House in the sticks, new install, Gas or oil?
Discussion
Possibly a stupid question but why do you need oil or gas?
We don't have gas at all as connection to the mains was cost prohibitive. Everything in our house is electric (apart from the wood burner in the lounge). Immersion heater heats a very well insulated water tank at night, and we still have hot enough water for a bath in the evening. Heating is all electric underfloor which is not as expensive as some people seem to think it is to run as each room has its own fully programmable thermostat so is really controllable. The electronic stats mean the element under the floor isn't on constantly, only when the temp falls out of a certain range to boost it back up.
We don't have gas at all as connection to the mains was cost prohibitive. Everything in our house is electric (apart from the wood burner in the lounge). Immersion heater heats a very well insulated water tank at night, and we still have hot enough water for a bath in the evening. Heating is all electric underfloor which is not as expensive as some people seem to think it is to run as each room has its own fully programmable thermostat so is really controllable. The electronic stats mean the element under the floor isn't on constantly, only when the temp falls out of a certain range to boost it back up.
I dont "need" oil, I just think the current electric setup is a bit of a bodge job, the storage heaters are huge and ugly, and I want a proper, long lasting system.
There is a well insulated tank that supplies the bath and taps, but if we take more than a shower each it runs out and you've got to "boost" it for a hour before you get more.
Also the heat given by a wet system is so much nicer than element heated.
Re: the gas hob, if I was going oil I'd just settle for induction, not that fussy, just hate traditional electric infared type hobs.
There is a well insulated tank that supplies the bath and taps, but if we take more than a shower each it runs out and you've got to "boost" it for a hour before you get more.
Also the heat given by a wet system is so much nicer than element heated.
Re: the gas hob, if I was going oil I'd just settle for induction, not that fussy, just hate traditional electric infared type hobs.
sidekickdmr said:
Ok so log burning is out with the tank thats needed I dont have anywhere for it!
So im back on oil again.
Access for oil shouldnt be an issue, my septic tank guy can make it up no issue and thats the same size.
Seems the way to go is buried oil tank and external oil combi boiler.
What am I looking at for the above install, plus 3 rads and UFH?
We used to have 3 acres of woods in the middle of nowhere and had the same issue as you regarding oil or gas tank but nothing else.So im back on oil again.
Access for oil shouldnt be an issue, my septic tank guy can make it up no issue and thats the same size.
Seems the way to go is buried oil tank and external oil combi boiler.
What am I looking at for the above install, plus 3 rads and UFH?
In the end we went with oil, but also had 2 woodburners with back-boilers installed so they were plumbed into the heating system. That way when the burners were running (on our own free logs) we could run the rads from them, but when it wasn't cold enough to light the log burners but the house needed a bit of heating, the oil system was there.
As for costs, it was a while ago but something like £7k for boiler, tank, piping and rads plus the cost of a couple of woodburners and installation (IIRC £3k).
sidekickdmr said:
I dont "need" oil, I just think the current electric setup is a bit of a bodge job, the storage heaters are huge and ugly, and I want a proper, long lasting system.
There is a well insulated tank that supplies the bath and taps, but if we take more than a shower each it runs out and you've got to "boost" it for a hour before you get more.
Also the heat given by a wet system is so much nicer than element heated.
Re: the gas hob, if I was going oil I'd just settle for induction, not that fussy, just hate traditional electric infared type hobs.
Fair enough, I've never been in a house with full wet underfloor heating everywhere so can't comment on whether its a nicer heat than full electric u/floor. I do know our room temperatures seem a lot more consistent than our old house with conventional gas combi and rad's as the whole room is an even temperature, not just the bit next to the radiator.There is a well insulated tank that supplies the bath and taps, but if we take more than a shower each it runs out and you've got to "boost" it for a hour before you get more.
Also the heat given by a wet system is so much nicer than element heated.
Re: the gas hob, if I was going oil I'd just settle for induction, not that fussy, just hate traditional electric infared type hobs.
re the bath/shower thing should have added we have an electric shower which feeds off the cold so the hot water in the tank doesn't get much use I guess, esp as we are both at work during the day. Can see multiple showers in the morning would definitely make a dent in that.
Bill said:
sidekickdmr said:
Gas has the added benefit of having the scope of a gas hob of course.
No benefit at all imo, induction is better.we stuck with electric in our cottage
We have a mahoosive hot water tank that heats overnight on economy 7 and a boost in the afternoon. We are yet to run out of hot water.
You can also get some powerful eklectric showers now (ie they produce more than a dribble)
sidekickdmr said:
Ok so a standard oil install seems to be the way to go.
Can you get external combi boilers for oil, that dont require a tank?
If they are external, do they have to be in an insulated building/box?
Yes you can. We have two from this range for our holiday cottages.Can you get external combi boilers for oil, that dont require a tank?
If they are external, do they have to be in an insulated building/box?
Other similar products are available, e.g. https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/products/boilers...
They stand in a convenient out of the way spot - no insulated building required, but do come in their own insulated box.
tr7v8 said:
whoami said:
Oil.
If you chose gas, the installation is owned by the provider and you cannot shop around for better prices as you can do for oil.
Also, they carry out a mandatory safety check every year which you are contracted to pay for.
This, the rip off charges my mother used to pay for her LPG install were incredible. The gas price was high as you cannot shop around, you're limited to the tank supplier. Oil has saved her a fortune.If you chose gas, the installation is owned by the provider and you cannot shop around for better prices as you can do for oil.
Also, they carry out a mandatory safety check every year which you are contracted to pay for.
R6dug said:
With gas you are tied in with the provider for the duration of a contract.
Once the contract has expired you are free to shop around. Then the rental charge for the tank (Your tank is not replaced anymore the ownership is transfered to the new gas supplier) will be set with your new supplier so shopping around is fairly simple.This changed about 10 years ago
I have never had to pay for a safety check as this is part of the rental agreement.
We have had LPG for the last 13 years with no issue and our house is fairly well insulated
Further to the above and as the reason I know: I am having a calor LPG supply installed on the 24th October.Once the contract has expired you are free to shop around. Then the rental charge for the tank (Your tank is not replaced anymore the ownership is transfered to the new gas supplier) will be set with your new supplier so shopping around is fairly simple.This changed about 10 years ago
I have never had to pay for a safety check as this is part of the rental agreement.
We have had LPG for the last 13 years with no issue and our house is fairly well insulated
Yes the tank remains the property of the supplier - but you can change supplier and they take over ownership of the tank - this was changed a while ago to aid competition.
LPG Tank installation is FREE. unless like me, you opt for an unerground tank, then it is all installed for £1500.
Safety checks get carried out every time the driver turns up as part of the topping up process and has no additional charge (this is calor - other suppliers may do it differently)
Yes you are locked in for a minimum term for the supply. but that's the same as an electricity tariff.
Yes I cannot deny that the LPG costs more per unit - But the main advantages for me going LPG instead of oil was the underground tank - no seeing that ugly oil tank (also installing an oil tank in front of the house requires planning permission)
and the LPG is remotely monitored and automatically topped up without any input from me - so no risk of running out and knackering the boiler.
When you look at the cost per unit, currently oil is far cheaper, oil has been more expensive than LPG at a couple of points in the past but is generally the cheapest and electricity is generally the most expensive.
I did the sums 18 months ago and it was easy to decide on oil rather than elec or LPG
I went for a gas hob (powered by a bottle outside) as a back up because being the the countryside we do get at least 5 power cuts a year.
I did the sums 18 months ago and it was easy to decide on oil rather than elec or LPG
I went for a gas hob (powered by a bottle outside) as a back up because being the the countryside we do get at least 5 power cuts a year.
Buzz84 said:
Further to the above and as the reason I know: I am having a calor LPG supply installed on the 24th October.
Yes the tank remains the property of the supplier - but you can change supplier and they take over ownership of the tank - this was changed a while ago to aid competition.
LPG Tank installation is FREE. unless like me, you opt for an unerground tank, then it is all installed for £1500.
Safety checks get carried out every time the driver turns up as part of the topping up process and has no additional charge (this is calor - other suppliers may do it differently)
Yes you are locked in for a minimum term for the supply. but that's the same as an electricity tariff.
Yes I cannot deny that the LPG costs more per unit - But the main advantages for me going LPG instead of oil was the underground tank - no seeing that ugly oil tank (also installing an oil tank in front of the house requires planning permission)
and the LPG is remotely monitored and automatically topped up without any input from me - so no risk of running out and knackering the boiler.
Rules regarding ownership may well have changed but you are still contracted to your initial supplier for 2 years. Choice of supplier after the contracted period is much more limited (in my area, at least), the price is much more expensive too.Yes the tank remains the property of the supplier - but you can change supplier and they take over ownership of the tank - this was changed a while ago to aid competition.
LPG Tank installation is FREE. unless like me, you opt for an unerground tank, then it is all installed for £1500.
Safety checks get carried out every time the driver turns up as part of the topping up process and has no additional charge (this is calor - other suppliers may do it differently)
Yes you are locked in for a minimum term for the supply. but that's the same as an electricity tariff.
Yes I cannot deny that the LPG costs more per unit - But the main advantages for me going LPG instead of oil was the underground tank - no seeing that ugly oil tank (also installing an oil tank in front of the house requires planning permission)
and the LPG is remotely monitored and automatically topped up without any input from me - so no risk of running out and knackering the boiler.
You can also specify underground oil tanks, just as you can with gas.
RedLeicester said:
S6PNJ said:
If you install a log-burning boiler (which I am in the process of) you'll need a thermal store to go with the boiler
something like this:
So it's not a small item!
SHT!something like this:
So it's not a small item!
whoami said:
Buzz84 said:
Further to the above and as the reason I know: I am having a calor LPG supply installed on the 24th October.
Yes the tank remains the property of the supplier - but you can change supplier and they take over ownership of the tank - this was changed a while ago to aid competition.
LPG Tank installation is FREE. unless like me, you opt for an unerground tank, then it is all installed for £1500.
Safety checks get carried out every time the driver turns up as part of the topping up process and has no additional charge (this is calor - other suppliers may do it differently)
Yes you are locked in for a minimum term for the supply. but that's the same as an electricity tariff.
Yes I cannot deny that the LPG costs more per unit - But the main advantages for me going LPG instead of oil was the underground tank - no seeing that ugly oil tank (also installing an oil tank in front of the house requires planning permission)
and the LPG is remotely monitored and automatically topped up without any input from me - so no risk of running out and knackering the boiler.
Rules regarding ownership may well have changed but you are still contracted to your initial supplier for 2 years. Choice of supplier after the contracted period is much more limited (in my area, at least), the price is much more expensive too.Yes the tank remains the property of the supplier - but you can change supplier and they take over ownership of the tank - this was changed a while ago to aid competition.
LPG Tank installation is FREE. unless like me, you opt for an unerground tank, then it is all installed for £1500.
Safety checks get carried out every time the driver turns up as part of the topping up process and has no additional charge (this is calor - other suppliers may do it differently)
Yes you are locked in for a minimum term for the supply. but that's the same as an electricity tariff.
Yes I cannot deny that the LPG costs more per unit - But the main advantages for me going LPG instead of oil was the underground tank - no seeing that ugly oil tank (also installing an oil tank in front of the house requires planning permission)
and the LPG is remotely monitored and automatically topped up without any input from me - so no risk of running out and knackering the boiler.
You can also specify underground oil tanks, just as you can with gas.
Whereas oil is like petrol, rising and falling daily and with the seasons. Oil requires shopping around for the best price every time you need a refill. I personally like there idea of knowing how much I am paying for the next two years and not having to shop around every refill. Also the automatic refills make it effortless.
Being on a fixed term is very common for electricity tariffs and people are fine with that, why is it always a problem with the oil Vs LPG subject comes up. (people commonly fix their mortgages rather than being on the variable rate too...)
I'm not trying to force my opinion on the OP or you, it's just a fact that everyone is different and has different preferences.
The OP has asked a question and needs all the info to make the best educated decision. I have commented because a couple of bits earlier were incorrect (IE tank cost was high statement and the one saying your tire to the tank supplier for life) I've just been commenting on this post to help provide a different perspective.
sidekickdmr said:
I dont "need" oil, I just think the current electric setup is a bit of a bodge job, the storage heaters are huge and ugly, and I want a proper, long lasting system.
There is a well insulated tank that supplies the bath and taps, but if we take more than a shower each it runs out and you've got to "boost" it for a hour before you get more.
Also the heat given by a wet system is so much nicer than element heated.
Re: the gas hob, if I was going oil I'd just settle for induction, not that fussy, just hate traditional electric infared type hobs.
I think you just need a bigger hot water tank. I'd consider a log burner with a back boiler.There is a well insulated tank that supplies the bath and taps, but if we take more than a shower each it runs out and you've got to "boost" it for a hour before you get more.
Also the heat given by a wet system is so much nicer than element heated.
Re: the gas hob, if I was going oil I'd just settle for induction, not that fussy, just hate traditional electric infared type hobs.
Random thought,
Wood burning glass fronted stove but with a backboiler attached to the central heating system?
A quick google gave me http://www.stovesareus.co.uk/all-stoves/boiler-sto... - that sort of thing.
Yes, initial heat up from freezing will take a while, how you circulate the water (convection or electric pump?), how often you have to keep feeding the rather small stove, any backups are an issue! - on the positive side, you will have a nice fire to look at!
Wood burning glass fronted stove but with a backboiler attached to the central heating system?
A quick google gave me http://www.stovesareus.co.uk/all-stoves/boiler-sto... - that sort of thing.
Yes, initial heat up from freezing will take a while, how you circulate the water (convection or electric pump?), how often you have to keep feeding the rather small stove, any backups are an issue! - on the positive side, you will have a nice fire to look at!
Peanut Gallery said:
Random thought,
Wood burning glass fronted stove but with a backboiler attached to the central heating system?
A quick google gave me http://www.stovesareus.co.uk/all-stoves/boiler-sto... - that sort of thing.
Yes, initial heat up from freezing will take a while, how you circulate the water (convection or electric pump?), how often you have to keep feeding the rather small stove, any backups are an issue! - on the positive side, you will have a nice fire to look at!
One of these was fitted to my house.Wood burning glass fronted stove but with a backboiler attached to the central heating system?
A quick google gave me http://www.stovesareus.co.uk/all-stoves/boiler-sto... - that sort of thing.
Yes, initial heat up from freezing will take a while, how you circulate the water (convection or electric pump?), how often you have to keep feeding the rather small stove, any backups are an issue! - on the positive side, you will have a nice fire to look at!
The issue was that obviously you want heat before you get up so they are generally run in parallel with a conventional boiler and integrating them in isn't cheap - the other option is having two separate heating systems - which also isn't cheap.
Buzz84 said:
I'm paying a guaranteed 33p/l for my gas for the 2 years.
A quick look on boilerjuice shows a price of 33.5p/l for oil currently (obviously not a full direct comparison due to the differing calorific values)
For the OP here is a handy link for price per KWH (I haven't checked the maths but it looks sensible)A quick look on boilerjuice shows a price of 33.5p/l for oil currently (obviously not a full direct comparison due to the differing calorific values)
http://www.confusedaboutenergy.co.uk/index.php/dom...
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