Help me build an aluminium racing toboggan....
Discussion
Du1point8 said:
maser_spyder said:
Du1point8 said:
Dont suppose you would mind putting up some design plans and what materials where used for the toboggans (all 3) as I would like to make one or 2 of them in Finland over next summer ready for next winter there... dont have the time this winter due to a trip to LapLand to sort them out.
Or are you going to turn this into your own business idea?
They're all a little different in terms of materials, but if you let me know which one you like, I'm happy to tell you what went in to it.Or are you going to turn this into your own business idea?
Mk1 has 3/4" 10SWG tube for most of the structural, and 1" box for the seat, although tube would have been better if I'd had the pipe bender at the time.
Mk1 uses 1 1/2" x 1/4" thick tube for the outer hinge, and the centre is 1" 14SWG tube (light and strong enough).
Mk3 is made of offcuts, so not using the most ideal parts, but rather bits left over.
Uprights made of the offcuts from the runners, crossmembers made with offcuts of the larger outer hinge from the Mk1, although 1" 10SWG might have been lighter and easier to bend in a bit in the back to make it more comfortable.
Side parts are 3/4" 10SWG tube, which could possibly be made slightly smaller.
If you stick to 14 or 10SWG materials, it will be plenty strong enough. I did try some 16SWG, but it's just not thick enough to give any real strength. 1/4" thick is very heavy, so use anything this size sparingly (like the hinges, which could have been made smaller).
Actually, they're probably all massively over-engineered and over-specced, and could be made lighter and more cheaply with thinner materials. But given the choice of making them strong, or light, I went with strong. I'll have no tools to do repairs once I get to Austria!
In any case, it's more fun to experiment, post your results!
Have been finishing, painting, applying decals, and fitting PE strips to the Mk2 and 3 this week, it's hectic with work, so not a huge amount has been done unfortunately.
The Mk4 will be a variation on the Mk3, but with slightly better materials (and a bend in the back crossmember to make it more comfortable). I have the runners bent, just need to do the last of the fabricating, which should take a couple of evenings at most.
Mk5 is going to be totally different, and may need its own thread entirely.
Hmm.
Mk1 Seat mould didn't go too well, I think I didn't use enough release agent, or used the wrong stuff, as a log of the plug got stuck in the new mould.
Still, live and learn!
I've now got quite a lot of work to do in salvaging the mould, as I had to destroy the plug getting it out. Perhaps a composite seat wasn't such a great idea after all.
Not posting pics of this bit, it's ruddy embarrassing! Just see the final product (here's one I made earlier style).
Mk1 Seat mould didn't go too well, I think I didn't use enough release agent, or used the wrong stuff, as a log of the plug got stuck in the new mould.
Still, live and learn!
I've now got quite a lot of work to do in salvaging the mould, as I had to destroy the plug getting it out. Perhaps a composite seat wasn't such a great idea after all.
Not posting pics of this bit, it's ruddy embarrassing! Just see the final product (here's one I made earlier style).
freecar said:
maser_spyder said:
Hmm.
Mk1 Seat mould didn't go too well, I think I didn't use enough release agent, or used the wrong stuff, as a log of the plug got stuck in the new mould.
Still, live and learn!
I've now got quite a lot of work to do in salvaging the mould, as I had to destroy the plug getting it out. Perhaps a composite seat wasn't such a great idea after all.
Not posting pics of this bit, it's ruddy embarrassing! Just see the final product (here's one I made earlier style).
From what I've heard with release agents, is the more the better! The heat of the reaction can destabilise a thin layer maybe!?Mk1 Seat mould didn't go too well, I think I didn't use enough release agent, or used the wrong stuff, as a log of the plug got stuck in the new mould.
Still, live and learn!
I've now got quite a lot of work to do in salvaging the mould, as I had to destroy the plug getting it out. Perhaps a composite seat wasn't such a great idea after all.
Not posting pics of this bit, it's ruddy embarrassing! Just see the final product (here's one I made earlier style).
Wish I'd known this before, the can just said spray on, wait, then go for it. So I did.
Never mind, it'll just take a lot longer to prepare the mould, which is time I don't have right now! Mk3 is nearly finished though, so I've got at least one I'll be able to take with me.
Whitean3 said:
Great thread, I'm loving the development!
There's a reasonable toboggan run in Maria Alm (not so far from Kitzbuhel) in case you weren't aware; open for night tobogganning (on tuesdays I think). There is a restaurant at the top of it where you can eat drink and be merry, then jump on the toboggan and go back down the hill. Usually you get pulled up the hill behind a tractor, with a load of other sledges. Was good fun when we did it, but there was a bit of a flat section about 3/4 the way down...
Anyway, might be worth checking it out.
keep up the excellent work!
That's brilliant, cheers.There's a reasonable toboggan run in Maria Alm (not so far from Kitzbuhel) in case you weren't aware; open for night tobogganning (on tuesdays I think). There is a restaurant at the top of it where you can eat drink and be merry, then jump on the toboggan and go back down the hill. Usually you get pulled up the hill behind a tractor, with a load of other sledges. Was good fun when we did it, but there was a bit of a flat section about 3/4 the way down...
Anyway, might be worth checking it out.
keep up the excellent work!
We did Gaisberg (Kirchberg), Soll and Going last year, and no doubt we'll be seeking more on the day we arrive.
Only problem is, I've no idea what the other punters will make of our home-made efforts, I would guess they'll just mark us down as eccentric Brits!
chrisga said:
Epic thread Maser - congrats! Your sledges look ace. I'd buy one, and I already have this:
Just one thing, the Porsche that I have folds up almost flat and comes in a nice shiny carry case which means taking it to the mountains isnt such an issue. Are you guys driving or flying out to Kitzbuhel? Will you be ok taking it on the plane weight and size wise if flying?
Might be something worht thinking about for mk vi...
Excellent, ta!Just one thing, the Porsche that I have folds up almost flat and comes in a nice shiny carry case which means taking it to the mountains isnt such an issue. Are you guys driving or flying out to Kitzbuhel? Will you be ok taking it on the plane weight and size wise if flying?
Might be something worht thinking about for mk vi...
We're driving out in the Landcruiser, with the very back seats taken out for more space.
However, two month's worth of kit, my three pairs of skis, Mrs Maser's skis, our 'loan' skis (for visitors), boots, marmite, etc. Means it'll be a bit of a squeeze...
I have roof bars with skis racks, but I really didn't want to use them on the long journey, makes a whopping difference to fuel economy.
Still, I've just had my truck back from the garage today, two new cylinder heads, new radiator, new LPG system, and a bucketload of cash later, it's as good as it will ever be. New gas system should improve the economy quite a bit.
If this all goes to plan, and I don't run out of time, there will also be six toboggans coming out with us too (with a maximum of around four people there at once!). Maybe overkill.
Can anybody lend me a trailer?
Long-time, no-updates, so here we are. Work has been hectic, finally managed to get all my last minute parts to get the Mk3 finished.
So here it is, in all its glory, with strap, runners, and some seat support webbing on the back 'cos it digs in to your back a little bit when you lean back all the way. Bit of a design flaw actually, which will be resolved with Mk4 (watch this space).
Overall, I'm really pleased with this one. It's simple, effective, cheap, everything it was set out to be.
Update on the new Mk4 one coming shortly....
Mk1 and 2 still need seats, and I'm running out of time!
So here it is, in all its glory, with strap, runners, and some seat support webbing on the back 'cos it digs in to your back a little bit when you lean back all the way. Bit of a design flaw actually, which will be resolved with Mk4 (watch this space).
Overall, I'm really pleased with this one. It's simple, effective, cheap, everything it was set out to be.
Update on the new Mk4 one coming shortly....
Mk1 and 2 still need seats, and I'm running out of time!
OK, so here it is, the build of the Mk4 version.
The Mk3 was pretty successful, but the rear cross-bar digs in to your back slightly when you lean right back, so the Mk4 has two curves to make it a little more comfortable front and rear.
I also used a lot less material on this model. It's a single length of rectangular section for the two runners, half a length of 1" 10swg that made the uprights and crossmembers, and a length of 3/4" 10swg for the side bars.
I'm making the seat tonight of Cordura, will fit that and the runners, and it's done.
I'm not going to paint this one, partly because I don't have time, and partly because my welding is OK enough to not really need it now! I might just give it a brush up and polish, it should look OK as it is.
You can see the evolution from the Mk3, it's very similar, but easier and quicker to make. Rather than weld plates on the front and rear of the runners, I just built up weld to the front, and will leave the backs open to drain swarf/water. It's not like it'll rust!
So, runners were already bent and ready, my mate helped me with that a couple of weeks ago, so this is a basic, time-lapse build video, that unfortunately cut off the last little bit of the build. Gives you an idea though!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S37r86cxkvc
Which produced;
The Mk5 that's in the thought process now is a bit of an animal to design and build, but should be excellent to use, very nimble and quick on the corners. Watch this space, once again!
The Mk3 was pretty successful, but the rear cross-bar digs in to your back slightly when you lean right back, so the Mk4 has two curves to make it a little more comfortable front and rear.
I also used a lot less material on this model. It's a single length of rectangular section for the two runners, half a length of 1" 10swg that made the uprights and crossmembers, and a length of 3/4" 10swg for the side bars.
I'm making the seat tonight of Cordura, will fit that and the runners, and it's done.
I'm not going to paint this one, partly because I don't have time, and partly because my welding is OK enough to not really need it now! I might just give it a brush up and polish, it should look OK as it is.
You can see the evolution from the Mk3, it's very similar, but easier and quicker to make. Rather than weld plates on the front and rear of the runners, I just built up weld to the front, and will leave the backs open to drain swarf/water. It's not like it'll rust!
So, runners were already bent and ready, my mate helped me with that a couple of weeks ago, so this is a basic, time-lapse build video, that unfortunately cut off the last little bit of the build. Gives you an idea though!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S37r86cxkvc
Which produced;
The Mk5 that's in the thought process now is a bit of an animal to design and build, but should be excellent to use, very nimble and quick on the corners. Watch this space, once again!
Tallbut Buxomly said:
RM have you considered a lean turn option? Whereby if you lean one ski goes flat and the opposite digs in more like with normal ski's or both skis dig in more by changing angle slightly more?
Otherwise awesome build thread.
Right, back from Oz and back in the game.Otherwise awesome build thread.
I have 10 days to build and fit seats to mk1 and 2, and fit the runners and polish on pretty much all of them before heading out to the alps.
The mk5 version is exacty what you suggested here, similar principle to a skateboard (but with both king pins facing the same direction rather than opposites). It's likely to be a right bugger to design and build, hence leaving it until last!
Once they're all runnerred, painted and ready to go I want to get some decent pics, before we ruin them, so will post these as the 'final' product.
Pics of mk5 coming soon!
hwbd said:
Hi have just read full thread. Very impressive build especially impressed with the speed at which you picked up alu welding.
I have been wanting to build a fast toboggan myself for a quite a while and I reckon this thread has pushed me over the edge.
With my own build I am quite concerned about centre of gravity. What kind of height are the seats from the ground on your toboggans?
Welcome to PH!I have been wanting to build a fast toboggan myself for a quite a while and I reckon this thread has pushed me over the edge.
With my own build I am quite concerned about centre of gravity. What kind of height are the seats from the ground on your toboggans?
These were built for use on public toboggan routes in Austria, which can sometimes be a little bumpy! Hence the seat being at around 18 - 20cm from the ground. You can go lower (like a luge), but you'd need quite a flat surface to use it on, and I would recommend a solid seat rather than canvas if you went much lower than this, so you wouldn't injure yourself going over big bumps.
Just putting the final touches to mine, I'll post some 'final' pics before we head of to the alps on saturday and ruin them!
Tested last night at Kirchberg!
It was really a shakedown evening, to get an idea what needs fettling, and a feel for the different designs.
Oddly, the best one out of the box is the simple, Mk4 silver one. It's comfortable, turns perfectly, and is very, very fast.
The suspension on the black one works excellently, but the high centre of gravity when you sit on it means it's quite twitchy, and takes a bit of getting used to. A new, lower seat would improve it!
The red one, my absolute favourite of them all, is too stiff to turn well, so although being very fast, corners like a cow.... Softer springs would almost definitely help.
I have some video footage, but it was dark, and the helmet camera is a bit shakey to get a good idea of what it's really like.
There are plans to go in the daytime in the next couple of days, so I'll do a proper update with pics, etc.
No broken bones, no bruises, and all good fun, so it's a highly recommended pursuit!
Well, winter is coming to a close, and I'll be heading home next week.
I never did get around to updating the thread with the 'finished' articles, so here we go.
The Mk5 was ridiculously adventurous, and to be honest, I ran out to time to do it properly, although it was finished enough to have a play with.
The whole idea was to base it on a 'skateboard' type design, with angled king-pins creating a turning angle movement. The only difference being where skateboard wheels turn in opposite directions, these would turn the same. Using carving ski shaped runners would create the angle required to make a speedy turn.
Started by cutting out the 'ski' shaped runners (based on Head WC Slalom race skis!).
Took ages!
Then welding on the angle brackets to the skis. Went for a simple 45 degree angle to save any confusion of the maths involved!
Then simply bent a tube to 45 degrees, drilled some holes, and fitted it with stainless bolts. You can see the idea of the 'turn' already.
And here's where I ran out of time/pictures, but I'll take some of the 'nearly finished', so you can see the idea!
More to follow on this one. Next post - in use!
I never did get around to updating the thread with the 'finished' articles, so here we go.
The Mk5 was ridiculously adventurous, and to be honest, I ran out to time to do it properly, although it was finished enough to have a play with.
The whole idea was to base it on a 'skateboard' type design, with angled king-pins creating a turning angle movement. The only difference being where skateboard wheels turn in opposite directions, these would turn the same. Using carving ski shaped runners would create the angle required to make a speedy turn.
Started by cutting out the 'ski' shaped runners (based on Head WC Slalom race skis!).
Took ages!
Then welding on the angle brackets to the skis. Went for a simple 45 degree angle to save any confusion of the maths involved!
Then simply bent a tube to 45 degrees, drilled some holes, and fitted it with stainless bolts. You can see the idea of the 'turn' already.
And here's where I ran out of time/pictures, but I'll take some of the 'nearly finished', so you can see the idea!
More to follow on this one. Next post - in use!
So, leaving the assembly stuff aside, we got some piccys of the real action.
These are taken on an afternoon out tobogganing at Going, near Sheffau.
First, you have to get the chairlift up. Most people have hired toboggans, which are the old fashioned, wooden type. There are hooks on the side of the chairs, the lift chappy puts them on for you, and the guy at the top takes them off.
We were interested to see what the lift guy would make of our home-made concoctions....
The diamonds in the rough....
We stopped for a cheeky hot chocolate with rum (highly recommended), and took the opportunity to get some 'publicity' shots.
I'm standing, matey who helped me build the Mk3 and also his own, is 'modelling'.
Mrs Maser doing her bit for publicity!
The Mk3, Mk4 and Mk2 (Mk1 was left out for this run).
Going involves a short walk before the start of the course....
Mrs Maser showing us how it's done!
The Mk4 after a damned good thrashing. Perfect. Just perfect.
And lastly, I have to report the sad demise of the Mk1 Toboggoff. It had an excellent innings, but the seriously bumpy rodel route at Soll got the better of it....
There were bumps about knee-deep, so flying in to them at 20-30 mph meant coming out the other side was seriously bumpy. Great fun, but it turns out the bottom supports were at slightly the wrong angle, and the tube not quite strong enough. The bottom section gently collapsed, causing the runners to go well out of kilter.
It'll be rebuilt when I get home, with the runners slightly further apart to improve handling, and using larger tubing, with a smaller footprint on the runners for extra strength.
On the plus side, the suspension part of it worked absolutely perfectly!
I have some more pics on another camera somewhere, and will attempt to get some more video footage before the snow finally disappears for the year. Earlier footage was either in the dark, or was by a seriously wobbly helmet cam!
We did a GPS logged run at Gaisberg (in Kirchberg), that logged a top speed of just over 36mph. That was on the Mk4, in my opinion, the very best of the lot.
These are taken on an afternoon out tobogganing at Going, near Sheffau.
First, you have to get the chairlift up. Most people have hired toboggans, which are the old fashioned, wooden type. There are hooks on the side of the chairs, the lift chappy puts them on for you, and the guy at the top takes them off.
We were interested to see what the lift guy would make of our home-made concoctions....
The diamonds in the rough....
We stopped for a cheeky hot chocolate with rum (highly recommended), and took the opportunity to get some 'publicity' shots.
I'm standing, matey who helped me build the Mk3 and also his own, is 'modelling'.
Mrs Maser doing her bit for publicity!
The Mk3, Mk4 and Mk2 (Mk1 was left out for this run).
Going involves a short walk before the start of the course....
Mrs Maser showing us how it's done!
The Mk4 after a damned good thrashing. Perfect. Just perfect.
And lastly, I have to report the sad demise of the Mk1 Toboggoff. It had an excellent innings, but the seriously bumpy rodel route at Soll got the better of it....
There were bumps about knee-deep, so flying in to them at 20-30 mph meant coming out the other side was seriously bumpy. Great fun, but it turns out the bottom supports were at slightly the wrong angle, and the tube not quite strong enough. The bottom section gently collapsed, causing the runners to go well out of kilter.
It'll be rebuilt when I get home, with the runners slightly further apart to improve handling, and using larger tubing, with a smaller footprint on the runners for extra strength.
On the plus side, the suspension part of it worked absolutely perfectly!
I have some more pics on another camera somewhere, and will attempt to get some more video footage before the snow finally disappears for the year. Earlier footage was either in the dark, or was by a seriously wobbly helmet cam!
We did a GPS logged run at Gaisberg (in Kirchberg), that logged a top speed of just over 36mph. That was on the Mk4, in my opinion, the very best of the lot.
tr7v8 said:
That looks great, how long is the run either in feet or seconds?
They're mostly around 4-6km or thereabouts.We did go and do the longest toboggan run in the world though, at Wildkogel, which is 14km top to bottom.
Normally takes 10-20 minutes to get down the normal length courses.
No 'elf & safety here!
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