Gun Pawn - Warning - Lots of Pictures - as requested

[ErnestM]

BruceV8 said:

Ernest thanks for that informative post and that link on two counts:

I had never heard of Kahr (being mainly interested in classic sporting rifles and ¬ professionally ¬ military weapons) but if we were allowed defensive handguns I think I would go for one of those

That site looks fascinating: Thats my Sunday evening written off browsing through it


Just out of interest what do you use for home defence? I would go for a shotgun (if we were allowed) but do you use a handgun for that?

I use the USPc 9mm for home defense.

Regarding shotguns - in the standard US environment (drywall), a shotgun is no more or less dangerous than a handgun for home defense (assuming that one is concerned about overpenetration). I've got a link somewhere on a test where somebody used a shotgun, handgun and .223/5.56 rifle. The 5.56 was actually the least penetrative due to bullet breakup IIRC. I'll see if I can find it. Some would say that the "racking of the shotgun" would be enough to frighten of potential threats. Two problems with that (1)they may be trustees of modern unlicensed pharmaciticals (in which case they don't care) and (2)they may not know what the sound of a racking shotgun REALLY (as opposed to the movies) sounds like. I think that if one shouted "I am heavily armed and the police are on their way", that might do the trick.

My main home defense mechanism is a manual alarm trip that activates a couple of high decible sirens and sends a call to the central station (that's assuming the alarm isn't tripped by the break in) Even if the phone lines were cut, the alarm still sounds.

I'll post the link when I find it.

[ErnestM]

Oh, and Kahr - they also own Auto-ordnance (Thompson, etc) and (as of late last year IIRC) Magnum Research. Kahr is a major player in the US firearms industry but built their reputation on high quality, smaller firearms in service calibres (see Kahr K9 - that was their first)

[ErnestM]

Corsair7 said:

ErnestM said:

I use the USPc 9mm for home defense.

I use a JRT.

Jack Russel Terrier. Noisy little blighter.

Yes. We have a yorkie as well. But he only barks until somebody gets close to him, then he rolls over on his back. Not exactly home defense material, him. I blame the wife for having him made into a eunuch...

[ErnestM]

dfen5 said:

I reckon go gangsta, innit..




If I had the option of a home defence weapon, it'd be an L1A1 SLR in 7.62 loaded with tracer, or at a push an AR-15. The only reason for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you shouldn't have left in the first place.

I agree with your description of pistols. However, all of my firearms except for the USPc and the Kahr (or PPS depending on season) are stored condition 4 for safety (the ammo for the carbines - including that huge beta-c is stored away from the firearms). The USPc is next to the bed, in a drawer safe and the Kahr is downstairs in a wall safe. They are both condition 1.

[ErnestM]

BruceV8 said:

Pesty

I would choose a short barrelled side by side (again if we were allowed) for the home ~ mainly for reasons of familiarity but also because its quiet

Questions about keeping a gun loaded or unloaded are irrelevant in the UK but a SS is either one or the other and is pretty quiet in changing states

As an aside in the UK I imagine that seeing two parralell muzzles would have a greater psychological effect than racking a pump gun ~ we all grew up with The Sweeney

Stoeger has you in mind...

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_...

[ErnestM]

For those thinking shotguns are "safer" for home defense...

http://fateoflegions.blogspot.com/2011/02/home-def...

Rule 2 applies to all home defense scenarios.

Edited to add - another good site for testing myths, etc...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm

Edited by ErnestM on Monday 14th February 01:32

[ErnestM]

WorAl said:

Want Going to get. Nope I was right, just want.

Edited by WorAl on Monday 14th February 00:37

Why the change of heart?

[ErnestM]

aeropilot said:

Interesting..... wonder if they are mixing n matching (MP5 + G56) to suit conditions..?

G56 would be better at more extended ranges in open country.

Wiki's list is pretty up to date IIRC...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_police_fir...

[ErnestM]

Thanks...

Also, IIRC, all UK police stuff is semi-auto is it not? That would include the G36 and even the mp-5s. I could be wrong here.

[ErnestM]

GaryST220 said:

Without sounding completely ignorant here, whats the benefit of the G56 over the MP5 (I know nothing about guns!)? I notice the G56 takes smaller rounds, is this to defeat body armour?

Iirc, all of the UK's police carbines have semi automatic triggers which seems a bit weak, that said its not as if they are going up against anything too frightening, as even the most organised of gangs can't get hold of anything more sophiscated than a double barreled shotgun that they nicked off an old farmer.

1. It's a G36 by H&K Clicky

2. The mp5 is a pistol calibre semi-automatic personal defense style weapon. They are smaller than traditional carbine style weapons which is what the G36 is. Due to their lower power pistol rounds, they have a limited effective combat range.

3. Body armour comes in several different configurations and ratings. Rifle and carbine rounds (yes, even the 5.56) can defeat most pistol rated armour at short to medium ranges. It's a matter of velocity combined with bullet shape and terminal ballistics.

4. Nothing week about semi-auto. In fact, unless supplying cover fire, it makes more sense to fire aimed semi auto fire in a combat situation (at least that is what I have been taught) For the average civilian, full-auto is just a novelty.

5. If people can smuggle illegal drugs into a country, they can smuggle illegal firearms into a country (probably using the same distribution channels) If the guns are going to be smuggled illegally, it would be a buyer's market as to what the configuration is. I hear Glocks are de rigueur with the criminal element in the UK (maybe due to the fact that ballistics matches for rounds fired by polygonal rifled barrels are problematic - or nonexistant if one is only set up to do traditional land and groove matches)

But as to your main question: The G36 fires a high velocity, small calibre combat carbine round while the MP5 fires pistol ammunition. Arguably, the G36 would be more accurate over a greater set of tactical situations. Special operators use MP5's and other submachine guns in close combat scenarios that are more "up close and personal". MP5's have also been issued as Personal Defense Weapons (PDW) for people such as Blackhawk pilots in case of emergencies.

[ErnestM]

rhinochopig said:

Our MoD police moved from MP5 to MP7 - chambered for 4.6mm due to concerns over modern body armour stopping 9mm. Very cool looking guns up close.

Interesting to note that both the MP7 (and the FN P90 in 5.7x28) was originally developed for rear echelon (supply, logistics) troops to use instead of a pistol. H&K also developed the UCP chambered for the same 4.6x30mm round. While H&K has had (arguably) better success with the MP7, FN have had better success with the FiveseveN pistol chambered in the competitive 5.7x28 round.

Some say it is because FN takes better pains to sell to the civilian market than HK do. A common complaint, in the US, about HK is that their attitude toward the civilian market is "You suck, and we hate you..." (that is a meme on most US based firearms discussion sites)

[ErnestM]

Mr Dave said:

Dear ErnestM and Jimbeaux and friends from the colonies.

Please stop buying all of the .45 ammunition because of Obama. It would be nice if any of the suppliers outside of the USA could get some. My dad has bought a new .45 and I havent gotten to shoot it yet due to no clubs in NI having any .45 ammunition to sell at all. You wont need to shoot him nor will he ban all guns.

Yours sincerely
Someone whos driven down to the gun club twice this month and not been able to shoot.

Funny you mention .45

http://www.federalpremium.com/pdf/45_Auto_warning....

Actually, the ammunition that has been hardest to get in the US (until lately) has been .380acp. What happened was that, because of military requirements for 9mm, most manufacturers tooled up for 9mm production (which shares components with .380 production). Then Obama was elected and everyone bought a 9mm. More production of 9mm. Then everyone discovered that their 9mm was inadequate for concealed carry and ran out and bought a mousegun (mousegun=.380 or smaller made for concealed carry). Well, because of the ramp up for 9mm production, .380 was caught VERY short. Until recently, retailers were actually importing european .380 and it was priced to the moon.

This year every gun enthusiast in the US will probably "rediscover" the .45acp due to the anniversary of the 1911 (1911-2011). I wouldn't look for the shortages to abate any time soon.

[ErnestM]

rhinochopig said:

Out of interest, what are the prices per round of the ammunition types in the US? Does it work out as an expensive hobby once you've bought the gun?

From one of my favourite online retailers "Cheaper than Dirt"

9mm: Range Ammo-Remington FMJ-$ 11.64 box of 50 Self Defense Ammo-Winchester Ranger SXT-$ 24.19 box of 50
.380: Range Ammo-$ 15.79 per 50 Self Defense-$ 14.79 per 25 round box (Remmy Golden Sabers)
.45: Range Ammo-$ 18.79 per 50 Self Defense-$ 32.67 per 50
5.7: Range/Self Defense Ammo: $ 19.65 per 50
5.56: Military Surplus M855: $ 479.79 per 1000 or $ 6.79 per box of 20 Brand Name: About $ 9.00 per 20

That just about fills my requirements. Usually when I restock 5.56 I go in on the purchase with a neighbor and we split a loose pack of th Military M855. I also have some special 77 grain loads for the SPR that cost around $ 15.00 per 20. I don't shoot those rapid fire, though as they are for long distance targeting.


ETA - forgot about the .22 long rifle. I usually buy them in "bricks" of 525 for about $18.00. I can sometimes find them on sale for as cheap as $12.00 per 525.

Edited by ErnestM on Tuesday 15th February 16:08

[ErnestM]

FaineantFreddy said:

http://www.lincs.police.uk/About-Us/Our-Organisati...

Just took a look at some of the licensing PDF's. Wow. Here was me thinking the form 4473 was bad...

[ErnestM]

Jam Rock said:

Always fancied a suppressed one of these bad boys....not for stopping power or anything, just cos they are cool!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_MK_II


maybe one day the draconian laws of the UK will be changed, but i wont be holding my breath!


Jam

I've shot a suppressed mk III. Most CO2 air pistols are louder (depending on ammo)

Compare on this youtube video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAwW7Imf0l0

[ErnestM]

Jam Rock said:

just out of curiosity mate, was it the gemtec version Mk 111?

SRT Arms.

[ErnestM]

Mojocvh said:

Saddle bum said:

Making up the rules as they go along, either as individuals or being a reflection of the O/C of the licensing office is the one single factor that brings the system into disrepute. Questioning their requirements can bring forth a st storm and vindictive behaviour.

Oh Yes. My biggest problem arose for not holding her hand as we poseyed round my new built house so she could "recommend" a location for cabinet. She got there, it was in a hidden location, affixed through the interior to the outside structure with the correct material expanding bolts etc,etc all in line with regs-NOT HAPPY FFS!!

This is the same reason that a lot of US States have gone from "May Issue" to "Shall Issue" for concealed weapons licenses. Basically, it removes the arbitrary nature from an official that may have certain personal leanings one way or the other toward the public with firearms. "Shall Issue" sets the criteria (usually instruction of some kind and a sign off from the instructor) and then issues the carry license. Under "May Issue" people were being denied for reasons as arbitrary as "cannot justify reason for concealed carry" or "training not sufficient". Interestingly, those that still operate under "May Issue" have the highest crime rates.

[ErnestM]

Love all of the Webley pistols. Very nice.

[ErnestM]

GixerK5 said:

Hi,
Some more interesting stuff. I got to fire these a couple of times a year or two ago. I'm sure you lot will be able to put names to weapons in no time at all!

Looks like mostly WWII era stuff. I see what looks like a 1903 Springfield and a Garand. Also see what looks like a Sturmgewehr 44 and an MP 40. Looks like a Sten in the background and also a BAR.

- - -

Speaking of older firearms - I went to a show this past weekend and saw a few Lee-Enfields and Webleys on offer. The Webleys (which all looked to be in 90%-95% condition were listing for $1200US per. The Lee-Enfields were going for about $800 (but were not in very good condition)

The only thing that I was remotely tempted by was a Romanian Dragunov (7.62x54) that was brand new/unfired, including PSO-1 scope, going for about $700US. I couldn't justify it to myself. The bigger gun show comes next month so I am saving my pennies.

[ErnestM]

rhinochopig said:

I'll start,

MP40, MP42, MG42 and the side mag MP I recognise but I can't remember the name of it. Think it was the assualt rifle issued to the German Paras IIRC.

Sturmgewehr (STG) 44. By the way, German manufacturer GSG are making a rimfire clone due out soon. It was at SHOT 2011.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/01/20/ati-...

ETA...

Woops - just realized that we may not be talking about the same weapon in the piccie...

Edited by ErnestM on Tuesday 22 February 13:48