University and Employment Prospects
Discussion
el stovey said:
TuxRacer said:
el stovey said:
I'm not an 'employer' but I expect it depends on what you go into. If your degree is very vocational and directly related to your employment, then I think it would be worth your while getting into the 'best' university possible.
If you just want a degree to be a graduate then it's probably not as important.
I would've thought it would be the other way around. If you're looking to do something theoretical... maths maybe, then Oxbridge would be ideal. If you want to hit nails with a hammer (slanderous over simplification for which I apologise in advance) then does it really matter if you're not up on the latest research?If you just want a degree to be a graduate then it's probably not as important.
No, I mean if he's doing engineering and wants to become an engineer then it's more important to go to the best university and study engineering he can. If he's doing engineering and thinks he might become a journalist then it doesn't matter as much.Possibly.
If I can help it anyway.
OP - honestly, I think the best thing for you to do is graduate from where you are at and do an MSc at a University that is in the top tier. That gives you the best prospects after leaving education (getting a job in your chosen field), and the best prospects in the long term (because you are competing for promotions with people with MScs & PhDs).
Graduating from an 'easier' University should enable you to get a 1st or 2:1 and make the MSc easier to get on to.
Graduating from an 'easier' University should enable you to get a 1st or 2:1 and make the MSc easier to get on to.
From my experience Engineering employers (and probably most employers) do in fact care a great deal where your degree came from, and the difference in esteem between LJM and LU is wide indeed.
I can well see situations where many employers, or rather the recruitment agencies they get to do this for them, binning an application from LJM solely because it's not from an institution on the 'white list'.
[a 'white list' being an informal list of universities that employers know from experience that they can expect good graduates from]
If I were you I'd transfer and repeat year 1. I would expect you'll find your first year at LJM prepares you for only some of what you'll do in year 1 at LU.
I can well see situations where many employers, or rather the recruitment agencies they get to do this for them, binning an application from LJM solely because it's not from an institution on the 'white list'.
[a 'white list' being an informal list of universities that employers know from experience that they can expect good graduates from]
If I were you I'd transfer and repeat year 1. I would expect you'll find your first year at LJM prepares you for only some of what you'll do in year 1 at LU.
Do it, stay in uni for an extra year. The 'world of work' (which is a phrase you only hear whilst at university) is totally awful, you'll hate it. Everyone else does. God I wish I was back at university.
Stay in uni and have fun, and as a bonus get a proper degree from a proper institution.
Don't be poly-filler.
Stay in uni and have fun, and as a bonus get a proper degree from a proper institution.
Don't be poly-filler.
911newbie said:
From my experience Engineering employers (and probably most employers) do in fact care a great deal where your degree came from, and the difference in esteem between LJM and LU is wide indeed.
This! A lot of big engineering outfits tend to have connections with specific universities, and often sponsor work at the universities which can be a good way in to the company, and there's are usually certain universities which are seen as better than others for specific courses. For example when I did Aero Engineering at Loughborough a lot of employers (MoD, RR, BAe) considered Loughborough, Imperial, UMIST and Bath to be where you went for Aero Eng grads, and our department had some very close links with Rolls Royce and Ford (the department did Aero and Auto engineering) as well as some MoD funded work. Admittedly it was a few years back ('95) but degrees from "proper" universities were seen as a lot better than those from ex-polytechnics GavinPearson said:
OP - honestly, I think the best thing for you to do is graduate from where you are at and do an MSc at a University that is in the top tier. That gives you the best prospects after leaving education (getting a job in your chosen field), and the best prospects in the long term (because you are competing for promotions with people with MScs & PhDs).
Graduating from an 'easier' University should enable you to get a 1st or 2:1 and make the MSc easier to get on to.
I don't think that's the case in engineering as courses; at least if they're IET accredited. In the days of the IEE they would come round the department interviewing people, examining laboratories and checking the quality of course work and examinations. Graduating from an 'easier' University should enable you to get a 1st or 2:1 and make the MSc easier to get on to.
Frankly, unless the university is really as bad as you say that extra year or so would be better spent on a masters degree. Especially as you'll probably have a better idea of what you want to do by then.
I've a friend who did a DPhil at Oxford who found the facilities very poor compared with quite a few "inferior" universities.
CDP said:
GavinPearson said:
OP - honestly, I think the best thing for you to do is graduate from where you are at and do an MSc at a University that is in the top tier. That gives you the best prospects after leaving education (getting a job in your chosen field), and the best prospects in the long term (because you are competing for promotions with people with MScs & PhDs).
Graduating from an 'easier' University should enable you to get a 1st or 2:1 and make the MSc easier to get on to.
I don't think that's the case in engineering as courses; at least if they're IET accredited. In the days of the IEE they would come round the department interviewing people, examining laboratories and checking the quality of course work and examinations. Graduating from an 'easier' University should enable you to get a 1st or 2:1 and make the MSc easier to get on to.
Frankly, unless the university is really as bad as you say that extra year or so would be better spent on a masters degree. Especially as you'll probably have a better idea of what you want to do by then.
I've a friend who did a DPhil at Oxford who found the facilities very poor compared with quite a few "inferior" universities.
So, that said, the best thing to do is soldier on and come out of LJMU with a First. Then the OP can figure out what he really wants to do and do an MSc around that subject at a Bath, or a Bristol or other place the employers shop for graduates at.
Most engineering companies will be looking for a good honours/masters degree.
As for not caring where your degree comes from, that isn't strictly true - the company I work for employs heavily from 2 different unis in the UK - it is worth checking out what companies your uni has a relationship with - can make things much easier if you do an internship/sponsored project with a company - you can basically avoid the application process. This isn't to say that you can't do well with a degree from a lesser known uni, but it will undoubtedly make things a bit more difficult.
As for the "stay in uni as long as you can to avoid work" thing - to a point I agree, but 5 years with no real money coming in is a bit of a pain in the arse - my first "proper" paycheck was a revelation - not to mention all the different people you get to meet and the stuff you get to see that just doesn't happen at uni.
As for not caring where your degree comes from, that isn't strictly true - the company I work for employs heavily from 2 different unis in the UK - it is worth checking out what companies your uni has a relationship with - can make things much easier if you do an internship/sponsored project with a company - you can basically avoid the application process. This isn't to say that you can't do well with a degree from a lesser known uni, but it will undoubtedly make things a bit more difficult.
As for the "stay in uni as long as you can to avoid work" thing - to a point I agree, but 5 years with no real money coming in is a bit of a pain in the arse - my first "proper" paycheck was a revelation - not to mention all the different people you get to meet and the stuff you get to see that just doesn't happen at uni.
Riknos said:
randlemarcus said:
Very few employers will give a toss where it came from, as long as you can do what you purport to be able to.
This.While Oxford and Cambridge have a higher rep, an employer isn't going to give a crap about which city you did your degree in, more so how well you actually did in it.. Not worth wasting a year of your life to change the city you graduated from? Except for maybe the fact you get to do freshers all over again...
Edited by DangerousMike on Wednesday 24th November 07:35
If you move any employer will want to know why you suddenly quit one course and then went to another. Be prepared for awkward questions.
Some big employers do indeed have close links to specific university courses so choose on this basis if you do decide to go. Then when you get the question you have your answer, better links to future employers.
Engineering is in long term decline in the UK so you may want to consider if even staying in the UK is a good idea. Since I started studying engineering the UK has lost British Steel, Rover and MG. Those are just the big names that you've heard of, countless others have gone forever or the work has gone overseas.
It will see me out (I'm over 40) but at your age you really should think about what you are doing.
Some big employers do indeed have close links to specific university courses so choose on this basis if you do decide to go. Then when you get the question you have your answer, better links to future employers.
Engineering is in long term decline in the UK so you may want to consider if even staying in the UK is a good idea. Since I started studying engineering the UK has lost British Steel, Rover and MG. Those are just the big names that you've heard of, countless others have gone forever or the work has gone overseas.
It will see me out (I'm over 40) but at your age you really should think about what you are doing.
cymtriks said:
If you move any employer will want to know why you suddenly quit one course and then went to another. Be prepared for awkward questions.
Some big employers do indeed have close links to specific university courses so choose on this basis if you do decide to go. Then when you get the question you have your answer, better links to future employers.
Engineering is in long term decline in the UK so you may want to consider if even staying in the UK is a good idea. Since I started studying engineering the UK has lost British Steel, Rover and MG. Those are just the big names that you've heard of, countless others have gone forever or the work has gone overseas.
It will see me out (I'm over 40) but at your age you really should think about what you are doing.
Why not work abroad then? The world is a big place and the UK rather small.Some big employers do indeed have close links to specific university courses so choose on this basis if you do decide to go. Then when you get the question you have your answer, better links to future employers.
Engineering is in long term decline in the UK so you may want to consider if even staying in the UK is a good idea. Since I started studying engineering the UK has lost British Steel, Rover and MG. Those are just the big names that you've heard of, countless others have gone forever or the work has gone overseas.
It will see me out (I'm over 40) but at your age you really should think about what you are doing.
Bing o said:
cymtriks said:
If you move any employer will want to know why you suddenly quit one course and then went to another. Be prepared for awkward questions.
Some big employers do indeed have close links to specific university courses so choose on this basis if you do decide to go. Then when you get the question you have your answer, better links to future employers.
Engineering is in long term decline in the UK so you may want to consider if even staying in the UK is a good idea. Since I started studying engineering the UK has lost British Steel, Rover and MG. Those are just the big names that you've heard of, countless others have gone forever or the work has gone overseas.
It will see me out (I'm over 40) but at your age you really should think about what you are doing.
Why not work abroad then? The world is a big place and the UK rather small.Some big employers do indeed have close links to specific university courses so choose on this basis if you do decide to go. Then when you get the question you have your answer, better links to future employers.
Engineering is in long term decline in the UK so you may want to consider if even staying in the UK is a good idea. Since I started studying engineering the UK has lost British Steel, Rover and MG. Those are just the big names that you've heard of, countless others have gone forever or the work has gone overseas.
It will see me out (I'm over 40) but at your age you really should think about what you are doing.
Get on the blower and ask a few of the companies that you'd be interested in working for.
It's the only way to know for sure.
Personally my hunch is you need to give yourself every opportunity I.e. Get the best degree from the best Uni.
So either swap and start your second year at Liverpool or finish at John M and do a masters (I assume this would be a more economical use of time vs resitting a year).
However you need to ask yourself, can you get a decent grade if you swap I.e a 2.1 minimum.
Competition for engineering jobs is only going to increase, especially in the automotive industry with shared platforms etc etc.
It's the only way to know for sure.
Personally my hunch is you need to give yourself every opportunity I.e. Get the best degree from the best Uni.
So either swap and start your second year at Liverpool or finish at John M and do a masters (I assume this would be a more economical use of time vs resitting a year).
However you need to ask yourself, can you get a decent grade if you swap I.e a 2.1 minimum.
Competition for engineering jobs is only going to increase, especially in the automotive industry with shared platforms etc etc.
cymtriks said:
Engineering is in long term decline in the UK so you may want to consider if even staying in the UK is a good idea. Since I started studying engineering the UK has lost British Steel, Rover and MG. Those are just the big names that you've heard of, countless others have gone forever or the work has gone overseas.
It will see me out (I'm over 40) but at your age you really should think about what you are doing.
I'm not sure that I agree with that. I've just been made redundant (mechanical engineer), and there appears to be a shortage of stress engineers/structural dynamics candidates at the moment. I had no problems getting interviews and job offers (I've got ten years experience, and CEng) from aerospace and high tech manufacturing companies. It will see me out (I'm over 40) but at your age you really should think about what you are doing.
Having said that, I've decided to quit engineering and retrain (into something better paid). The beauty of an engineering/physics degree is that it really gives you the widest possible range of options in terms of future career.
And on the original point, I think if you are a new grad, it will make a great deal of difference what uni you went to. There's not a lot else for a future employer to discriminate between candidates on (grades obviously).
Edited by tybalt on Wednesday 24th November 10:38
Don't know what all this Uni fuss is about, as long as you can turn within a .001 on a lathe or machine a block square you're good to go!
There's a lot to be learnt in mechanical side of engineering from 'old boys' that I don't think universities teach. I started at 16 and have been in it 6 years, I don't profess to know it all, but then no one truely can. I do know that machining and mechanical engineering is on it's knees in this country. Work is far and few between and we're nothing like the engineering empire we used to be.
Good on you though, not many people these days seem to be wanting to get their hands dirty in industry!
There's a lot to be learnt in mechanical side of engineering from 'old boys' that I don't think universities teach. I started at 16 and have been in it 6 years, I don't profess to know it all, but then no one truely can. I do know that machining and mechanical engineering is on it's knees in this country. Work is far and few between and we're nothing like the engineering empire we used to be.
Good on you though, not many people these days seem to be wanting to get their hands dirty in industry!
Wait a minute, people are getting confused here. Mechinical Engineering Engineer and Mechinical Engineering Technician. If he gets the degree, it would be more of the Mechinical Engineering Engineer role. You get your own desk, spend time looking at new ways to do things but you don't get your hands dirty and spent time with higher management in meeting, while the techs are out in the plants fixing, problem solving and installing equipment.
Small firms you may be doing some hands on, but big firms will have you in a office. This is the things that school will not tell you. The difference in engineering. Engineer and Technician. My work finds its harder to get Technicians than Engineers because there are more people doing degrees that apprenticeships so the hand skills part is lost, as it hard to teach on a live work manufacturing plant in a classroom at uni.
Small firms you may be doing some hands on, but big firms will have you in a office. This is the things that school will not tell you. The difference in engineering. Engineer and Technician. My work finds its harder to get Technicians than Engineers because there are more people doing degrees that apprenticeships so the hand skills part is lost, as it hard to teach on a live work manufacturing plant in a classroom at uni.
Robert Burns said:
Wait a minute, people are getting confused here. Mechinical Engineering Engineer and Mechinical Engineering Technician. If he gets the degree, it would be more of the Mechinical Engineering Engineer role. You get your own desk, spend time looking at new ways to do things but you don't get your hands dirty and spent time with higher management in meeting, while the techs are out in the plants fixing, problem solving and installing equipment.
Small firms you may be doing some hands on, but big firms will have you in a office. This is the things that school will not tell you. The difference in engineering. Engineer and Technician. My work finds its harder to get Technicians than Engineers because there are more people doing degrees that apprenticeships so the hand skills part is lost, as it hard to teach on a live work manufacturing plant in a classroom at uni.
There are very very few office based actual engineers. There are an awful lot of office based spare parts with a title of engineer. An engineer who doesn't get his hands dirty usually doesn't know what is going on with the equipment.Small firms you may be doing some hands on, but big firms will have you in a office. This is the things that school will not tell you. The difference in engineering. Engineer and Technician. My work finds its harder to get Technicians than Engineers because there are more people doing degrees that apprenticeships so the hand skills part is lost, as it hard to teach on a live work manufacturing plant in a classroom at uni.
But I agree there is a difference between a technician and engineer.
elster said:
There are very very few office based actual engineers. There are an awful lot of office based spare parts with a title of engineer. An engineer who doesn't get his hands dirty usually doesn't know what is going on with the equipment.
So what do you call someone who carries out stress analysis? I don't get my hands dirty (although I do some hands on, but I tend to work in cleanrooms!).What about someone who carries out valve train dynamics modelling (e.g. in F1)?
I think you need to think more widely about what constitutes engineering.
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