"There is no heaven; it's a fairy story"

[micky g]

I've been trying to ring Hawking all night to ask him about this but i keep getting his bloody answerphone...

[JonRB]

JonRB said:

dundarach said:

Now if you want to have a reasoned argument, with someone who genuining belives in Christianity.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
~~ Steven Roberts

Or, to put it another way, you believe in monotheism not pantheism. Any argument you can give for the non-existence of all other gods but your own, I will apply to yours too.

Corollary: If you can somehow prove the existence of your god, you will probably have proved the existence of a lot of other gods too. Which is kind of an inconvenience for monotheism.

You're pretty much fked really.

Edited by JonRB on Tuesday 17th May 00:09

[andr3w]

JonRB said:

JonRB said:

dundarach said:

Now if you want to have a reasoned argument, with someone who genuining belives in Christianity.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
~~ Steven Roberts

Or, to put it another way, you believe in monotheism not pantheism. Any argument you can give for the non-existence of all other gods but your own, I will apply to yours too.

Indeed, it wasn't like anyone discovered in the 3rd century evidence that showed the Christian god was real and the Greek gods weren't. We simply don't have that data. One day the Christian god will inhabit the same dustbin of history all the other gods are in.

[Mr POD]

andr3w said:

Mr POD said:

How will you know until it's too late ? Surely better to hedge(fund) your bets and see what happens ?

1. How do you know which God to hedge your bets with? Which of the 10,000s do you choose? What if you go with Yahweh and then when you die Zeus is standing over you?

2. If God is omniscient then won't he know that you're just pretending to believe just in case?

3. If this God guy is so petty that he requires me to suspend all the powers of reason that he endowed my brain with and believe something with zero evidence then I don't want to spend an eternity with him.

1) I'm going with the great god A series
2) He's a fairly unreliable god, and I don't expect himto out last me.
3) I feel my god needs some modernisation, but the GOD K has such a poor reputation.

[FaineantFreddy]

[OlberJ]

What if every god ever summised is real?

Gonna be a bit akward really.

[PoleDriver]

Mr POD said:

1) I'm going with the great god A series
2) He's a fairly unreliable god, and I don't expect himto out last me.
3) I feel my god needs some modernisation, but the GOD K has such a poor reputation.

You going straight to HGF hell!

[Ben3883]

AlVal said:

Ben3883 said:

Because you're an unbelieving heathen and He has therefore smited you.

Smote/smitten
Join the beating cue heathen..

[/troll]

Sea my edit, then duck for the parrot lest he woosh too closely

[B3njamin]

I like this Jesus person, from all I've heard about him, he appears to have been a great guy that people could all do with listening to. Having studied various religious texts I'm disappointed with what man says about god, however. At best I can believe the bible was mans best attempt at documenting such a enormous concept without fully being able to hence why it appears flawed - a attempted description back in jesus's times of a television or a jet plane would likely have been equally confusing.

Is there a 'God'? Perhaps but I can only consider the idea as a metaphysical concept rather than as a supreme 'being'... Call 'God' whatever energy caused the big bang and I'm more ready to believe this - then again not so long ago the world was flat so who knows.

[dugt]

dundarach said:

Cock Womble

I think the actual Jesus man certainly existed, forget his divinity for the moment. You have to agree, that sirley the whole Jesus figure wasn't created for entertainment purposes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

Therefore if he did exist, what was he saying and were might I look for evidence of this.

Well for one, he met many of the prophesies from the old testament, now he could have read these and just acted them out, and he did indeed have access to them so yes could have done.

However why would so many follow him, why would the Roman empire be so frightened of him, why would so many follow him, for so long and across the whole planet.

Now yes it could be all in out heads, but if so, never before and never again has one man done so much.

Now the counter argunment is to look at other religions, Muslim, Jewish etc, but rather than contradict Jesus many agree to his existence and some will talk of him being a prophet etc.

Old testament from Jewish Torah or other way around.

So a world wide believe, coming from vary different people, most of which hate each other and yet often agreeing on single god, many listing Jesus in their texts.

Evidence that Turin Shroud had been repaired, blood plasma, anatomical accurate portrayal of a crucifixion, blood stains on the face that match a cloth aged to at least 500 years before the carbon date....

Lots of evidence - even before the faith stuff....

Make your own judgement based on the facts, don't just say balls to it, its a good read in it's own right....

All you have proved is that there was a jewish carpenter about 2000 years ago.
Now prove he is god.

Many people followed Hitler and Bin Laden.
Many people follow(ed) Jesus.
They all seemed to follow with out questioning.

All of modern civilsation is based on using dead dinosaurs in the form of oil and oil based products. Our whole lives would be totaly different if we didnt have dinosaur that died millions of years ago, but they don't get a look in in the bible.

Just a quick question, if judgment day is on 21 may, and the world is being destroyed on 21 october, am i free to do anything I want inbetween those two dates??

[Adam B]

Pesty said:

The comandments are a good set of rules from memory(ist a long time since I read parts of the bible)

What I would say is you don't need a religeon to have good rules. For one I don't like the forced part do right or go to hell. I would rather people act because thats how you should behave.

I 'try' to live by some rules simple ones like treat people like you would like to be treated. I don't need a god to understand, that is a good principle

Pretty much my thinking, although the teachings of yer basic Christianity seems like a pretty good social rule set so if some people need it written down and believe in god in order to follow it i am cool with that.

Generally as long as a religion respects non-believers and other religions and does not see them as lesser I am all good. My limited understanding is that Catholicism, Judaism and extreme interpretations of Christian and Islamic teachings don't.

Fair play to dundarach for debating calmly here.

Any recommends good book on the arguments for and against the existence of Jesus ?

[GilbertGrape]

g3org3y said:

Says Stephen Hawking.

Guardian said:

A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.

In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.

Full article here.

I believe he got that around the wrong way. If there is no heaven, then maybe there isn't a hell. I think it comforts some people if they believe neither exist. Perhaps evolution is the crutch.

[Funk]

dugt said:

You git. I was about to post this. It's so beautifully, simply true.

[Mr Sparkle]

dundarach said:

Now just for one moment - go with me - you're god, standing on a mountain, explaining all this to Moses, a guy by modern standards, not very well travelled or educated in the ways of the universe....

Are you going to try and explain string theory, worm holes, 100 billion galaxies, dark matter, gravity etc etc etc

If I were God, being all powerful I might explain it to every creature when they reached a suitable age - so that they could all avoid hell. But being benevolent I probably wouldn't have created hell to begin with. In fact what the hell is the point of earth, you lot may as well just come on into heaven right now.

This creates a problem - if i'm kinder than God then what kind of monster is God. Why create beings that can feel pain and send them to eternal damnation - it can't be a test since a God already knows the outcome. IMO it is either intense evil or doesn't exist.

[Mr Sparkle]

dundarach said:

I think it's just a bit ignorant to dismiss something, simply because you have no interest - I have no interest in BMW's however to say they're crap would be wrong - I've owned a few as company cars, however have no interest, but fully understand why other people would have....

Don't assume we(non believers) are just dismissing religion, consider that a hypothesis has be proposed to us and that we have been unable to find any evidence in support of that hypothesis, but have been able to find evidence discrediting the proponents(texts, ritualism, Biology (brain functioning etc).) of that hypothesis.

Hence for the non-believers the balance of evidence that has been viewed tips the scales in favour of the God(s?) hypothesis being false, if some evidence were to be brought to light that changes that balance (A second coming would be effective) then many (all?) non-believers would change their minds.

[DJRC]

Two thoughts spring to mind:

1. Given who Hawkings is, Id be far more worried if he suddenly said one day "Ive been chatting to my mate Gabrial and hes said its OK, a chap with wings called Peter will meet me in person at the Pearly Gates."

2. Isnt the technically correct answer "Buggered if I know, Im not dead yet." ?

As far as I can work out there is no evidence there is heaven and there is no evidence there isnt one. So er, carry on as normal then.

[NoNeed]

So in short Stephen Hawking is trying to tell Belinda Carlisle that she is wrong.

[dundarach]

DJRC said:

Two thoughts spring to mind:

1. Given who Hawkings is, Id be far more worried if he suddenly said one day "Ive been chatting to my mate Gabrial and hes said its OK, a chap with wings called Peter will meet me in person at the Pearly Gates."

2. Isnt the technically correct answer "Buggered if I know, Im not dead yet." ?

As far as I can work out there is no evidence there is heaven and there is no evidence there isnt one. So er, carry on as normal then.

Yes I can fully appreciate this....

What I have found most interesting about being the vocal and therefore focus of all the hatred and ridecule - by some and certainly not by all....is that if you look at the two side from lasts nights discussion I have the following observation...which anyone is free to read the posts and make up their own mind....

1. I was not the one who told the other what to think.
2. I was not the one who used immotive words.
3. I asked lots of questions and presented my beliefs open to all.
4. I was given no counter argument other than, you are wrong because I or the internet, say so.
5. I presented several pieces of my beliefs, Jesus, Bible, Shroud and was told, Jesus is make up, Bible is made up, no-one commented on the shroud, despite some clear point to rebuke, other than I was even more foolish to believe in this.

So on this forum we have someone happy with themselves, will to be questionned, wanted to discuss and talk openly about this stuff.

And (in general) a bunch of closed minds who shout and taunt.....

Who is religeous again...?

All there in black and white, go make your own judgement!

[Einion Yrth]

dundarach said:

Yes I can fully appreciate this....

What I have found most interesting about being the vocal and therefore focus of all the hatred and ridecule - by some and certainly not by all....is that if you look at the two side from lasts nights discussion I have the following observation...which anyone is free to read the posts and make up their own mind....

1. I was not the one who told the other what to think.
2. I was not the one who used immotive words.
3. I asked lots of questions and presented my beliefs open to all.
4. I was given no counter argument other than, you are wrong because I or the internet, say so.
5. I presented several pieces of my beliefs, Jesus, Bible, Shroud and was told, Jesus is make up, Bible is made up, no-one commented on the shroud, despite some clear point to rebuke, other than I was even more foolish to believe in this.

So on this forum we have someone happy with themselves, will to be questionned, wanted to discuss and talk openly about this stuff.

And (in general) a bunch of closed minds who shout and taunt.....

Who is religeous again...?

All there in black and white, go make your own judgement!

Problem with that is that as the one making a claim for the existance of something the burden of proof is with you. I have no reason to doubt the scientific examination that declared to Turin shroud to be of post biblical origin. My point stand, that despite the Romans and the Jews of the time being obsessive record keepers I cannot find any comtemporaneous record in secular texts for the existance of the nazarene apart from later insertions by one Josephus, long known know to be an earlier, fraudulent, attempt to get around the lack of contemprary records. Find me those records and we can move on in agreement that the individual Joshuah bar Joseph at least existed. Finally I haven't taunted you, I neither have most of your respondents, stop being so bloody paranoid.

[AlVal]

dundarach said:

Yes I can fully appreciate this....

What I have found most interesting about being the vocal and therefore focus of all the hatred and ridecule - by some and certainly not by all....is that if you look at the two side from lasts nights discussion I have the following observation...which anyone is free to read the posts and make up their own mind....

1. I was not the one who told the other what to think.
2. I was not the one who used immotive words.
3. I asked lots of questions and presented my beliefs open to all.
4. I was given no counter argument other than, you are wrong because I or the internet, say so.
5. I presented several pieces of my beliefs, Jesus, Bible, Shroud and was told, Jesus is make up, Bible is made up, no-one commented on the shroud, despite some clear point to rebuke, other than I was even more foolish to believe in this.

So on this forum we have someone happy with themselves, will to be questionned, wanted to discuss and talk openly about this stuff.

And (in general) a bunch of closed minds who shout and taunt.....

Who is religeous again...?
All there in black and white, go make your own judgement!

Turin shroud is a laughable hoax. Happy to help. I gladly taunt those who choose ignorance. Even moreso those who ape reason in doing so. Anyway, I'm not here to educate, I'm just in it for the taunting. While you're still drunk on Christianity, do entertain us some more. Tell us the one about the zombie again. That's our fave!