Modern CH boilers - annual replacement?
Discussion
Ferg said:
edwardsje said:
Grant boilers seem to top the SEDBUK efficiency tables - are these a wise choice as no-one seems to have mentioned them?
Grant make some excellent boilers, but this thread seems to be about Gas and Grant only make oil boilers.snotsnfarts said:
snotsnfarts said:
Ive since had a new different brand boiler in and no no faults running for six months but this time really did my homework on selecting
+1 for Worcestor Bosch,sorry forgot to say that my new "works a treat" boiler is a worcester, will never use one of those potterton-baxi sh**e again.Edited by snotsnfarts on Sunday 8th March 08:26
Have only had the thing two years, but my Worcestor Bosch has worked perfectly from the moment it was installed. 
Touch wood this will continue! ;-)
When I was looking for a combi-boiler to replace the old "normal" one in my flat, the various installers I spoke to all said that Worcestor Bosch weren't the cheapest, but were "good" (whatever that means!).
Touch wood this will continue! ;-)When I was looking for a combi-boiler to replace the old "normal" one in my flat, the various installers I spoke to all said that Worcestor Bosch weren't the cheapest, but were "good" (whatever that means!).
Crikey, obviously a topic that many feel a close to. I hadn't expected so many responses so soon.
I will confess that this one has not been serviced for a couple of years but before that it was seeing an engineer more than annual most of the time. Given that the engineer on Thursday said that it looked fine inside, since he had the burner cover plate off to replace a seal 'with a better one' (read: "The originals were poor") and I know from his previous visits (and a conversation he had on the phone with a colleagus whilst he was here) that he is one of their more senior engineers, I find that 'slightly' disappointing. Especially for the cost of the call out charge given that the replacement thermistor must cost very little and involves removing and refitting 2 panels (about 6 screws) and takes 2 minutes. The burner seal took another 5 mins. Heck of an hourly rate.
Whilst I had skipped the service last year since it had had so much work previously, the engieer's comments seemed to indicate that to have done so had not been detrimental. In any case it always seemed that anyone doiing anything to the thing caused a problem to arise within a few weeks. Like this time. My thinking is that getting sucked into a series of expensive replacements is not sensible. When it shows signs of failing I will plan to replace it rather than throw good maney after bad again. This summer was looking like the time for that to be considered seriously. Just didn't quite get that far it seems.
Now, I appreciate that any manufacturer can have problems but a friend who is also an heating systems installer heartily recommends the Worcester-Bosch brand and I note that they offer a 2 year guarantee and an option to extend that to 10 years with an annual service contract. Presumably they have done their sums and figured that will be profitable, which is a good sign but not a guarantee of solid reliable service over the period.
The original boiler fitted when the house was built was a pre-Bosch ownership Worcester which was always a problem though to be fair mostly because in the early days it would get through a new thermocouple for the pilot light every few months (and the pilot would blow out regualrly anyway) because people kept fitting the thermocouple in the wrong place. Once I worked that out and fitted it correctly that particular problem disappeared. Some of those units were working in other houses around here until very recently. Maybe some still are. I know that people who were very happy with them were concerned about having to change as parts became scarce.
The current unit (and its predecessor) are a well known mainstream make that also became foreign owned around the time the current unit was installed. (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on the naming and shaming front until they come back, supposedly tomorrow.)
The predecessor had to be replaced in a hurry when one of the heat exchangers started to leak very badly. A relatively sudden and catastrophic failure. The 'easy' fix with least re-plumbing and re-fluing effort was a direct replacement with the later model. It's fine when it works which is most of the time, but the number of serious and expensive failures on a relatively new unit was disconcerting. Hence the thought of buying cheap and changing often.
Of course the flaw with that plan may be that direct swaps become impossible as the regulation change (almost daily?) and are imposed by enforcing the need to have a qualified installer to do the work (no harm in that per se) but then forcing the installer to follow the current guidelines even if the unit could be swapped into an installation based on, say, last year's guidelines. All in the name of Health and Safety of course.
Sooo.. Could one consider a cheap, throw away after 2 or 3 years if it fails, unit and keep a spare available for about the same cost as buying a 'brand' new unit and running a service contract on it for 7 to 10 years? Exclude any potential savings on Gas usage. I don't believe the figures or the way they are calculated allows for any useful comparison.
Thanks for all the advice so far. I'm tempted to seek a fast swap to W-B but may have a secondary problem arise sionce they seem to need a 22mm gas supply pipe and the current supply, which runs from the attached garage and splits somewhere to feed the kitchen and upstairs airing cupboard separately (probably in the cavity wall I would guess based on the way these properties were built) seems to be only 15mm.
This could be an interesting couple of months. Eon want to change the Gas meter in a couple of weeks and we are scheduling a new kitchen installation for the first week in April, complete with some electrical work that means significant changes to deal with this year's version of the regulations.
Such joy. I may have been sectioned by the time that work is completed.
The only positive thing I can see is that with interset rates on the floor and inflation likely to get rampant there seems to be little point in saving the money ... pretty sad really.
Grant
I will confess that this one has not been serviced for a couple of years but before that it was seeing an engineer more than annual most of the time. Given that the engineer on Thursday said that it looked fine inside, since he had the burner cover plate off to replace a seal 'with a better one' (read: "The originals were poor") and I know from his previous visits (and a conversation he had on the phone with a colleagus whilst he was here) that he is one of their more senior engineers, I find that 'slightly' disappointing. Especially for the cost of the call out charge given that the replacement thermistor must cost very little and involves removing and refitting 2 panels (about 6 screws) and takes 2 minutes. The burner seal took another 5 mins. Heck of an hourly rate.
Whilst I had skipped the service last year since it had had so much work previously, the engieer's comments seemed to indicate that to have done so had not been detrimental. In any case it always seemed that anyone doiing anything to the thing caused a problem to arise within a few weeks. Like this time. My thinking is that getting sucked into a series of expensive replacements is not sensible. When it shows signs of failing I will plan to replace it rather than throw good maney after bad again. This summer was looking like the time for that to be considered seriously. Just didn't quite get that far it seems.
Now, I appreciate that any manufacturer can have problems but a friend who is also an heating systems installer heartily recommends the Worcester-Bosch brand and I note that they offer a 2 year guarantee and an option to extend that to 10 years with an annual service contract. Presumably they have done their sums and figured that will be profitable, which is a good sign but not a guarantee of solid reliable service over the period.
The original boiler fitted when the house was built was a pre-Bosch ownership Worcester which was always a problem though to be fair mostly because in the early days it would get through a new thermocouple for the pilot light every few months (and the pilot would blow out regualrly anyway) because people kept fitting the thermocouple in the wrong place. Once I worked that out and fitted it correctly that particular problem disappeared. Some of those units were working in other houses around here until very recently. Maybe some still are. I know that people who were very happy with them were concerned about having to change as parts became scarce.
The current unit (and its predecessor) are a well known mainstream make that also became foreign owned around the time the current unit was installed. (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on the naming and shaming front until they come back, supposedly tomorrow.)
The predecessor had to be replaced in a hurry when one of the heat exchangers started to leak very badly. A relatively sudden and catastrophic failure. The 'easy' fix with least re-plumbing and re-fluing effort was a direct replacement with the later model. It's fine when it works which is most of the time, but the number of serious and expensive failures on a relatively new unit was disconcerting. Hence the thought of buying cheap and changing often.
Of course the flaw with that plan may be that direct swaps become impossible as the regulation change (almost daily?) and are imposed by enforcing the need to have a qualified installer to do the work (no harm in that per se) but then forcing the installer to follow the current guidelines even if the unit could be swapped into an installation based on, say, last year's guidelines. All in the name of Health and Safety of course.
Sooo.. Could one consider a cheap, throw away after 2 or 3 years if it fails, unit and keep a spare available for about the same cost as buying a 'brand' new unit and running a service contract on it for 7 to 10 years? Exclude any potential savings on Gas usage. I don't believe the figures or the way they are calculated allows for any useful comparison.
Thanks for all the advice so far. I'm tempted to seek a fast swap to W-B but may have a secondary problem arise sionce they seem to need a 22mm gas supply pipe and the current supply, which runs from the attached garage and splits somewhere to feed the kitchen and upstairs airing cupboard separately (probably in the cavity wall I would guess based on the way these properties were built) seems to be only 15mm.
This could be an interesting couple of months. Eon want to change the Gas meter in a couple of weeks and we are scheduling a new kitchen installation for the first week in April, complete with some electrical work that means significant changes to deal with this year's version of the regulations.
Such joy. I may have been sectioned by the time that work is completed.
The only positive thing I can see is that with interset rates on the floor and inflation likely to get rampant there seems to be little point in saving the money ... pretty sad really.
Grant
Hi there
Just had the heat exchanger on my Ariston go after 31/2 years. Luckily under 5 year warranty. Started as a small leak dropping the pressure. Never suspected the boiler as I could see no leaks. Thought it was a small pipework leak. Pumped in the usual leak sealer compounds. At first it did solve it, then it returned with a passion. At this point still thought it would be a pipework problem. However, before ripping the floors up, got the warranty people out to check the boiler under threat of "A small charge" if nothing was found to be wrong with the boiler.
He arrived next day. At this point the pressure was all gone in a couple of hours so had to keep my eye on it. And this was during the recent cold spell.
He took the front off the "firebox" (for want of a better term)Then he pumped the pressure up to about 2 Bar using the filling loop, and the leak was plain to see. The reason I never saw it is that there is a small plastic drain from the bottom of the "firebox" which is called the condensate drain and is there to drain any condensation which drops off the boiler. This is tee'd into the washing machine drain and therefore I never ever saw it. Will know next time though!!
Crap that such a major component fails after such a short time.However, fortunate it cost me eff-all.
Cheers
Phil
Just had the heat exchanger on my Ariston go after 31/2 years. Luckily under 5 year warranty. Started as a small leak dropping the pressure. Never suspected the boiler as I could see no leaks. Thought it was a small pipework leak. Pumped in the usual leak sealer compounds. At first it did solve it, then it returned with a passion. At this point still thought it would be a pipework problem. However, before ripping the floors up, got the warranty people out to check the boiler under threat of "A small charge" if nothing was found to be wrong with the boiler.
He arrived next day. At this point the pressure was all gone in a couple of hours so had to keep my eye on it. And this was during the recent cold spell.
He took the front off the "firebox" (for want of a better term)Then he pumped the pressure up to about 2 Bar using the filling loop, and the leak was plain to see. The reason I never saw it is that there is a small plastic drain from the bottom of the "firebox" which is called the condensate drain and is there to drain any condensation which drops off the boiler. This is tee'd into the washing machine drain and therefore I never ever saw it. Will know next time though!!
Crap that such a major component fails after such a short time.However, fortunate it cost me eff-all.
Cheers
Phil
Our worcester bosch is a disaster area we have had the engineer out who fitted it so many times eventually he admitted he didn't know what was wrong with it. So we called out worcester bosch themselves who fixed it only for the same problem to re-occur 6 months later. Incidentally the problem is that the boiler seems to overheat blow out steam and turn itself off usually when I am in the shower.
We have just had more work done to put in a water filtration system as it was suggested that the hardness of the water in our area was killing the boiler, whether this will provide a long term solution no-one knows, all I know is that the previous boiler lasted 20 years with no problems.
We have just had more work done to put in a water filtration system as it was suggested that the hardness of the water in our area was killing the boiler, whether this will provide a long term solution no-one knows, all I know is that the previous boiler lasted 20 years with no problems.
moles said:
What makes have you had fitted in the past?. In general you get what you pay for and Vaillant are the best followed by worcester. Trade price on a Vaillant is between £950-1200 but you can buy a crap one (Ravenheat/Biasi) from B&Q for £400 if you want to throw it away every 2-3 years?.
Our lovely builder put in a Biasi when he built the house back in 2001.It has worked very well without problem up until last October, when it needed a new heat exchanger for the hot water side of the system. I am about to get it serviced again and at the same time it looks like it will need a new switch as it won't stay in the constant position.
Just replaced a Gloworm that was fitted in our house when new in 1991.....
There was nothing wrong with it really, but we were having a large extension built at the back that required fairly major plumbing work, so we thought in for a penny, in for a pound, so we now have a large Worcester Bosch combi which has been fine...(so far)....
There was nothing wrong with it really, but we were having a large extension built at the back that required fairly major plumbing work, so we thought in for a penny, in for a pound, so we now have a large Worcester Bosch combi which has been fine...(so far)....
My old Potterton is 33 years old and still does the job, over the years it's had 2 or 3 gas control valves at £70 each and a few thermocouples. It can't be very efficient compared with modern stuff but I suspect what I pay extra in gas bills I save in new boilers so although I am tempted to replace it, every time I read one of these threads I decide I'll not bother until it dies although I expect I'll go first.
Ravell said:
I wonder how difficult it would be to make your own indestructable boiler... 
What I mean is making the heat exchanger from high grade materials, tig welded together rather than sloppy soldering or whatever they do to them, gas fittings that would do for a gas works, mechatronics run from an old but rugged 486dx pc that won't die with software running on DOS, etc.
It's shameful really isn't it? I don't know anyone who asn't has problems with their boiler, yet we all put up with it. We don't seem to accept such shoddy products with anything else, with the possible exception of MS Windows.
My mother has a Robin Hood Super Senior. It pre dates her mother considerably. Best guess is that it was fitted to the house in the early 20th, possibly late 19th century. It has been converted from coal to coke to oil pressure jet burners in that time. I cant believe its as efficient as a condensing unit, but its serviced regularly, and being sited below ground level means it provides underfloor heating to several ground level rooms. Its a massive, Victorian thing constructed from huge slabs of cast steel and is still in good order.What I mean is making the heat exchanger from high grade materials, tig welded together rather than sloppy soldering or whatever they do to them, gas fittings that would do for a gas works, mechatronics run from an old but rugged 486dx pc that won't die with software running on DOS, etc.
It's shameful really isn't it? I don't know anyone who asn't has problems with their boiler, yet we all put up with it. We don't seem to accept such shoddy products with anything else, with the possible exception of MS Windows.
Neighbour is planning a new kitchen and boiler soon. His boiler is the same as mine - a 20-year old Ideal Elan. Apparently it's only 75% efficient and new ones are 92%, so he asked his plumber/gas chap to quote for a new sexy one. The advice was 'Yours works, leave it, new ones keep going wrong'.
Ferg said:
Targarama said:
We have the British Gas Homecare cover, and they do an annual inspection.
If it was my boiler I'd want an annual service.We have a Worcester Bosch combi, it's been fine for the past 10 years or so, this year it needed a new fan, replaced FOC under the BG service. The boiler went tits-up on New Year's ee, it was fixed by 4:00PM on the 2nd. Thye weould have come out on New Year's day, but as we didn't have any babies or old codgers, and we had alternative heatin (log burner), they asked us to wait 24 hours.
tamore said:
10 Pence Short said:
You should be able to get a 5 year warranty on decent Worcester Bosch boilers, too.
we just got this. boiler is a massive improvement on the one which died in the middle of the cold snap.The 'extended' offers suggest they will ensure coverage of the product (parts and labour) for 10 years, maybe more, but wuith costs and terms and conditions attached. Nice to have but no more than a cost spreader unless the thing is so hopeless it would have cost a fortune to fix. Now the cost saving may be a net cost to the manufacturer or it may be a source of revenue if the get the numbers and life expectancy right. However if they are right on the calculations for the scheme there is self evident financial win and it does not overcome the problem of the breakdown on a Friday night of a cold weekend in March. Just means you get service you have already paid for OR at least it costs someone else money, in theory. Give me a 2 hour response emergency call out 27/7 for a similar cost of contract and that would be more interesting. Better than 1 to 3 days anyway. But really only useful if the thing is unreliable anyway.
I would prefer reliability no matter what one throws at it.
Which brings me to TimJMS' mother's Victorian edifice. Wonderful. They knew how to make something last back them. (If you need a huge Mahogany style fireplace and cast iron inset to go with the burner give me a shout, I have one that needs a home.)
Going back further he Romans knew a thing or two about underfloor heating. I wonder how ther running costs would compare with today?
I think the advice provided to Simpo's neighbour tells most of the nmodern end of the story.
Roman stuff could last a could of millenia, Victorian stuff a couple of hundred years (presumably). 50s and 60s designs might last 30 or 40years.
Modern stuff apparently cuts 'emissions' but not by enough to justify ever shorter life spans and probably not enough to cover the cost of manufacture, distribution, installation and service. My mother's house had a Potterton combi of early 80's vintage as I recall and whilst it eventually, after years of nursing by Potterton, seemed to work well enough it only worked for a single person in a small 3 bed detached. Once you knew how to make it give you what you wanted (there was an art to showering) it was just about adequate a fairly reliable. She made a mistake doing away with the hot water tank though. That said it was till working when I sold the house and I doubt nost of the more recent designs would be at the same age.
Thus my question. Buy quality and expect reliability or buy cheap and expect to change it frequently on a pre-planned 'prior to breakdown' or warranty expiry basis?
Much the same as a decision about buying a new car I guess if it's one you might consider keeping for a few years.
Once again, thanks for all the replies people. Most interesting and enlightening.
My tame advisor is suggesting Worcester or Baxi, but with a preference for Worcester based on systems he has installed. They are not full proof from problems but seem to offer him a lower failure rate than the others. (Although of course for an individual installation that proves nothing whatsoever.) The feedback here seems, broadly, to confirm his observations.
That's comforting.
Grant
jagracer said:
My old Potterton is 33 years old and still does the job, over the years it's had 2 or 3 gas control valves at £70 each and a few thermocouples. It can't be very efficient compared with modern stuff but I suspect what I pay extra in gas bills I save in new boilers so although I am tempted to replace it, every time I read one of these threads I decide I'll not bother until it dies although I expect I'll go first.
Exactly, Jagracer, that's why I wrote this:motco said:
My 1971 Potterton C40/12 works fine. Okay it's inefficient but it's right next to me as I type and there's no need for a radiator in this room because the 'heat loss' makes the room warm enough without it. If I replaced it with a new efficient boiler the payback time would exceed the life of both the boiler and me!
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