Pit Bull attack, what would you do ?

[Stickyfinger]

J4CKO said:

Would you propose a ban on people owning dogs ?

Silly, why "expand" the augment to a level nobody is asking for....?

IF you wish to risk it in your home then fine, it is your kids face after all.

Try answering ONE of the questions.....why not muzzle in Public ? you put it on a lead don't you so why not.

[durbster]

Stickyfinger said:

Yes, the child was injured by a dog.....it is exactly what we are talking about.

Children get injured by lots of things. Almost everything in fact.

Stickyfinger said:

ALL I am saying is they should be muzzled in Public.

You haven't given a valid reason why. Can you provide evidence that dogs launch attacks on random members of the public so regularly that it requires legislation?

Yes, dogs bite people sometimes but it's almost always inside homes. I've been bitten three times by dogs (for the record, a Collie, Jack Russell and sausage crossbreed thing) but all were my fault and all by dogs I knew.

Consider somewhere like the Dog's Trust or Battersea, in which they have dogs of all breeds, from all backgrounds, in various states of sickness, distress and mistreatment, but also experienced handlers.

They don't routinely put muzzles on them. Why do you think that is?

irocfan said:

...I accept that it's a rarity but when it happens you get the stories about how good the dog was, how well behaved, always left with children etc etc (and that from the non-chavvy side of things )

I don't think that's true. I don't recall seeing a story about a dog attack in which the dog had been appropriately housed, trained, socialised and exercised regularly. It usually seems to be a big, bored dog in a small home.

[Autopilot]

ash73 said:

otolith said:

For example, what fking idiot can't see that this is a tragedy waiting to happen?

https://www.facebook.com/briana.aguon/videos/10205...

That's unbelievable. I wouldn't trust a breed like that around kids, and how can any owner be that stupid?

Duh, what does that body language mean? And that growling? What would Cesar Milan do? Duh, my brain's not big enough, I'll just film my kid being mutilated, it's cute

Undisciplined dog owners are one step closer to hell than shouty lycra clad fat forties cyclists

I can't see the video from work, but assume it's the child cuddling the Rottweiler that seems less than pleased by the attention it's getting.

If it is, I also cringed when I saw it. Who's fault would it be if the dog decided to eat the child? The dog, the child or the (stupid) adult filming?

There's nothing wrong with 'breeds like that'. If you're going to have kids and dogs in the same household then you really need to teach the kids how to be respectful to the animal, dogs don't tend to attack for no reason or without warning. Kids will be kids of course, but why set a dog up for failure by allowing kids to jump on them, pull ears, stick hands in mouths etc.

[otolith]

Yep, it's the rotty all but begging the kid to get the hell out of its face while the imbecilic adults obliviously film the whole thing.

[longblackcoat]

Stickyfinger said:

Try answering ONE of the questions.....why not muzzle in Public ? you put it on a lead don't you so why not.

In the same way, why not make all cars drive at 15mph around town? The answer to both questions is that the response would be disproportionate to the risk; the advantage gained would not outweigh the downside.

My dogs (yes, I have three) aren't muzzled. When I walk them in the woods they are off the lead as a default. In the mornings I walk super-early, so I never see anyone, but a the weekend it's a rare walk when I don't come across families with children. In all those hundreds of interactions there's been no aggression from my dogs, and lots of very happy children who like to stroke "the big doggies".

The most patient of my hounds is a registered therapy dog - we visit local residential care homes to allow those who are no longer able to have dogs of their own to interact with mine. For those suffering with dementia, it can help to unlock some of their deeper memories, perhaps of when they had dogs as a child, and brings considerable contentment to them. The reason she's the only one of mine who's a PAT dog is because she's prepared to put up with being stroked and prodded by a bunch of strangers for several hours at a time; both my others would get a bit fed up and want to curl up and ignore folk after a while.

Overall, my dogs (I have two ex-racing trailhounds - a sort of foxhound - and a lurcher) bring a lot of happiness. They don’t growl, attack, or scare. Kids like them, their parents like them, and older folk like them.

Why, then, should they be muzzled?

[J4CKO]

Stickyfinger said:

J4CKO said:

Would you propose a ban on people owning dogs ?

Silly, why "expand" the augment to a level nobody is asking for....?

IF you wish to risk it in your home then fine, it is your kids face after all.

Try answering ONE of the questions.....why not muzzle in Public ? you put it on a lead don't you so why not.

That wasnt what Nik was asking was it ? I was trying to determine what he thought the solution was, Muzzles werent mentioned in the post I was replying to.

It will never happen anyway, I dont think any country has ever had a law requiring dogs to be muzzled at all times, the risk is tiny relative to the number of human/dog interactions, most of the really bad attacks that are in the news are in people homes anyway.

I dont think even with non dog owners there would be much support for it, except perhaps with big dogs or certain breeds.

On ours his rear end is significantly more dangerous than the front in my experience, he just sat on the windowsill in front of my desk and gassed me.

[irocfan]

just out of curiosity for the dog owners... licences, yay or nay? It strikes me as a win/win situation as fkwits likely wouldn't be bothered thereby leading to the perception of more responsible owners

[Hooli]

Tango13 said:

he makes some sort of pathetic half arsed wimpering yelp noise when he wants attention and/or a dog treat but that's it

Both of ours do that too, in fact every staffy I've ever known has. It is a funny pathetic noise from that size of dog isn't it?

[R8VXF]

irocfan said:

just out of curiosity for the dog owners... licences, yay or nay? It strikes me as a win/win situation as fkwits likely wouldn't be bothered thereby leading to the perception of more responsible owners

New laws coming in this year require id chipping, and no I wouldn't mind licencing if it meant repealing the DDA so that I could own a Pitbull!

[Hooli]

irocfan said:

just out of curiosity for the dog owners... licences, yay or nay? It strikes me as a win/win situation as fkwits likely wouldn't be bothered thereby leading to the perception of more responsible owners

No. Solely because it'll be an extra tax with nothing useful coming out of it. They recently started taxing dog food so that money could be used to the run the system at no extra cost to us. That way & linked to the chips most dogs have then I'd say yes.

[otolith]

irocfan said:

just out of curiosity for the dog owners... licences, yay or nay? It strikes me as a win/win situation as fkwits likely wouldn't be bothered thereby leading to the perception of more responsible owners

Pointless tax. Nice responsible owners would pay up, scumbags would ignore it, nobody would enforce it and most of it would be spent administering it. Apart from making responsible owners poorer, what have you achieved? May as well set fire to some money.

If you want a scheme which controls who is allowed to breed and keep dogs and which makes sure that you can't have one unless you are responsible, that's a different matter. But in practice, the cost and bureaucracy of such a thing would be immense, you have to question whether it would be proportionate to the problem. I would argue not.

[ehonda]

irocfan said:

just out of curiosity for the dog owners... licences, yay or nay? It strikes me as a win/win situation as fkwits likely wouldn't be bothered thereby leading to the perception of more responsible owners

I wouldn't object as long as it didn't cost too much, but it's a struggle to see any benefit.
I'd rather see breeding regulated. Stop people breeding dogs unless they have a licence.
Found breeding dogs without a licence = massive fine.
Own a dog from an unlicensed litter = massive fine.
Own a dog without a microchip = massive fine.

None of that should impact responsible dog owners.

The flaw in my great plan is that I'm not sure how you would set the criteria for becoming an authorised breeder, I'd also be sad to see the back of mongrels.

[Hooli]

ehonda said:

irocfan said:

just out of curiosity for the dog owners... licences, yay or nay? It strikes me as a win/win situation as fkwits likely wouldn't be bothered thereby leading to the perception of more responsible owners

I wouldn't object as long as it didn't cost too much, but it's a struggle to see any benefit.
I'd rather see breeding regulated. Stop people breeding dogs unless they have a licence.
Found breeding dogs without a licence = massive fine.
Own a dog from an unlicensed litter = massive fine.
Own a dog without a microchip = massive fine.

None of that should impact responsible dog owners.

The flaw in my great plan is that I'm not sure how you would set the criteria for becoming an authorised breeder, I'd also be sad to see the back of mongrels.

I like this plan, but can't see a way out of the pitfalls either.

[vanordinaire]

durbster said:

irocfan said:

...I accept that it's a rarity but when it happens you get the stories about how good the dog was, how well behaved, always left with children etc etc (and that from the non-chavvy side of things )

I don't think that's true. I don't recall seeing a story about a dog attack in which the dog had been appropriately housed, trained, socialised and exercised regularly. It usually seems to be a big, bored dog in a small home.

The dog which attacked me (see post from a couple of days ago) was a friend's dog, well trained and brought up and trained in a family home. The problem was that while looking after it for the weekend I unwittingly did something that I presume made it feel threatened. I am an experienced dog owner but I had absolutely no forewarning that anything was wrong. I still have two dogs of my own which I trust completely, but I am now far more wary of other people's dogs no matter what their owners say.

[ehonda]

R8VXF said:

New laws coming in this year require id chipping, and no I wouldn't mind licencing if it meant repealing the DDA so that I could own a Pitbull!

Have a look at the breeds on the last ten years on this list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in...

If you believed those figures would you still want to own a pitbull?

[opieoilman]

irocfan said:

just out of curiosity for the dog owners... licences, yay or nay? It strikes me as a win/win situation as fkwits likely wouldn't be bothered thereby leading to the perception of more responsible owners

Yep, I'd be happy with that. I have seen some complete and utter scum with staffies (a couple were encouraging their dog to have a go at mine) and 'people' (I really don't think they are part of the human race) like that should not be allowed to own animals of any sort. Luckily, their staffies did what they are supposed to do and started playing with my dog (a staffy cross). Sadly, their owners looked really disappointed by the outcome.

[Autopilot]

irocfan said:

just out of curiosity for the dog owners... licences, yay or nay? It strikes me as a win/win situation as fkwits likely wouldn't be bothered thereby leading to the perception of more responsible owners

Rather than licences, I'd say a doggie driving test is more appropriate. Some people just shouldn't have dogs! Saying that, some people should have kids either, so maybe a basic competency test.

In some European countries, if your dog doesn't pass the BH exam, the dog isn't allowed to breed. I believe there are ways around this, but as dog ownership is taken more seriously elsewhere, demand is low.

[Autopilot]

I've worked as a 'Helper' at a sports dog club. The Helper is the person who stands in a hideaway wearing a bite sleeve and well, you've guessed it, gets bitten on the sleeve by the dog. Most dogs I've trained with are used for competition sport (Schutzhund) but have also trained with a number of security dog handlers.

In answer to the original point of this thread asking what you'd do in the event of an attack from a Pit Bull, In my experience, if you were the person on the receiving end you'd really want to hope that a golf club / bread knife decapitator / screwdriver wielding person that has previously responded to in this thread is there to help out.

While the sleeve protects my arm from the bite, my biggest protection is from the handler. If they tell the dog to let go of the sleeve, they do it. If the dog is in mid air and the handler tells the dog to stop, it won't take the bite. Most of the time, I do of course have a dog hanging off my arm so can tell you first hand what it's like to have a highly driven dog hanging off of you (minus all the puncture wounds and pain that would accompany a real attack). In a controlled environment, I catch the dog, I know where it's coming from and which side it's going for. I then spin the dog on the sleeve to slow it down (and prevent any injury to the dogs jaw) so kind of spin through 180 degrees. The dogs are trained to do a full bite - ie the sleeve goes to the very back of its mouth. The ONLY way I can get out of there is by either the handler telling the dog to let go, or I pull my arm out the sleeve.

From time to time, it doesn't go to plan, I get the timing wrong and I get hit by the dog in a similar way you would in a running attack. I tend to stay on my feet by it's not uncommon as 40kgs of dog hits you full pelt to send me flying. It's pretty much the same as trying to grab hold of a moving car. If you're crawling around on the floor with a dog hanging off of you, you'd be VERY lucky to get back to your feet as the dog will be pulling like hell, shaking its head around. Even a 40kg dog will overpower a powerfully build company director type from standing. The dog's centre of gravity is lower, has four feet on the floor, so before you can even begin to struggle to fight with the dog, you need to be exerting enough force to remove the 40kgs from the equation, so if you can bicep curl a 40kg dumbbell (which doesn't fight back) left handed, then you'd probably be fine.

If something like a Pit Bull attacked and went in to fight-drive, you'd not have much to fight it with. If you witnessed the attack and waded in your only options would be to go for the eyes and hope the dog releases or get stabby / iron bar happy.

Edited by Autopilot on Wednesday 13th January 14:47

[J4CKO]

Autopilot said:

I've worked as a 'Helper' at a sports dog club. The Helper is the person who stands in a hideaway wearing a bite sleeve and well, you've guessed it, gets bitten on the sleeve by the dog. Most dogs I've trained with are used for competition sport (Schutzhund) but have also trained with a number of security dog handlers.

In answer to the original point of this thread asking what you'd do in the event of an attack from a Pit Bull, In my experience, if you were the person on the receiving end you'd really want to hope that a golf club / bread knife decapitator / screwdriver wielding person that has previously responded to in this thread is there to help out.

While the sleeve protects my arm from the bite, my biggest protection is from the handler. If they tell the dog to let go of the sleeve, they do it. If the dog is in mid air and the handler tells the dog to stop, it won't take the bite. Most of the time, I do of course have a dog hanging off my arm so can tell you first hand what it's like to have a highly driven dog hanging off of you (minus all the puncture wounds and pain that would accompany a real attack). In a controlled environment, I catch the dog, I know where it's coming from and which side it's going for. I then spin the dog on the sleeve to slow it down (and prevent any injury to the dogs jaw) so kind of spin through 180 degrees. The dogs are trained to do a full bite - ie the sleeve goes to the very back of its mouth. The ONLY way I can get out of there is by either the handler telling the dog to let go, or I pull my arm out the sleeve.

From time to time, it doesn't go to plan, I get the timing wrong and I get hit by the dog in a similar way you would in a running attack. I tend to stay on my feet by it's not uncommon as 40kgs of dog hits you full pelt to send me flying. It's pretty much the same as trying to grab hold of a moving car. If you're crawling around on the floor with a dog hanging off of you, you'd be VERY lucky to get back to your feet as the dog will be pulling like hell, shaking its head around. Even a 40kg dog will overpower a powerfully build company director type from standing. The dog's centre of gravity is lower, has four feet on the floor, so before you can even begin to struggle to fight with the dog, you need to be exerting enough force to remove the 40kgs from the equation, so if you can bicep curl a 40kg dumbbell (which doesn't fight back) left handed, then you'd probably be fine.

If something like a Pit Bull attacked and went in to fight-drive, you'd not have much to fight it with. If you witnessed the attack and waded in your only options would be to go for the eyes and hope the dog releases or get stabby / iron bar happy.

Edited by Autopilot on Wednesday 13th January 14:47

Good post, sums up how I was thinking, I saw a PitBull attack on Liveleak and it just hung on and dragged the guy round, same thing as our small dog weighing perhaps 8 kilos does to a toy and it is amazing, how much force he can exert for such a small dog, he can yank stuff back and forth like a shark does, seemingly oblivious to any potential effects so scale that up and it is terrifying, a bit like I hope that Squirrels never evolve to be any bigger.

For a man to stop a big dog, it could only really be via some kind of weapon and in the case I saw, even a hard a whack off a stick isnt enough, it needs to be potentially a fatal wound, but whether you could do that with a dog attached to your arm I dont know, plus you would need to find something suitable but the trouble is it is pulling you so your arm is outstretched, not sure you could get close enough, depends of course where it has got you, they seem to go for arms.

A Staff is smaller and lighter so, conceivably you could lift it up, still, dont want to find out.

[durbster]

Very interesting Autopilot, thanks.

What do you reckon about chucking a heavy blanket or duvet over it and using that to pin it down and offer some protection? Since these things happen in the home that might be more likely to be available than a machete.