "too good to be true" turned out to be just that.drainbrain said:
On topic: I think you're a pleasant chap to chat with, but there's obviously some blockage (prob. my explanation) preventing you understanding this very simple "business" of mine.
I'm fairly sure I understand. I'm an accountant by profession and did a bit of audit as part of my training. I've seen lots of business plans during my time. I honestly don't remember seeing any which promised to deliver 48% pa ROI.In your original email you implied that you weren't bothered about growth, yet this investment which shows 48% pa annum returns seems to be all about growth. As does your 5er a day ISA. All of it seems a bit haphazard to me.
Back to the biz:
At outset I determined that a tracksuit could be manufactured and delivered to a distributor for £12 which the distributor would pay £14 for. (He shleps them to retailers at a margin who then punt them from anything from £20 upwards but that's not my business). So we do this in volume. We return all the proceeds into the next order which is theoretically 1/6th bigger. And so on. Neither of us needs wages from it so we just let it keep rolling up. We can turn the order 3 times a year. If we could do it by airfreight we could probably multiply that significantly, but we can't. From arrival to next re-order takes up to a month. Hence 3 times a year as it takes 3 months for delivery by sea freight.
As to growth, what on earth does a retired man living on the proceeds of a business whose income grows anyway need with growth, especially growth which will probably never crystallise into income or if so only for a short time? So what point this rag trade "enterprise" or the ISA? Well exactly. You tell me. Y'know for a few yearsI had a pretty successful company. Once a year the partner and me and the wives would go away somewhere nice for the weekend and "hold an AGM". And one day sitting at dinner I said to him: "What's the point in what we do"? He was aghast! I said "no no no I'm not saying it's pointless like a moan, I'm saying what's the point as in goal because we've never discussed it". Y'know we never did establish a goal so I just concluded we were doing it because we could do it. For it's own sake. Like 'why does a dog lick its balls'? That's probably why when external circumstances severely curtailed the business we stopped it and went our separate ways. Still remain friends to this day, but there really never was any defined aim in that business. Actually the ISAs a bit of an experiment. So there's that. But the rag trades a complete waste of time for me which is why I rarely spare it a thought.
On much the same subject, not entirely to my delight (because it obviates the error of wasting time over-providing) I'm discovering that retirement isn't in the slightest bit expensive, in fact quite the opposite. And fag packet calcs are leading me to the impression that it is far from impossible for a couple to live perfectly adequately on the boring ole State pension or certainly not much more. Part of this stems from ignoring "advice" since childhood on financial prudence. So having squandered rather than saved all my life I've already sated myself with the things many people seem to be looking forward to doing when they give up whatever it is they dislike enough to want to stop it. I also think the older you get the less you need to have, so the less you need to worry about having.
Jon39 said:
I know almost nothing about the person to whom you are asking your questions, However, having read some of his (or her) contributions, I can tell that there is certainly some wise advice being offered.
I think that one barrier, is probably that many people know about property and hence the popularity of BTL. Ossie Osmond appears to favour equity investment, and although that has outperformed others during the past 100 years, it is not so widely understood. Some effort, interest, discipline, patience and experience is required, to achieve good investment results in that field. Done the correct way, what is possible would surprise many people. Learning yourself is the way to go, because any intermediary needs to concentrate on their fees, rather than the performance of your money.
As this topic is about retirement, I will just say that the percentage income increases (total dividends) during retirement, have far exceeded the State Pension percentage increases. Oh, and retirement began nearer to 50 than 60.
Then you get much more relevant. Sort of. Because all the attributes you mention can be applied to anything including btl to achieve good or better results. One beauty of btl is that anyone with funds can buy a few properties, give them to a letting agent and hey presto! Money in a bank account. Ok not ALL the money ALL the time. And occasionally NONE of the money (though scale can reduce that to an extreme unlikelihood). But in general on average it all smooths out and a few properties will provide an income commensurate to scale. And here's the point. Investment via financial instruments won't. Not so simply and not for everyman. Ask the countless multitude who have signed up for this that and the next thing. The level of dissatisfaction in general is enormous. Actually to the point where people say pension? endowment? annuity? ….waste of time. And that's after decades of investment in them. Oho! you say, but that's where all the special skills disciplines and application come in! But people aren't looking for "a job". They're looking for something to do with the money they've made. And they want that something to be it's growth or an acceptable income from it.
I'd also say your statement about advisers is (in many cases today) a wee bit harsh. They're not all entirely selfishly motivated. And it isn't that they don't want your investments to do well, it's just that they really don't know how to make them do well and the methods they've been trained to apply don't really work either. Not really. Not for Everyman. And on many an occasion not even for themselves. And no wonder. Try to see 'investment' like gambling. There are certainly professional gamblers. Probably best known in the poker world. Lots of applications of skills and disciplines there too. But only a few make it big, a larger number make a living, and a colossal number make nothing. Then there's the punter. Almost everyone in that zone makes less than nothing. They lose whatever they stake. To do that in property requires bad luck. Same in investment. But to make NOTHING, or next-to-nothing is very very common. Much harder to do in property because much less is a matter of luck. To a certain extent and via a massively complex process, some people believe that "risk" can be understood. But don't kid yourself that "risk" is any different between gambling and investment. A large and sprawling diversified share investment between asset classes, sub-classes, markets and countries would in theory produce an almost infinite number of potential "risks" to understand. There's much more to say on this.
Can I end by acknowledging your comment on retirement 'age'. There's almost certainly going to be a lot of discussion about retirement in the coming years and decades. Part of that will be about 'age' or 'optimal age'. Brilliant topic. Once upon a time 'early retirement' was considered a positive goal to try to score. Not now. Not by any measure. Ask Mr Jagger or Mr Buffet why it's not, and try to get away from the Osmond/Sidicks et al mindset of seeing any perspective other than their own as a personal insult and attack. You certainly don't seem to carry that unpleasant gene and it's certainly not one you want to inherit. Why does Branson not retire? He's got a nice foreign pad and plenty of cash and a host of well known interests. So why doesn't he announce he's chucked it? Y'see the whole spectrum of retirement issues are going to start opening up. And THAT rather than stupidly trying to work out some crackpot method of making traditional financial planning work is going to decide how millions upon millions of people adapt to survival not only in their old age but throughout it.
Take it from me, a btl portfolio on its own can provide a perfectly adequate retirement pot. THAT's the message of the thread.
AMDBSTony said:
I have no argument here but having been blasted myself on this forum, seems to me like there is a form of pack hunting that goes on.
The thread has gone well off topic which was a BTL funding retirement.
I have some BTL, albeit fairly expensive properties, which go a fair way to supporting my retirement. Suppose it depends on how much you need to live?
My prererence is bias towards commercial as they are longer term and are on full repair and maintenance contracts. Domestics are backed off by rent guarantee insurances to lessen the risk.
There is no right or wrong here, if some want BTL then we should respect that is what they want. Equally, if others want to employ others to look after their hard earned via stocks and shares then that is up to them.
Cannot see why the so called investment experts have to coerce others into agreeing with thier way as being the best and only way.
You could argue that if anyone very successful, they too would have retired and wouldn't give a toss about whether people agreed with them or not.
No doubt this post will be duly dissected, some bits marked in bold, and then taken completely out of context.
Unfortunately not everyone sees PH the same way. Personally I see it as an entertainment form. Something that can provide a bit of recreation fun and amusement. Of course it also provides some very interesting insights and advices. Note I said 'interesting' which ain't necessarily the same as 'wise'. "Wise" would be to get off the damn computer and go spend the hours doing something MORE interesting.But it's just entertainment really. Some people have a rather more let's say serious take on PH, and (I don't mean the mods). They see themselves as the forum policeman or the forum adviser or whatever. A few people encourage them and bingo! Role established. Precedents set! Let their Regulatory Regime commence and hell mend the non-conformist!The thread has gone well off topic which was a BTL funding retirement.
I have some BTL, albeit fairly expensive properties, which go a fair way to supporting my retirement. Suppose it depends on how much you need to live?
My prererence is bias towards commercial as they are longer term and are on full repair and maintenance contracts. Domestics are backed off by rent guarantee insurances to lessen the risk.
There is no right or wrong here, if some want BTL then we should respect that is what they want. Equally, if others want to employ others to look after their hard earned via stocks and shares then that is up to them.
Cannot see why the so called investment experts have to coerce others into agreeing with thier way as being the best and only way.
You could argue that if anyone very successful, they too would have retired and wouldn't give a toss about whether people agreed with them or not.
No doubt this post will be duly dissected, some bits marked in bold, and then taken completely out of context.
Oddly enough, the last few years of my working life were the same. A good business can run itself (sort of) so most of the day was increasingly spent with the other owners largely amusing ourselves as best we could. Actually I've had the odd revelatory experience where I see the whole business thing from top to bottom worldwide as a rather silly and frivolous waste of time. It's also pretty transient. Not many businesses survive 10 generations never mind 10000 years. But that's thinking a bit too deep innit bruv!
Often on this sub-forum shade is thrown at people showing interest in btl as an income provider especially for retirement.
Well this thread is to fully reassure them that it certainly is possible because I've just done it for a year. All life's expenditures from the fixed to the surprises plus a small surplus has been generated by a typical year of btl.
Tony like me you are probably aware of how many different permutations of the property business can provide successful returns. And it is wholly pointless trying to prove that one of these is 'superior' to another. You have your expensive properties (not for me) and use rent guarantee cover (not in a million years thanks). And I have my multiple 'dungeons' and commercial stuff which cost less than you would believe possible and let using a lease called a 'nod and a handshake'. Yet down at HR Owen the proceeds from our albeit different business plans spends exactly the same. There isn't a right way and a wrong way there are just different ways.
Some of these 'advisers' aren't aware that what they're doing is 'scaring' people away from doing things they could be doing very well from. They SHOULD be investing in this that or the other financial instrument. And doing it by doing no more than signing up to a plan. But the forum policemen want to create some shroud of mystery wherein special skillsets and 'understandings' are required. There's no good protesting that you've already GOT a special bloody skill set which is why you've got the money to invest in the first place. And the 'advice' you want isn't how to get a new career as a stockbroker or finance analyst, it's who to ring who's GOT that skill set who can turn your 10 talents as the parable recounts, into 20!
There's a challenge for the forum cops. Using this knowledge and understanding, where can I dump £100k a year that'll generate £10k of pretax spendable income by the following year? NOT where can I find a course called 'investment for beginners'. Just make the bloody 10%. Because I can do that. I'm just BORED doing it and I'd like an alternative. And if you CAN'T do that stop pretending to have some financial expertise or right of advice.. Because ANYONE can do it with btl. And many do. And some are retired. And I'm one.
Where's flippin' Warren Buffet when you need him? Not on here that's for sure. No wonder. Think I'll follow that example before I end up with 30000 posts and wondering wtf I wasted so much of my life on a flaming' social media entertainment show.
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