"There is no heaven; it's a fairy story"

[Pesty]

lol. No just that I can't spell for st. I have probably spelt religeon 4 different ways in this thread alone and I still don't know which is the right one but thanks for not correcting me

God why can't I spell?

[AlVal]

andr3w said:

dundarach said:

andr3w said:

We dismiss all kinds of supernatural claims without looking deep into them. Why single out religious supernatural claims.

Because we're currently discussing religion ain’t we....????

Agreed however - but there are lots of investigations into the supernatural too, you are however very right, don't rule anything out without considering all the evidence and information.

I say why single them out because it seems that you have chosen a tiny subset of all supernatural claims and decided that they are true but have rejected all the others. We simply reject all of them including yours.

If I tell you that I can cast spells and turn humans into frogs, I would expect you not to believe me. I wouldn't expect you to say, well, I'll have to go and do all my research into witchcraft and get back to you. You automatically and instinctively reject my claim just as we do with your magical god.

See, you wasted your logic on him. He didn't want to hear reason, just the usual feigning of some sort of purported serious debate, before becoming distracted by something shiny. Its this lack of attentive ability that stops him getting past the fairy tales. X factors probably on.

[Ben3883]

Pesty said:

God why can't I spell?

Because thou art an unbelieving heathen and He has therefore smited thee and thine spellchequer.

[Pesty]

Thank god for that! I thought it was just cos I was thick.

[AlVal]

Ben3883 said:

Because you're an unbelieving heathen and He has therefore smited you.

Smote/smitten
Join the beating cue heathen..

[/troll]

[PoleDriver]

doogz said:

I just have a little question.

This woman never had sex, but got pregnant. Had a baby, who grew up to be a miracle, could walk on water, turn water into wine, cure the ill. Then he was killed , but then came back to life, then ascended to heaven.

You believe this story?

Her husband did, and everyone went along with it!

[elster]

Whatever people say about Religion.

It is a bloody good money maker.

[andr3w]

AlVal said:

andr3w said:

dundarach said:

andr3w said:

We dismiss all kinds of supernatural claims without looking deep into them. Why single out religious supernatural claims.

Because we're currently discussing religion ain’t we....????

Agreed however - but there are lots of investigations into the supernatural too, you are however very right, don't rule anything out without considering all the evidence and information.

I say why single them out because it seems that you have chosen a tiny subset of all supernatural claims and decided that they are true but have rejected all the others. We simply reject all of them including yours.

If I tell you that I can cast spells and turn humans into frogs, I would expect you not to believe me. I wouldn't expect you to say, well, I'll have to go and do all my research into witchcraft and get back to you. You automatically and instinctively reject my claim just as we do with your magical god.

See, you wasted your logic on him. He didn't want to hear reason, just the usual feigning of some sort of purported serious debate, before becoming distracted by something shiny. Its this lack of attentive ability that stops him getting past the fairy tales. X factors probably on.

Agree and have to remind myself of the fact that it's almost futile to use reason and logic to debate someone who has already rejected reason and logic to arrive at their beliefs.

[hesnotthemessiah]

elster said:

Whatever people say about Religion.

It is a bloody good money maker.

And produced some amazing architecture.

I'm afraid I don't believe either.

Moreover, the Dawkin's Posse have themselves become a kind of religion, preaching as they do.

If religion works for you or encourages you to help others, or keeps you on the straight and narrow, or whatever, then fair enough. Just don't knock on my door telling me you have all the answers etc etc.

Where is meant to be Heaven anyhoo?

[dundarach]

andr3w said:

AlVal said:

andr3w said:

dundarach said:

andr3w said:

We dismiss all kinds of supernatural claims without looking deep into them. Why single out religious supernatural claims.

Because we're currently discussing religion ain’t we....????

Agreed however - but there are lots of investigations into the supernatural too, you are however very right, don't rule anything out without considering all the evidence and information.

I say why single them out because it seems that you have chosen a tiny subset of all supernatural claims and decided that they are true but have rejected all the others. We simply reject all of them including yours.

If I tell you that I can cast spells and turn humans into frogs, I would expect you not to believe me. I wouldn't expect you to say, well, I'll have to go and do all my research into witchcraft and get back to you. You automatically and instinctively reject my claim just as we do with your magical god.

See, you wasted your logic on him. He didn't want to hear reason, just the usual feigning of some sort of purported serious debate, before becoming distracted by something shiny. Its this lack of attentive ability that stops him getting past the fairy tales. X factors probably on.

Agree and have to remind myself of the fact that it's almost futile to use reason and logic to debate someone who has already rejected reason and logic to arrive at their beliefs.

You do indeed have powers - the same powers as my wife - YOU CAN TELL WHAT I'M THINKING....

Rather than tell everyone how clever you are, by putting things in my mouth, why not ask?
You're right I would not believe you about the frog, just as I didn't about religeon, I then read and made up my mind.
What reason did I not want to hear, I suggested that indeed research goes into all the supernatural, however we are discussing heaven, so yes it's to do with religeon.
What was your reasoning I missed, that it's your word because you said so...

What interesting in these discussion tonight is that not once I have critised, mocked, accused of being a troll, name called or anything else ANYONE else.

What are you so afraid of, why are you SO desparate to win?

Hey ho, really have to be off now - honest..

But feel free to name call and mock once I'm gone chaps...

[elster]

hesnotthemessiah said:

And produced some amazing architecture.

I'm afraid I don't believe either.

Moreover, the Dawkin's Posse have themselves become a kind of religion, preaching as they do.

If religion works for you or encourages you to help others, or keeps you on the straight and narrow, or whatever, then fair enough. Just don't knock on my door telling me you have all the answers etc etc.

Where is meant to be Heaven anyhoo?

I am fairly blasé about religion, as long as it doesn't interfere with my life, then I am not too bothered on what a persons beliefs are.

By interfere I mean in a bad way, or a preached way.

I am quite happy if people want to be good citizens and call it "gods work". I prefer to call it human charity though.

[Pesty]

dundarach said:

just as I didn't about religeon, I then read and made up my mind.

But did you read them all? have you read the koran and the miqra? if not how can you know they are not better religions? after all we are all born muslims according to some .
Or maybe the Inuits have the real deal or the scientologists.......

[C2james]

SlimRick said:

Wonder why they registered the domain for 2 years?

Domain Name: JUDGEMENTDAY2011.COM
Created on: 05-Aug-10
Expires on: 05-Aug-12

I just showed my mum this and all she said was "well that's were they have let themselves down"

[JonRB]

dundarach said:

Now if you want to have a reasoned argument, with someone who genuining belives in Christianity.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
~~ Steven Roberts

[andr3w]

dundarach said:

andr3w said:

AlVal said:

andr3w said:

dundarach said:

andr3w said:

We dismiss all kinds of supernatural claims without looking deep into them. Why single out religious supernatural claims.

Because we're currently discussing religion ain’t we....????

Agreed however - but there are lots of investigations into the supernatural too, you are however very right, don't rule anything out without considering all the evidence and information.

I say why single them out because it seems that you have chosen a tiny subset of all supernatural claims and decided that they are true but have rejected all the others. We simply reject all of them including yours.

If I tell you that I can cast spells and turn humans into frogs, I would expect you not to believe me. I wouldn't expect you to say, well, I'll have to go and do all my research into witchcraft and get back to you. You automatically and instinctively reject my claim just as we do with your magical god.

See, you wasted your logic on him. He didn't want to hear reason, just the usual feigning of some sort of purported serious debate, before becoming distracted by something shiny. Its this lack of attentive ability that stops him getting past the fairy tales. X factors probably on.

Agree and have to remind myself of the fact that it's almost futile to use reason and logic to debate someone who has already rejected reason and logic to arrive at their beliefs.

You do indeed have powers - the same powers as my wife - YOU CAN TELL WHAT I'M THINKING....

Rather than tell everyone how clever you are, by putting things in my mouth, why not ask?
You're right I would not believe you about the frog, just as I didn't about religeon, I then read and made up my mind.
What reason did I not want to hear, I suggested that indeed research goes into all the supernatural, however we are discussing heaven, so yes it's to do with religeon.
What was your reasoning I missed, that it's your word because you said so...

What interesting in these discussion tonight is that not once I have critised, mocked, accused of being a troll, name called or anything else ANYONE else.

What are you so afraid of, why are you SO desparate to win?

Hey ho, really have to be off now - honest..

But feel free to name call and mock once I'm gone chaps...

Prefer if you responded with some reasoned arguments rather than all the paranoia stuff.

[Hackney]

dundarach said:

Why do I have to prove evidence for - when you can not prove against?

Stephen Hawking has an opinion, people agree with him, others do not.

He has no evidence that heaven does not exist, however, interestingly as a Christian we have a great deal of evidence that Jesus existed.

In addition we have a number of hostile witnesses to the resurrection.

I fully understand that many people do not want to consider these things and that is their right.

It is however my right to believe and not to be made to defend myself to someone who can offer no other evidence to the contrary.

If people want a serious discussion fine, if not no worries!

A neat side step - Hawking has no evidence of X, but I have evidence of Y, therefore Hawking is wrong and I am right (paraphrasing)

As stated there is evidence that a "Jesus" character existed, Hawking may well agree or disagree with this, so you have not disproved his theory. You do not prove or disprove existence of heaven though. Merely change the parameters of the argument.

You state that "It is however my right to believe and not to be made to defend myself to someone who can offer no other evidence to the contrary." Yet you offer no evidence at all. You may or may not be trying to convince me or anyone that your belief is right.


What makes you believe there is a heaven? Where is it? What empirical evidence is there?

However, it is your right to believe whatever you want to believe.

[Mr POD]

Zwoelf said:

In to agree before the Godsquad arrive.

As the 4th "Miracle Child" of a born again couple, now well into their 70's and still dancing in the isles, I was clearly fully indoctrinised and fed the Christian propoganda.

At the age of 13 I decided that I'd make my own decisions and have led a relatively God free existence (apart from getting married in church, and attending the odd funeral), but something still nags at me.

Faith is so erm hard to explain. If you really believe then it must exist, and what if the faithfull are actually right ? How will you know until it's too late ? Surely better to hedge(fund) your bets and see what happens ?

[Pesty]

Mr POD said:

How will you know until it's too late ? Surely better to hedge(fund) your bets and see what happens ?

Pascals wager. very well known argument that is applied to just about everything these days,

[JonRB]

55allgold said:

As for Believers, there's no point arguing with them about the existence of Heaven. It's like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling. Instead, get them to imagine their afterlife in Heaven. It's all bonkers.

Which 'you' is it that goes to Heaven: 'you' as the optimistic young adult you used to be? Or 'you' as the cantankerous middle-aged grump you were when you died? Or 'you' as a senile-demetia-ridden husk of a person?

Are your dead children there? Unformed and immature? Do you meet them? Do you feel loss when you find your loved ones aren't there because Himself decided they were bad? If you die before the love of your life, and later remarry, what happens when you ascend to Heaven and meet her again. Does libido exist in heaven? What does everyone do all day? Is Worship required? Doesn't that non-stop Worship thing wear a bit thin after a few hundred years? Are there thrills to be had? Can you opt out if it's not what you expected? What if the afterlife is not worth living?

Or is that all moot - because your free will disappears upon your ascent to Heaven? Because if it does, you ('you' meaning who you are right now) clearly don't go to Heaven at all. What it is that is 'you' has been thrown away at the Pearly Gates, and only a pale shadow of your true self gets let in.

Doesn't sound like Heaven to me.

Amen to that.

Err, no pun intended.

[andr3w]

Mr POD said:

How will you know until it's too late ? Surely better to hedge(fund) your bets and see what happens ?

1. How do you know which God to hedge your bets with? Which of the 10,000s do you choose? What if you go with Yahweh and then when you die Zeus is standing over you?

2. If God is omniscient then won't he know that you're just pretending to believe just in case?

3. If this God guy is so petty that he requires me to suspend all the powers of reason that he endowed my brain with and believe something with zero evidence then I don't want to spend an eternity with him.