Badly installed new boiler - advice please
Discussion
About 3 weeks ago our cantral heating packed up - the old boiler had gone up in smoke (yes literally!)
So I was recommended a plumber by a work colleague - said plumber duly showed up and verbally quoted £1400 to replace with an Ideal which has a 5 year warranty. Didn't manage to get anyone else to come and look so accepted this and 3 very pleasant guys arrived and installed the boiler just before Christamas. I had also asked them to replace the 3-way valve which has been playing up for years, and the tank thermostat because the old one was not controlling the water temperature.
On leaving the property, they commented that the wiring was a bit funny and that there was no live feed to the boiler but it seemed OK.
We now have heating which works fine but still no control over the water temperature. So I called the guy and he's now quoting £150 for 4-5 hours work to re-wire our central heating system. When I queried this price he pointed out that this will include all new pieces of wire. He would also like this and the original £1400 in cash when he calls.
Somewhat frustrated with this and having a friend round for a quiet drink last night we spent 4 hours tracing all the wiring, drawing it all out, and googling how these things should work. We found that there was indeed no live feed to the boiler, that the earth wiring was disconnected in 2 places, and that the tank thermostat had all 3 wires in the wrong place. The boiler is taking its permanent live from the wire that demands hot water (which is permanently live whilst the heating is on), so when hot water is switched off at the timer the boiler has its power cut rather than being told to shut itself off.
The question is what to do next?
1. Finish the job myself on Saturday morning, given that I seem to be better at understanding the wiring than the plumber
2. Insist that the plumber come back and make good, because it that was my work I'd be embarrassed to leave it in that state, and if I change the wiring myself then I can't expect him to rectify any subsequent faults
3. Pay the plumber to come back because if I so much as move a wire I'll disappear in a fireball, and I shouldn't expect it to work after the first visit anyway
4. Report this bad workmanship to the gas-safe register so the guy can lose his licence and livelihood (does gas-safe cover the wiring?)
To be fair the wiring was probably wrong to start with, but surely they should have picked this up & sorted it out during the installation; also there was a blizzard outside by the time they left so later stages of the job were probably rushed in an effort to leave while they still could.
So I was recommended a plumber by a work colleague - said plumber duly showed up and verbally quoted £1400 to replace with an Ideal which has a 5 year warranty. Didn't manage to get anyone else to come and look so accepted this and 3 very pleasant guys arrived and installed the boiler just before Christamas. I had also asked them to replace the 3-way valve which has been playing up for years, and the tank thermostat because the old one was not controlling the water temperature.
On leaving the property, they commented that the wiring was a bit funny and that there was no live feed to the boiler but it seemed OK.
We now have heating which works fine but still no control over the water temperature. So I called the guy and he's now quoting £150 for 4-5 hours work to re-wire our central heating system. When I queried this price he pointed out that this will include all new pieces of wire. He would also like this and the original £1400 in cash when he calls.
Somewhat frustrated with this and having a friend round for a quiet drink last night we spent 4 hours tracing all the wiring, drawing it all out, and googling how these things should work. We found that there was indeed no live feed to the boiler, that the earth wiring was disconnected in 2 places, and that the tank thermostat had all 3 wires in the wrong place. The boiler is taking its permanent live from the wire that demands hot water (which is permanently live whilst the heating is on), so when hot water is switched off at the timer the boiler has its power cut rather than being told to shut itself off.
The question is what to do next?
1. Finish the job myself on Saturday morning, given that I seem to be better at understanding the wiring than the plumber
2. Insist that the plumber come back and make good, because it that was my work I'd be embarrassed to leave it in that state, and if I change the wiring myself then I can't expect him to rectify any subsequent faults
3. Pay the plumber to come back because if I so much as move a wire I'll disappear in a fireball, and I shouldn't expect it to work after the first visit anyway
4. Report this bad workmanship to the gas-safe register so the guy can lose his licence and livelihood (does gas-safe cover the wiring?)
To be fair the wiring was probably wrong to start with, but surely they should have picked this up & sorted it out during the installation; also there was a blizzard outside by the time they left so later stages of the job were probably rushed in an effort to leave while they still could.
Fair enough. I'm certainly not out to ruin anyone's livelihood.
The original wiring was wrong but the plumber installed a boiler and tank thermostat to this incorrect wiring thus making it a bit of a grey area IMO - especially with not connecting a permanent live to the boiler. However having got this far I'm inclined to finish the job myself so that I know it's right.
The 4 hours I spent included finding out how central heating systems work and how it's all meant to be connected, also regular interruptions by children, present opening and cake eating. I would expect any competent professional to rewire 5 relatively simple devices to each other, 4 of them in the same cupboard, in about an hour - especially if they don't waste time looking at how it's currently wired. I'm expecting to be done in an hour or two tonight or tomorrow morning now that I know how it should work.
As for the cash I've told him to give me a bill and I'll give him a cheque as I'm not comfortable having that much cash in the house.
The original wiring was wrong but the plumber installed a boiler and tank thermostat to this incorrect wiring thus making it a bit of a grey area IMO - especially with not connecting a permanent live to the boiler. However having got this far I'm inclined to finish the job myself so that I know it's right.
The 4 hours I spent included finding out how central heating systems work and how it's all meant to be connected, also regular interruptions by children, present opening and cake eating. I would expect any competent professional to rewire 5 relatively simple devices to each other, 4 of them in the same cupboard, in about an hour - especially if they don't waste time looking at how it's currently wired. I'm expecting to be done in an hour or two tonight or tomorrow morning now that I know how it should work.
As for the cash I've told him to give me a bill and I'll give him a cheque as I'm not comfortable having that much cash in the house.
I have now consulted the installation manual for the boiler which clearly states that the warranty will be invalidated if there is no permanent live connected to the boiler, so it is not correctly commisioned. He also can't have tested earth continuity (as required in the commissioning instructions) because the earth wire had been cut near the connecting block, and was also astray further up the line.
Have had one conversation with the plumber on this basis, which went badly, but he's now called back apologetically and arranged to come and investigate on Monday morning. I'll most likely get it sorted before then anyway now that I've got my head round it, but if not he's sounding much more amicable and I will be happy to pay to resolve problems which are above and beyond correctly installing the boiler & cylinder thermostat.
Have had one conversation with the plumber on this basis, which went badly, but he's now called back apologetically and arranged to come and investigate on Monday morning. I'll most likely get it sorted before then anyway now that I've got my head round it, but if not he's sounding much more amicable and I will be happy to pay to resolve problems which are above and beyond correctly installing the boiler & cylinder thermostat.
Well the conclusion is that I can't stand knowing the answer and waiting 3 days for it to be implemented (especially when the plumber didn't exactly inspire confidence with his knowledge & attitude). So I stripped out all the existing connections and about half the wiring - includng some which had been reused from the old boiler and was rather brittle at the boiler end.
Rewired from scratch using smart new junction box and utilising cable clamps across the board (which had also been ignored the previous time around), added live feed to boiler, corrected wiring to tank stat where all 3 connections had been wrong. Rechecked all connections. Fired up system one step at a time - now works perfectly. And yes the new boiler has a pump over-run - it runs through a boot-up cycle including the CH pump and some internal motors and then settles out after about 5 minutes
Total time this evening 2.75 hours, working from the wiring diagram in the boiler instruction manual. Would probably halve this time if I did it for a living.
3 questions remain:
1. Have I broken the law by wiring in my own boiler? Note I didn't touch the gas or water connections.
2. Is the boiler likely to have been damaged by running for 2 weeks without the over-run? Most of the time the boiler didn't actually shut off as the tank stat was corrected entirely wrongly therefore heating was demanded either 18 or 24 hours daily.
3. If I had been a arse about this and called the gas-safe people instead of the plumber, would this have caused him problems?
The answer to 3. interests me because as yet I haven't seen a written quote or invoice but I'm inclined to ask for a slice off the bill in view of the poor installation and his poor understanding of the system, although I haven't formulated any actual plan in this regard.
The answer to 2. is important because I don't want to end up with a failed boiler in a couple of years and have Ideal inspect it and declare that it has been installed incorrectly at some stage thereby invalidating the warranty. In fact if this is moderately likely then can I ask for an inspection now?
Rewired from scratch using smart new junction box and utilising cable clamps across the board (which had also been ignored the previous time around), added live feed to boiler, corrected wiring to tank stat where all 3 connections had been wrong. Rechecked all connections. Fired up system one step at a time - now works perfectly. And yes the new boiler has a pump over-run - it runs through a boot-up cycle including the CH pump and some internal motors and then settles out after about 5 minutes
Total time this evening 2.75 hours, working from the wiring diagram in the boiler instruction manual. Would probably halve this time if I did it for a living.
3 questions remain:
1. Have I broken the law by wiring in my own boiler? Note I didn't touch the gas or water connections.
2. Is the boiler likely to have been damaged by running for 2 weeks without the over-run? Most of the time the boiler didn't actually shut off as the tank stat was corrected entirely wrongly therefore heating was demanded either 18 or 24 hours daily.
3. If I had been a arse about this and called the gas-safe people instead of the plumber, would this have caused him problems?
The answer to 3. interests me because as yet I haven't seen a written quote or invoice but I'm inclined to ask for a slice off the bill in view of the poor installation and his poor understanding of the system, although I haven't formulated any actual plan in this regard.
The answer to 2. is important because I don't want to end up with a failed boiler in a couple of years and have Ideal inspect it and declare that it has been installed incorrectly at some stage thereby invalidating the warranty. In fact if this is moderately likely then can I ask for an inspection now?
Simpo Two said:
nomisesor said:
As for the cash I've told him to give me a bill and I'll give him a cheque as I'm not comfortable having that much cash in the house.
That despatches much of your negotiating power. If he's got to pay tax on it, that's +20% for starters.Edited by Simpo Two on Friday 31st December 21:53
Globs said:
As for legality - are you happy it is competently wired?
Remember the law is an ass, but the laws of physics are The Law, and are what will affect you.
I am now. I'd probably have re-checked any further work anyway after the experience so far.Remember the law is an ass, but the laws of physics are The Law, and are what will affect you.
I also now have a schematic of how the system is wired, including wire colours etc, which will aid any future fault-finding and avoid paying anyone else to do it.
Simpo Two said:
oldcynic said:
There was no indication whatsoever that he wanted cash when he quoted for the installation.
Well you wouldn't expect there to be would you!Simpo Two said:
oldcynic said:
I may have sought an alternative company if he'd mentioned it before commencing work.
Ah, you'd rather pay through the nose, OK. Sometimes tax is not the only reason people want to avoid a paper trail, and at the very least I expect to make an informed choice
Festive Ferg said:
A couple of weeks without a pump over-run is unlikely to have harmed it. It's interesting to note, though, that over the years I've probably attended maybe 50 installs where the old boiler has been replaced with a new one and the permanent live requirement has been ignored... 
Thanks for that. It's good to know that it's not unlikely to die an early death as a result.I think the guy needs to go back to school as far as the electricals are concerned. Does he need some kind of certificate for working on the electrical side? The workmanship was shocking - no earth (wire had been cut in one place and not connected in another), no cables clamped in place, brittle flex from the old burnt-out boiler re-used, and the aforementioned tank stat with common, NO and NC all swapped round. Fortunately the gas & water side looks neat so at least he's good at something.
Festive Ferg said:
Have you phase sleeved any cables that are not immediately obviously live??
No, but the whole lot is now in a box labelled "Danger 230V" with numbered terminals and a key to these inside the lid. Begrudged the £7.99 that B&Q charged but it's so much easier to work with now it's laid out right and I'm very unlikely to call anyone out for the electrical side now, so money well spent.So what is phase sleeving?
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