Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
JagLover said:
mikey_b said:
Interesting. It's come up numerous times in this thread that a major reason people go private is because state schools are apparently quite s
t. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.
Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
A long time ago for me now but the experience of A levels and the first five years in the state sector is very different.t. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
For starters you shed all the pupils who didn't want to be there and tended to act up as a result. Secondly A levels are far more academically vigorous and those more suited to them can thrive and finally class sizes at A level can be much lower in the state sector, in the 12-20 range.
JagLover said:
mikey_b said:
Interesting. It's come up numerous times in this thread that a major reason people go private is because state schools are apparently quite st. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.
Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
A long time ago for me now but the experience of A levels and the first five years in the state sector is very different.t. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
For starters you shed all the pupils who didn't want to be there and tended to act up as a result. Secondly A levels are far more academically vigorous and those more suited to them can thrive and finally class sizes at A level can be much lower in the state sector, in the 12-20 range.
As such It's not "state schools" in this instance, it's "state sixth-forms" which as mentioned above consist of a less wide range of abilities and attitudes, most with a commitment to higher education. Nor is it "all state sixth-forms" as we're talking about Hills Road VIth Form College and others of similar calibre.
Finally those students referred to are swapping to the state sector aspiring to a Cambridge place and wanting to avoid being a victim of social engineering, so they could mostly teach themselves anyway, but that won't be needed in those good sixth forms. It's not such a bad thing, however, as while there's some excellent teaching at Cambridge, not all leading academics are either interested in the teaching they do, nor are they good at it, so being able to teach yourself and do so with very quick uptake in 8 week terms is a valuable asset even in less pressured degrees.
My experience of sixth form was at a sixth form college, where the ethos and environment was nothing like school. Seeing a teacher tell someone in the first week that if they didn't want to be there they were welcome to fk off was refreshing. No uniform, treated like adults. My partner's son is now in the sixth form at a state grammar, and his experience looks to be school++. Strict uniform policy, detentions handed out, etc.
k off was refreshing. No uniform, treated like adults. My partner's son is now in the sixth form at a state grammar, and his experience looks to be school++. Strict uniform policy, detentions handed out, etc. 
otolith said:
My experience of sixth form was at a sixth form college, where the ethos and environment was nothing like school. Seeing a teacher tell someone in the first week that if they didn't want to be there they were welcome to fk off was refreshing. No uniform, treated like adults. My partner's son is now in the sixth form at a state grammar, and his experience looks to be school++. Strict uniform policy, detentions handed out, etc.
This is still why I think you get disrupters there. I did GCSE’s and all my mates were going to a place like what you describe. So I went too, despite no interest really. Found the freedom overwhelming so took it for granted and barely went to a single lesson, those that I did I was still a bit distracting to others. But they did put a stop to it after the first year which obviously is much harder to do in a state school. k off was refreshing. No uniform, treated like adults. My partner's son is now in the sixth form at a state grammar, and his experience looks to be school++. Strict uniform policy, detentions handed out, etc. CLK-GTR said:
By the time you're at 6th form that bottom 10% have gone. Everybody there wants to be there.
I have changed my mind recently in that i used to think private school was more important as it approached exam time but now i think the opposite, private is most important to set the early learning patterns and work ethic.
This. I have changed my mind recently in that i used to think private school was more important as it approached exam time but now i think the opposite, private is most important to set the early learning patterns and work ethic.
Both mine went to a 6th form college for the last 2 years & by that time they could be trusted not to f
k about too much.There were a couple of moments though with both of them that required mild "parental intervention".
I also think that 6th form college was quite a good preparation for Uni as well.
Whether you have access to good 6th form colleges does seem to depend on where you are in the Country. Some counties have far more of them than others as I understand it.
okgo said:
This is still why I think you get disrupters there. I did GCSE’s and all my mates were going to a place like what you describe. So I went too, despite no interest really. Found the freedom overwhelming so took it for granted and barely went to a single lesson, those that I did I was still a bit distracting to others. But they did put a stop to it after the first year which obviously is much harder to do in a state school.
Same for me once I reached 6th form there was simply no consequence for me if I didn't attend a lesson, so I just didn't. I would have done much better somewhere stricter and instead went off the rails.
JagLover said:
A long time ago for me now but the experience of A levels and the first five years in the state sector is very different.
For starters you shed all the pupils who didn't want to be there and tended to act up as a result. Secondly A levels are far more academically vigorous and those more suited to them can thrive and finally class sizes at A level can be much lower in the state sector, in the 12-20 range.
Possibly explains why the independent schools round these 'ere parts make a big noise about their GCSE results, and a comparison with the local state schools, but then don't publish A-Level results - probably because there's little to tell between them at that stage.For starters you shed all the pupils who didn't want to be there and tended to act up as a result. Secondly A levels are far more academically vigorous and those more suited to them can thrive and finally class sizes at A level can be much lower in the state sector, in the 12-20 range.
beagrizzly said:
JagLover said:
A long time ago for me now but the experience of A levels and the first five years in the state sector is very different.
For starters you shed all the pupils who didn't want to be there and tended to act up as a result. Secondly A levels are far more academically vigorous and those more suited to them can thrive and finally class sizes at A level can be much lower in the state sector, in the 12-20 range.
Possibly explains why the independent schools round these 'ere parts make a big noise about their GCSE results, and a comparison with the local state schools, but then don't publish A-Level results - probably because there's little to tell between them at that stage.For starters you shed all the pupils who didn't want to be there and tended to act up as a result. Secondly A levels are far more academically vigorous and those more suited to them can thrive and finally class sizes at A level can be much lower in the state sector, in the 12-20 range.
Our exceptionally good state school (used to be a grammar, and still maintains that ethic), had 42% of its a-levels achieving A-A* - our local electric private school is 72% which is a material difference.
We would have preferred to send our daughter to that state school, but you had to live 0.8mile from the front gate!
PugwasHDJ80 said:
beagrizzly said:
JagLover said:
A long time ago for me now but the experience of A levels and the first five years in the state sector is very different.
For starters you shed all the pupils who didn't want to be there and tended to act up as a result. Secondly A levels are far more academically vigorous and those more suited to them can thrive and finally class sizes at A level can be much lower in the state sector, in the 12-20 range.
Possibly explains why the independent schools round these 'ere parts make a big noise about their GCSE results, and a comparison with the local state schools, but then don't publish A-Level results - probably because there's little to tell between them at that stage.For starters you shed all the pupils who didn't want to be there and tended to act up as a result. Secondly A levels are far more academically vigorous and those more suited to them can thrive and finally class sizes at A level can be much lower in the state sector, in the 12-20 range.
Our exceptionally good state school (used to be a grammar, and still maintains that ethic), had 42% of its a-levels achieving A-A* - our local electric private school is 72% which is a material difference.
We would have preferred to send our daughter to that state school, but you had to live 0.8mile from the front gate!
All very interesting but the idea that grades is the end of everything is slightly misguided. This sort of loops round to how the thread started, but it is all the other benefits a private school gives. The simple difference is state schools are all about grades and inspections. They teach rather than educate. Nothing else matters. Fair enough.
Private schools educate. Yes grades are important but the child, the individual matters far more. Rounded learning, experiences, competition, sport, drama, music, activities etc. As a product of private school with a child in one, I have never much cared for the pure academics.
My wife went to grammar school and absolutely hated it as it was teaching on steroids rather than educating. I would hate for a child of mine to feel that way about what are, as the cliché says, the best days of your life.
Private schools educate. Yes grades are important but the child, the individual matters far more. Rounded learning, experiences, competition, sport, drama, music, activities etc. As a product of private school with a child in one, I have never much cared for the pure academics.
My wife went to grammar school and absolutely hated it as it was teaching on steroids rather than educating. I would hate for a child of mine to feel that way about what are, as the cliché says, the best days of your life.
Seeing the debate in mainstream news over the last few weeks.
Let's have a proper Education Voucher system that covers academic, fitness and school meals. Anything else has VAT applied and is a matter of choice. Encourage private schools to open their sports, music and arts facilities to all and provide support for those who can't afford to access them.
Let's have a proper Education Voucher system that covers academic, fitness and school meals. Anything else has VAT applied and is a matter of choice. Encourage private schools to open their sports, music and arts facilities to all and provide support for those who can't afford to access them.
Tom8 said:
All very interesting but the idea that grades is the end of everything is slightly misguided. This sort of loops round to how the thread started, but it is all the other benefits a private school gives. The simple difference is state schools are all about grades and inspections. They teach rather than educate. Nothing else matters. Fair enough.
Private schools educate. Yes grades are important but the child, the individual matters far more. Rounded learning, experiences, competition, sport, drama, music, activities etc. As a product of private school with a child in one, I have never much cared for the pure academics.
My wife went to grammar school and absolutely hated it as it was teaching on steroids rather than educating. I would hate for a child of mine to feel that way about what are, as the cliché says, the best days of your life.
I'm not sure which state schools you are referring to, and I can only really speak with any confidence about the one my children are at, but it offers all the above and more, and is far from being 'all about grades and inspections'. Maybe we're just lucky.Private schools educate. Yes grades are important but the child, the individual matters far more. Rounded learning, experiences, competition, sport, drama, music, activities etc. As a product of private school with a child in one, I have never much cared for the pure academics.
My wife went to grammar school and absolutely hated it as it was teaching on steroids rather than educating. I would hate for a child of mine to feel that way about what are, as the cliché says, the best days of your life.
There is clearly a lot of confirmation bias with independent schools and those who use them, as very few of the supposed benefits can be proven in any meaningful way. My own alma mater, for example, which was a bit of a hole from a buildings perspective when I was there, but very strong on academics, now seems to be all about the facilities. To be fair, it does have a very shiny gym, coffee shop, library and some lovely brand new 'private study pods', all of which I've been made aware of via Instagram.
You pays your money and you takes your choice (if your kids can pass the entrance exam, natch), but is it worth making sacrifices for? Not from where I'm sat, but then maybe I'm in a privileged position, with a high performing state school half a mile away, and I might perhaps have gone down a different route were this not the case.
For what it's worth, I don't think the VAT on fees is a good idea at all (if it even happens). I also don't really think it'll make a huge difference to the sector. If you're willing to make sacrifices to achieve what you have chosen for your kids, then most will find a way of continuing to do so. Some won't be able - understood - but I personally think that number will be small.
Tom8 said:
All very interesting but the idea that grades is the end of everything is slightly misguided. This sort of loops round to how the thread started, but it is all the other benefits a private school gives. The simple difference is state schools are all about grades and inspections. They teach rather than educate. Nothing else matters. Fair enough.
Private schools educate. Yes grades are important but the child, the individual matters far more. Rounded learning, experiences, competition, sport, drama, music, activities etc. As a product of private school with a child in one, I have never much cared for the pure academics.
My wife went to grammar school and absolutely hated it as it was teaching on steroids rather than educating. I would hate for a child of mine to feel that way about what are, as the cliché says, the best days of your life.
This is the dilemma that we will face soon. I went to an independent and my wife was state. She's the one that had more of an opinion about putting our lad into private prep rather than local primary (and after requesting a look around the local primary my mind was made up as well). But living in a state grammar area with the schools getting some of the top grades nationally, my concern has become far more about the overall experience of independent vs state grammar. And those state grammars do chase the grades - there's plenty of local rumour about what goes on to manipulate who gets in, as there's an increasing number of pupils from outside the borough getting in...Private schools educate. Yes grades are important but the child, the individual matters far more. Rounded learning, experiences, competition, sport, drama, music, activities etc. As a product of private school with a child in one, I have never much cared for the pure academics.
My wife went to grammar school and absolutely hated it as it was teaching on steroids rather than educating. I would hate for a child of mine to feel that way about what are, as the cliché says, the best days of your life.
But then it's at no cost vs potentially £20-25k/year for the independent.
okgo said:
You’ve paid the price already in inflated house prices
It’s oft overlooked but to be in catchment of such places the last few posters mention you can easily have paid a set or two of fees.
We've been here 12yrs and tbh the house prices were fairly typical of the wider boroughs when we moved here. Can't say that now mind!It’s oft overlooked but to be in catchment of such places the last few posters mention you can easily have paid a set or two of fees.
okgo said:
You’ve paid the price already in inflated house prices
It’s oft overlooked but to be in catchment of such places the last few posters mention you can easily have paid a set or two of fees.
It's an interesting point. We bought here before we were even married, with no thoughts to the education of any future offspring, but it is expensive when compared to neighbouring towns, and the schools are probably amongst the reasons why.It’s oft overlooked but to be in catchment of such places the last few posters mention you can easily have paid a set or two of fees.
JimmyConwayNW said:
okgo said:
This is still why I think you get disrupters there. I did GCSE’s and all my mates were going to a place like what you describe. So I went too, despite no interest really. Found the freedom overwhelming so took it for granted and barely went to a single lesson, those that I did I was still a bit distracting to others. But they did put a stop to it after the first year which obviously is much harder to do in a state school.
Same for me once I reached 6th form there was simply no consequence for me if I didn't attend a lesson, so I just didn't. I would have done much better somewhere stricter and instead went off the rails.
EmBe said:
JimmyConwayNW said:
okgo said:
This is still why I think you get disrupters there. I did GCSE’s and all my mates were going to a place like what you describe. So I went too, despite no interest really. Found the freedom overwhelming so took it for granted and barely went to a single lesson, those that I did I was still a bit distracting to others. But they did put a stop to it after the first year which obviously is much harder to do in a state school.
Same for me once I reached 6th form there was simply no consequence for me if I didn't attend a lesson, so I just didn't. I would have done much better somewhere stricter and instead went off the rails.
If you didnt turn upto a lesson you would have your house master asking you why and a b
king handed out. 
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