Unpopular opinion - NHS is useless
Discussion
bigothunter said:
Some elements of the NHS work exceedingly well, others are awful. My recent experience has been generally favourable with a few exceptions.
We need to stop all this political pretence and put the NHS on a proper functional footing with managers held responsible. Same way successful business operate. And stop confusing profiteering with merely controlling budget, so that finances break even on the balance sheet.
How can you hold managers responsible when their budget and expectations are set by politicians that have little to no working knowledge of the system?We need to stop all this political pretence and put the NHS on a proper functional footing with managers held responsible. Same way successful business operate. And stop confusing profiteering with merely controlling budget, so that finances break even on the balance sheet.
If you were put in a job and given unreasonable expectations, what would you do?
Currently we have a solicitor as a Minister for Health.
Before that a banker, an economist, a language teacher and a civil servant.
coyft said:
Evanivitch said:
What's stopping that?
Perhaps, maybe, it's that people are happy to pay a few £100 to get ahead of the queue, but they're not prepared to pay a life changing amount of money for surgery or ongoing treatment that is available on the NHS?
We seem to be in constant fear of a two tier system.Perhaps, maybe, it's that people are happy to pay a few £100 to get ahead of the queue, but they're not prepared to pay a life changing amount of money for surgery or ongoing treatment that is available on the NHS?
If the private sector is prepared to operate an entirely separate system that does not offer an NHS fast track then that's a different matter entirely. People already do that, but often requires travelling abroad to do it.
Perhaps because the cost of such procedures in the UK is too much?
coyft said:
We need to stop being so precious about the NHS and let a fully fledged private system develop, perhaps that would then free up some resource for the NHS.
There’s already a fully fledged private system, and it’s recognised that without it the NHS would collapse overnight. Tens of thousands of operations a year are done ‘privately’.
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
Some elements of the NHS work exceedingly well, others are awful. My recent experience has been generally favourable with a few exceptions.
We need to stop all this political pretence and put the NHS on a proper functional footing with managers held responsible. Same way successful business operate. And stop confusing profiteering with merely controlling budget, so that finances break even on the balance sheet.
We need to stop all this political pretence and put the NHS on a proper functional footing with managers held responsible. Same way successful business operate. And stop confusing profiteering with merely controlling budget, so that finances break even on the balance sheet.
Evanivitch said:
How can you hold managers responsible when their budget and expectations are set by politicians that have little to no working knowledge of the system?
If you were put in a job and given unreasonable expectations, what would you do?
'proper functional footing' answers those concerns.If you were put in a job and given unreasonable expectations, what would you do?
Evanivitch said:
Currently we have a solicitor as a Minister for Health.
Before that a banker, an economist, a language teacher and a civil servant.
So just like big multinationals. Get smart and influence the system like professional managers do. No more excuses...Before that a banker, an economist, a language teacher and a civil servant.
joshcowin said:
And here is the problem with the NHS no one has a clue how it works, how it's supposed to work, if it recieves enough money or how efficiently that money is spent!
NHS has been amazing for my family, I am not talking walking sticks and hearing aids sorry but get some perspective, big life changing incidents and diagnosis dealt with on the whole very well. They seem to excel at cancer treatment especially in out local trust.
If you already have dementia, lack of hearing is a life changing incident. Your slow deterioration becomes a rapid decline due to the lack of stimulus, and your ability to make your own decisions is destroyed because no-one can explain what is happening to you. This soon makes the difference between independent living and off to the care home... which is quite a change in life.NHS has been amazing for my family, I am not talking walking sticks and hearing aids sorry but get some perspective, big life changing incidents and diagnosis dealt with on the whole very well. They seem to excel at cancer treatment especially in out local trust.
V6 Pushfit said:
There’s already a fully fledged private system, and it’s recognised that without it the NHS would collapse overnight.
Tens of thousands of operations a year are done ‘privately’.
Any breakdown on those operations? How many fall under non-essential surgery not covered by the NHS (i.e. cosmetic).Tens of thousands of operations a year are done ‘privately’.
BAAPS puts it at nearly 30,000 cosmetic surgery procedures a year.
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
Some elements of the NHS work exceedingly well, others are awful. My recent experience has been generally favourable with a few exceptions.
We need to stop all this political pretence and put the NHS on a proper functional footing with managers held responsible. Same way successful business operate. And stop confusing profiteering with merely controlling budget, so that finances break even on the balance sheet.
How can you hold managers responsible when their budget and expectations are set by politicians that have little to no working knowledge of the system?We need to stop all this political pretence and put the NHS on a proper functional footing with managers held responsible. Same way successful business operate. And stop confusing profiteering with merely controlling budget, so that finances break even on the balance sheet.
If you were put in a job and given unreasonable expectations, what would you do?
Currently we have a solicitor as a Minister for Health.
Before that a banker, an economist, a language teacher and a civil servant.
Largechris said:
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
Some elements of the NHS work exceedingly well, others are awful. My recent experience has been generally favourable with a few exceptions.
We need to stop all this political pretence and put the NHS on a proper functional footing with managers held responsible. Same way successful business operate. And stop confusing profiteering with merely controlling budget, so that finances break even on the balance sheet.
How can you hold managers responsible when their budget and expectations are set by politicians that have little to no working knowledge of the system?We need to stop all this political pretence and put the NHS on a proper functional footing with managers held responsible. Same way successful business operate. And stop confusing profiteering with merely controlling budget, so that finances break even on the balance sheet.
If you were put in a job and given unreasonable expectations, what would you do?
Currently we have a solicitor as a Minister for Health.
Before that a banker, an economist, a language teacher and a civil servant.
Wacky Racer said:
The NHS saved my wife's life twelve years ago (Ovarian cancer)
My son's leg ten years ago (Bad motorbike crash.....not his fault)
Had my gall bladder out two years ago, and knee arthroscopy ten years ago.
Yes, three weeks to see a doctor is not on, but overall I'm pretty satisfied.
And therein lies part (only part) of the problem. My son's leg ten years ago (Bad motorbike crash.....not his fault)
Had my gall bladder out two years ago, and knee arthroscopy ten years ago.
Yes, three weeks to see a doctor is not on, but overall I'm pretty satisfied.
You had great service, but you can find just as easily - very, very easily in fact - someone with the exact opposite of your experiences.
V6 Pushfit said:
I’m trying to book an appointment for an MRI review. So far it’s taken 12 days and probably 6 messages I’ve left and two emails. I missed one phone call from an unknown number yesterday - was it the hospital? No message, nothing - could have been anyone. So more calls to make I fear….
If 10% of this charade happened dealing with a company they would be out of business in a month.
But you are not a customer, so the "they'd go bust" is a non-argument. I'm afraid to say that wasting your time is the price of making sure that the medical staffs' time is used as efficiently as possible. Your time is nothing like as important as theirs. There's no shortage of patients, there's a big shortage of clinical staff.If 10% of this charade happened dealing with a company they would be out of business in a month.
V6 Pushfit said:
coyft said:
We need to stop being so precious about the NHS and let a fully fledged private system develop, perhaps that would then free up some resource for the NHS.
There’s already a fully fledged private system, and it’s recognised that without it the NHS would collapse overnight. Tens of thousands of operations a year are done ‘privately’.
Evanivitch said:
Largechris said:
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
Some elements of the NHS work exceedingly well, others are awful. My recent experience has been generally favourable with a few exceptions.
We need to stop all this political pretence and put the NHS on a proper functional footing with managers held responsible. Same way successful business operate. And stop confusing profiteering with merely controlling budget, so that finances break even on the balance sheet.
How can you hold managers responsible when their budget and expectations are set by politicians that have little to no working knowledge of the system?We need to stop all this political pretence and put the NHS on a proper functional footing with managers held responsible. Same way successful business operate. And stop confusing profiteering with merely controlling budget, so that finances break even on the balance sheet.
If you were put in a job and given unreasonable expectations, what would you do?
Currently we have a solicitor as a Minister for Health.
Before that a banker, an economist, a language teacher and a civil servant.
The Bury St Edmunds whistleblowing scandal I quoted the Guardian story.
The use of full time contractors at two or three times the cost of regular employees.
joshcowin said:
V6 Pushfit said:
A tough read but reality.
Please stop this stupid generalisation! Sad it happened to him but it is not like this for the majority! 4 weeks ago my father had a massive head trauma the ambulance arrived in sub 10minutes hospital within 30, one terrible patch where beds were not available and he was neglected for 17hours however once operated on and in a ward great care again. Again the poster who had the bleed on the brain I feel sorry for you and cannot imagine the stress and upset it put your family through the NHS clearly wasn't great but other trusts are vastly different.
In the last few years the NHS have been nothing but amazing for my family, East Kent Trust. Our GP is decent can get an appointment and they often deal with routine stuff over the phone or video call.
M1AGM said:
I had a brain haemorrhage last November. Lucky me.
I’m fit and healthy 40s (just), it happened in the gym!
The hospital is about 3 miles from the gym. The ambulance arrived after 30 minutes, ok we can see how that might happen and excuse the nhs for the delay.
By the time it arrived I was slumped in my car, with my training mate dealing with the paramedics. One paramedic basically told me to get out of the car or else she would have to get the fire brigade to chop the roof off my ‘expensive motor’ (Aston), and thought it was all a bit of a laugh. My mate took the other paramedic to one side and explained that his colleague’s comments were far from acceptable and for her to shut the f
k up. They then bundled me into the ambulance and took me to A&E. I was oblivious to all this and he told me about it weeks later.
At A&E I was left on a trolley in a corridor where my wife found me. She got hold of one of the ER consultants who immediately got me into one of their rooms and they started working on me, I have no idea how long I was on the trolley before I was found.
After a scan that showed I had a bleed on my brain it was decided to transfer me to Hull (from York) as their neuro care is much better. The consultant said it would be touch and go if I’d survive the journey. Wife couldnt come with me, we have 2 small children that needed picking up from school and no other family to help.
Thankfully I survived the transfer to Hull and was put in the ITU. Whilst lying there I heard the ward phone ring (it was now evening) and one of the nurses answered. Who? She said? No, nobody here by that name. It was my wife ringing to see if I had made it. After a few minutes the nurse realised the bloke they’d shoved into a room and hooked up to a load of machines before resuming their holiday chat was infact who my wife was looking for.
I proceeded to spend 8 days in ITU and 3 more on a ward. It was absolute hell on earth and there were many times when I wished to die there and then. I lost 2 stone in that time, I wasnt overweight when I went in, I came out skeletal. The neglect and lack of compassion was shocking by the nurses and auxiliary staff. I wont go into the detail because I could fill pages with the appalling care. Even the consultants said I would be better off at home, hospital was no place for recovery.
And it wasnt just me, I watched others being railroaded and ignored, fobbed off, ridiculed, absolutely disgusting.
I am thankful the nhs saved my life. It was the worst experience of my life, not because of the pain I was suffering from a brain haemorrhage, but because of the experience in hospital.
I came out of that place in fear of ever having to go back in, or worse, my children, my wife, ever having to go through that level of care. There’s no opt out if its critical, you’re in the nhs and theres fk all you can do about it.
My 3 month follow up with the consultant was another st show. Having waiting for the appointment to come through, nothing arrived. A couple of weeks after it was due I called the hospital only to find out that they’d had ‘IT issues’ and lots of people hadnt got their appointment letters. I was down as a no show, and subsequently would go on a waiting list which I was told would be many months. I complained to the patient advisory service and they sorted me out an appointment the following week. If I hadnt known (through a random conversation with someone about my problem) that such an avenue existed I’d probably still be waiting. (And to this day I have heard zero from my local GP about my wellbeing, probably expecting too much here).
My experience was that the doctors and consultants did a great job. The aux staff and nurses were on the whole a pile of crap. Probably unfair to generalise but some of those people really shouldn’t be in careers where compassion and care is key. I think getting rid of ward matrons/sisters/whatever has been a huge mistake and standards have gone downhill.
I appreciate this will not go down well with nhs evangelists, but the cold hard truth is the nhs is a disgrace and needs properly sorting out. I know it wont be and we will carry on making excuses for poor performance.
Just to add - I’m ok now, survived and getting back to normal. Had to work most of this st out for myself but back in the gym and doing normal things again.
That sounds horrible for you but I keep thinking about your wife having to pick the kids up not knowing if you were alive or dead. Good to hear you’re on the mend and good luck to you and family. I’m fit and healthy 40s (just), it happened in the gym!
The hospital is about 3 miles from the gym. The ambulance arrived after 30 minutes, ok we can see how that might happen and excuse the nhs for the delay.
By the time it arrived I was slumped in my car, with my training mate dealing with the paramedics. One paramedic basically told me to get out of the car or else she would have to get the fire brigade to chop the roof off my ‘expensive motor’ (Aston), and thought it was all a bit of a laugh. My mate took the other paramedic to one side and explained that his colleague’s comments were far from acceptable and for her to shut the f
k up. They then bundled me into the ambulance and took me to A&E. I was oblivious to all this and he told me about it weeks later.At A&E I was left on a trolley in a corridor where my wife found me. She got hold of one of the ER consultants who immediately got me into one of their rooms and they started working on me, I have no idea how long I was on the trolley before I was found.
After a scan that showed I had a bleed on my brain it was decided to transfer me to Hull (from York) as their neuro care is much better. The consultant said it would be touch and go if I’d survive the journey. Wife couldnt come with me, we have 2 small children that needed picking up from school and no other family to help.
Thankfully I survived the transfer to Hull and was put in the ITU. Whilst lying there I heard the ward phone ring (it was now evening) and one of the nurses answered. Who? She said? No, nobody here by that name. It was my wife ringing to see if I had made it. After a few minutes the nurse realised the bloke they’d shoved into a room and hooked up to a load of machines before resuming their holiday chat was infact who my wife was looking for.
I proceeded to spend 8 days in ITU and 3 more on a ward. It was absolute hell on earth and there were many times when I wished to die there and then. I lost 2 stone in that time, I wasnt overweight when I went in, I came out skeletal. The neglect and lack of compassion was shocking by the nurses and auxiliary staff. I wont go into the detail because I could fill pages with the appalling care. Even the consultants said I would be better off at home, hospital was no place for recovery.
And it wasnt just me, I watched others being railroaded and ignored, fobbed off, ridiculed, absolutely disgusting.
I am thankful the nhs saved my life. It was the worst experience of my life, not because of the pain I was suffering from a brain haemorrhage, but because of the experience in hospital.
I came out of that place in fear of ever having to go back in, or worse, my children, my wife, ever having to go through that level of care. There’s no opt out if its critical, you’re in the nhs and theres f
k all you can do about it.My 3 month follow up with the consultant was another s
t show. Having waiting for the appointment to come through, nothing arrived. A couple of weeks after it was due I called the hospital only to find out that they’d had ‘IT issues’ and lots of people hadnt got their appointment letters. I was down as a no show, and subsequently would go on a waiting list which I was told would be many months. I complained to the patient advisory service and they sorted me out an appointment the following week. If I hadnt known (through a random conversation with someone about my problem) that such an avenue existed I’d probably still be waiting. (And to this day I have heard zero from my local GP about my wellbeing, probably expecting too much here).My experience was that the doctors and consultants did a great job. The aux staff and nurses were on the whole a pile of crap. Probably unfair to generalise but some of those people really shouldn’t be in careers where compassion and care is key. I think getting rid of ward matrons/sisters/whatever has been a huge mistake and standards have gone downhill.
I appreciate this will not go down well with nhs evangelists, but the cold hard truth is the nhs is a disgrace and needs properly sorting out. I know it wont be and we will carry on making excuses for poor performance.
Just to add - I’m ok now, survived and getting back to normal. Had to work most of this s
t out for myself but back in the gym and doing normal things again.Largechris said:
I will try again
The Bury St Edmunds whistleblowing scandal I quoted the Guardian story.
The use of full time contractors at two or three times the cost of regular employees.
Unsurprising that an Engineer of your "calibre" considers such limited data points and anecdotal evidence to be representative of the NHS.The Bury St Edmunds whistleblowing scandal I quoted the Guardian story.
The use of full time contractors at two or three times the cost of regular employees.
Edited by Evanivitch on Wednesday 20th July 09:04
Evanivitch said:
Unsurprising that an Engineer of you "calibre" considers such limited data points and anecdotal evidence to be representative of the NHS.
Exactly.We pay less on healthcare (as a percentage of GDP, or per capita) than most comparable countries. And we have fewer doctors and fewer beds per capita.
Prior to the pandemic the system (NHS and social care) was creaking, and oddly enough it's now stretched far beyond capacity.
If we shut down the NHS for a generation or so, whilst we fixed it and built it's efficient replacement, what are all of us going to do for healthcare in the meantime?
So that idea is a non starter.
If we want changes during our lifetime, we are going to have to elect politicians that will make tough choices with the NHS, and we all know that isn't going to happen either. Another non starter.
What about a 2 tier system that is totally separate, with the NHS being free, and a private arm from primary care onwards? You'd probably need an insurance vehicle to fund that (aka the US), but this seems unpalatable to many, as the people with money will get treated quicker than those on the NHS, and that will cause resentment.
What we are left with are smaller, tougher choices if we want anything to be better during our lifetimes. Spending resources getting the nation healthier might reduce the obesity/diabetes bill, and having a separate 'queue' for alcohol related injuries might free up A&E resources too. Separating out the national insurance tax bill for ring fenced 'elder care' might be able to direct money where it's needed too and free up NHS resources that way too.
So that idea is a non starter.
If we want changes during our lifetime, we are going to have to elect politicians that will make tough choices with the NHS, and we all know that isn't going to happen either. Another non starter.
What about a 2 tier system that is totally separate, with the NHS being free, and a private arm from primary care onwards? You'd probably need an insurance vehicle to fund that (aka the US), but this seems unpalatable to many, as the people with money will get treated quicker than those on the NHS, and that will cause resentment.
What we are left with are smaller, tougher choices if we want anything to be better during our lifetimes. Spending resources getting the nation healthier might reduce the obesity/diabetes bill, and having a separate 'queue' for alcohol related injuries might free up A&E resources too. Separating out the national insurance tax bill for ring fenced 'elder care' might be able to direct money where it's needed too and free up NHS resources that way too.
Evanivitch said:
Any breakdown on those operations? How many fall under non-essential surgery not covered by the NHS (i.e. cosmetic).
BAAPS puts it at nearly 30,000 cosmetic surgery procedures a year.
Tens of thousands of hip/knee/heart/spine. I can count at least 50 theatres in the hospitals I deal with through work that run 6 days a week continuously. No cosmetic at all. BAAPS puts it at nearly 30,000 cosmetic surgery procedures a year.
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