MCL tear - anyone had it?
Discussion
z4chris99 said:
cheers will that's a good help. unfortunately I'm NHS and I have no idea who my doctor is.
is it worth having physio at this stage?
A) find out who your Consultant is, on your next visit, you will want to know his name.is it worth having physio at this stage?
B) NHS physio yes, there's plenty you can do even with the brace on: icing, static quads, active range of movement etc
Edited by The_Doc on Wednesday 7th March 19:05
Playing rugby last October I fractured fibula and tiblian plateu, sprained acl and small tear to medial meniscus. Leg same size and colour the first few weeks. Leg occasionally still giving way but consultant thinks this is due to muscle wastage rather than tear. Leg is about half size of other but as others said it's v hard to fit training in around work. Especially as leg work outs used to involve running but now have to just do leg presses. Still limping and could not even think about even jogging a couple of paces. Not got full range of movement really and leg feels itll give way. Doubt I'll be able to jog for another year. It's not right at all TBH but hoping a harder exercise regime will help.
Good luck
Good luck
Eh up.
Don't want to be a 'doom monger' here but I'll give you a run - down of my MCL / ACL damage.
Motorcycle crash in 1992. Very low speed accident actually - off road on a trail bike. Bike went over, unfortunately my foot got trapped under the bike, sticking 'outwards', and I fell off to the right, and hence my body rotated around my knee joint the other way. Result - knackered MCL and partly damaged ACL.
Hospital didn't do a great job at diagnosis either - sent me home telling me it was a 'sprain.' After a few phone calls and visits to my Doc, became clear it was much worse. Anyway, R&R was good old 'R.I.C.E' for a week or two. Swelling went down, started to walk on the joint but it was unstable and wanted to keep 'folding' inwards.
Took a couple of years before it had recovered and settled down to anything approaching a normal knee joint, but at the time I was just a normal person, didn't play any sport, and didn't do much Physio. I reckon if I had been more sporty at the time I probably could have rehabilitated the joint much quicker.
Anyway, fast forward from 1992 to 1998. I decide I am going to start racing British National Superbikes the following year, and so have to lose a few stone and get properly fit. I start gently, and after about 18 months I am down to 12 stone (6ft. 2 inches tall) and running regularly - 3 to 4 times a week.
I get so fit from the training / running that I enjoy, that I am soon entering one or two local 10k road races - doing a few fairly respectable (for my wieght and age anyway) 40 min finishes.
Continue running / training / bike racing until 2005. Knee gives varying levels of grief over the years - from no grief at all, to sometimes randomly swelling up and hurting for a few days, then going down again, in a cycle of about 4 or 5 months each time.
Towards the end of my racing career, the knee starts to be more and more of a problem pain wise - most race tracks are 'clockwise' circuits, and require bike racers to hang off the bike's right hand side to go round corners - so your knee is bent about as far as it will go with most of your wieght on it. I started to find that after 10 minutes of that, it would ache terribly and cause me to lose concentration in races.
Got so bad, it made me give up racing (along with financial reasons)
Carry on running on and off, but not so much as before. Knee now beginning to 'lock up' and 'grate' on runs.
Back to Docs - diagnosed as bits of loose cartilage floating round in the joint.
So 2007 - first Arthroscopy operation to remove debris from the joint.
Works well, minimal recovery, back to training, knee feeling good.
Then fast forward to 2009. Out running one day - knee just locks solid, with no warning. Lots of pain.
Diagnosis - more debris and abnormal growth. So beginning of 2010 - second Arthroscopy operation.
Post - op, knee doesn't feel much better. Sore, swollen and painful for weeks after.
Went back for my post - op discussion with the consultant, and the news is not good. Showing me the photos from inside the joint - seems that at the bottom of my femur, my body grew a strange 'horn' shaped bit of bone as a response to the ongoing injury. They trimmed that off, which was no big deal, but the bad news was that as the joint has not been a stable, normal joint since the original injury, as I have gone running / training on the joint, it has been moving 'laterally' as well as forwards / backwards as it would nromally do, and this has caused accelerated wear to the articular cartilage at the bottom of my femur.
This is the hard, shiny, but thin layer of load bearing joint that rubs back and forth over the meniscus cartilage between the knee joints. It's kinda like tooth enamel - very hard wearing, but once it's gone - it's gone.
Mine is very worn becasue of the MCL damage I suffered back in 1992.
There is no way of replacing or renewing that cartilage - except maybe some very new, pioneering, expensive and nowhere near guaranteed succesful surgery involving stem cell implants. It HAS worked to a fashion on some patients - but it comes with a strict 'you might be disappointed' warning, and is basically a gamble that will cot you somewhere around 20 grand. Not something I can even begin to contemplate paying for - especially as it might be a waste of time!
So basically, the upshot of all that is the Consultant told me, at 38 years old, my running days are behind me, and that if I continue to run, I would be back for a knee replacement operation within 5 years. Which according to him, I really 'do not want at my age.' And having done a bit of research - he is right there
So. I can't run - at all - or indeed do any kind of sports that include any kind of running or load on the joint.
I am allowed to do 'some moderate cycling' and swimming.
The joint has good days and bad days - sometimes I forget about the injury completely, but I would say for about two thirds of the time, I am aware of a continuous dull ache in the knee - which to be fair, I am also good at ignoring and not noticing - but mostly, if I do stop and think about my knee - there is the ache, deep in the joint. Worse still on a cold day.
I fecking HATE swimming, so all I do is a bit of walking - which I try to do on soft / grassy surfaces, and lots of cycling. Some days I can cycle miles with no probs, other days I go out and it gives me grief from the word go - when it does, I know I'm not in for a long session, and sure enough, after a few miles, I have to head home.
No idea how long it will last in it's present state - I am obviously priming myself for the inevitable knee replacement op at some time in the future. I reckon it will come up before I retire at least!
I swallow tons of Glucosamine / Chondroitin supplements that are supposed to help cartilage - but it's all a bit unproven and 'alternative medicine', so who knows if it helps. But the consultant didn't dismiss it out of hand either - he endorsed taking it as it has been seen to help a bit in some circumstances.
So anyway - what am I trying to say in this post?
Basically, if you have injured those ligaments in your knee - then from now on, it will always be a little unstable, so please do everything you can to look after the joint, and don't even think about going running!
hope this helps a bit
Don't want to be a 'doom monger' here but I'll give you a run - down of my MCL / ACL damage.
Motorcycle crash in 1992. Very low speed accident actually - off road on a trail bike. Bike went over, unfortunately my foot got trapped under the bike, sticking 'outwards', and I fell off to the right, and hence my body rotated around my knee joint the other way. Result - knackered MCL and partly damaged ACL.
Hospital didn't do a great job at diagnosis either - sent me home telling me it was a 'sprain.' After a few phone calls and visits to my Doc, became clear it was much worse. Anyway, R&R was good old 'R.I.C.E' for a week or two. Swelling went down, started to walk on the joint but it was unstable and wanted to keep 'folding' inwards.
Took a couple of years before it had recovered and settled down to anything approaching a normal knee joint, but at the time I was just a normal person, didn't play any sport, and didn't do much Physio. I reckon if I had been more sporty at the time I probably could have rehabilitated the joint much quicker.
Anyway, fast forward from 1992 to 1998. I decide I am going to start racing British National Superbikes the following year, and so have to lose a few stone and get properly fit. I start gently, and after about 18 months I am down to 12 stone (6ft. 2 inches tall) and running regularly - 3 to 4 times a week.
I get so fit from the training / running that I enjoy, that I am soon entering one or two local 10k road races - doing a few fairly respectable (for my wieght and age anyway) 40 min finishes.
Continue running / training / bike racing until 2005. Knee gives varying levels of grief over the years - from no grief at all, to sometimes randomly swelling up and hurting for a few days, then going down again, in a cycle of about 4 or 5 months each time.
Towards the end of my racing career, the knee starts to be more and more of a problem pain wise - most race tracks are 'clockwise' circuits, and require bike racers to hang off the bike's right hand side to go round corners - so your knee is bent about as far as it will go with most of your wieght on it. I started to find that after 10 minutes of that, it would ache terribly and cause me to lose concentration in races.
Got so bad, it made me give up racing (along with financial reasons)
Carry on running on and off, but not so much as before. Knee now beginning to 'lock up' and 'grate' on runs.
Back to Docs - diagnosed as bits of loose cartilage floating round in the joint.
So 2007 - first Arthroscopy operation to remove debris from the joint.
Works well, minimal recovery, back to training, knee feeling good.
Then fast forward to 2009. Out running one day - knee just locks solid, with no warning. Lots of pain.
Diagnosis - more debris and abnormal growth. So beginning of 2010 - second Arthroscopy operation.
Post - op, knee doesn't feel much better. Sore, swollen and painful for weeks after.
Went back for my post - op discussion with the consultant, and the news is not good. Showing me the photos from inside the joint - seems that at the bottom of my femur, my body grew a strange 'horn' shaped bit of bone as a response to the ongoing injury. They trimmed that off, which was no big deal, but the bad news was that as the joint has not been a stable, normal joint since the original injury, as I have gone running / training on the joint, it has been moving 'laterally' as well as forwards / backwards as it would nromally do, and this has caused accelerated wear to the articular cartilage at the bottom of my femur.
This is the hard, shiny, but thin layer of load bearing joint that rubs back and forth over the meniscus cartilage between the knee joints. It's kinda like tooth enamel - very hard wearing, but once it's gone - it's gone.
Mine is very worn becasue of the MCL damage I suffered back in 1992.
There is no way of replacing or renewing that cartilage - except maybe some very new, pioneering, expensive and nowhere near guaranteed succesful surgery involving stem cell implants. It HAS worked to a fashion on some patients - but it comes with a strict 'you might be disappointed' warning, and is basically a gamble that will cot you somewhere around 20 grand. Not something I can even begin to contemplate paying for - especially as it might be a waste of time!
So basically, the upshot of all that is the Consultant told me, at 38 years old, my running days are behind me, and that if I continue to run, I would be back for a knee replacement operation within 5 years. Which according to him, I really 'do not want at my age.' And having done a bit of research - he is right there
So. I can't run - at all - or indeed do any kind of sports that include any kind of running or load on the joint.
I am allowed to do 'some moderate cycling' and swimming.
The joint has good days and bad days - sometimes I forget about the injury completely, but I would say for about two thirds of the time, I am aware of a continuous dull ache in the knee - which to be fair, I am also good at ignoring and not noticing - but mostly, if I do stop and think about my knee - there is the ache, deep in the joint. Worse still on a cold day.
I fecking HATE swimming, so all I do is a bit of walking - which I try to do on soft / grassy surfaces, and lots of cycling. Some days I can cycle miles with no probs, other days I go out and it gives me grief from the word go - when it does, I know I'm not in for a long session, and sure enough, after a few miles, I have to head home.
No idea how long it will last in it's present state - I am obviously priming myself for the inevitable knee replacement op at some time in the future. I reckon it will come up before I retire at least!
I swallow tons of Glucosamine / Chondroitin supplements that are supposed to help cartilage - but it's all a bit unproven and 'alternative medicine', so who knows if it helps. But the consultant didn't dismiss it out of hand either - he endorsed taking it as it has been seen to help a bit in some circumstances.
So anyway - what am I trying to say in this post?
Basically, if you have injured those ligaments in your knee - then from now on, it will always be a little unstable, so please do everything you can to look after the joint, and don't even think about going running!
hope this helps a bit
That run-down Ray L-Y is very imformative, but I would like to give the OP a bit of hope in the fact he's getting to a diagnosis nice and quickly, and by the sound of that scanned letter his consultant knows the knee bone from the hip bone.
ACL/MCL/Meniscus is still eminantly treatable if recognised early. "Terrible Triad" is an old-ish term before the days of established sports surgery.
Brace the MCL, reconstruct any meniscal tears early, rehab the knee and perform ACL reconstruction when movement returns to the knee and the pain goes, at around 2-4 months.
Will
(2 ACLs this week)
ACL/MCL/Meniscus is still eminantly treatable if recognised early. "Terrible Triad" is an old-ish term before the days of established sports surgery.
Brace the MCL, reconstruct any meniscal tears early, rehab the knee and perform ACL reconstruction when movement returns to the knee and the pain goes, at around 2-4 months.
Will
(2 ACLs this week)
z4chris99 said:
the old man has said I can go private if I need surgery, suppose I find that out after my results from today's MRI.
who are the best London guys for rugby/sports reconstruction?
Jonathan Webb (ex-England fullback from the early 90s) was highly rated by the guy who did some meniscus repair work on my knee a few years ago, He used to work in London on a visiting basis, I think a PHer works(or used to work) with him. I'll search back to see if I can find itwho are the best London guys for rugby/sports reconstruction?
wsurfa said:
Jonathan Webb (ex-England fullback from the early 90s) was highly rated by the guy who did some meniscus repair work on my knee a few years ago, He used to work in London on a visiting basis, I think a PHer works(or used to work) with him. I'll search back to see if I can find it
Mrs Pitstop used to work with him back in 2009 when there was another thread on Knee surgery.However since there is a recommendation from a 'Mr' above he'd know best
The_Doc said:
Fares Haddad and Andy Williams
I will second Prof Fares Haddad as a patient, not only is he one of the top knee surgeons with a first class reputation but a very nice guy. I have had 6 knee ops with him so far and I have some more to look forward too in the near future, I would not use anyone else. Saying this I have heard very good things about Mr Andy Williams but not had any dealings. after chatting to a few people Andrew Williams name is popping up alot. How would I go about changing from NHS to private? I have had two MRI's but obviously don't have the scans myself etc. or would I have more done privately?
do I just call up NHS say I'm going private? then call the new private guy?
do I just call up NHS say I'm going private? then call the new private guy?
z4chris99 said:
after chatting to a few people Andrew Williams name is popping up alot. How would I go about changing from NHS to private? I have had two MRI's but obviously don't have the scans myself etc. or would I have more done privately?
do I just call up NHS say I'm going private? then call the new private guy?
You have to be referred. Ring your private consultant find out his contact details etc. Then see your GP or the consultant who has been dealing with you so far. Ask them to refer you to the new guy. This will involve sending all the details / scans etc. do I just call up NHS say I'm going private? then call the new private guy?
Would be best to have all MRI's first before private as they are expensive. But you may have to wait a while.
Im currently recovering from a MCL tear, not sure to what degree as i wasnt given a grading and i have no brace
i was playing indoor 5 aside, didnt spot the puddle of water, and as i push of with my left leg sideways, my left leg slipped.as i did the splits my right knee kinked
i knew i was in pain, but it was more my hip and groin pain at the time, managed to drive myself home. but when i woke in the morning i couldnt lift my leg, knee was sore couldnt bend it etc, if i laid flat on my back and tried to lift my leg it hurt, so lift to A&E . They said wait for swelling to go down etc, said could be cartlidge or ligament damage maybe both
said RICE etc, and booked into trauma clinic 2 1/2 weeks later
first 4/5 days i couldnt walk, and in a morning my knee was stiff from lack of moving it
gradually as i did more with it the morning stiffness eased lol!
but then i would do things without realising it, like pushing the bin with my foot, which got the wince etc
walking upstairs i adopted the swinging straight leg lol, and down steps was a bit of a hop
when i went to trauma clinic, i was much improved, as bruising came out about 3/4 days later and had cleared just about by the trauma clinic appointment.
doctor said cartlidge was fine etc, i had good range of movement in my knee, although still tender to pressure in one direction, which obviously stretched the tendon. said it would be better in a couple of weeks
problem is im a hands on building company owner, no way am i lugging cement mixers round etc, as ive taken the kids to the park to watch them play football
and if i even tap the ball i get the pain in my knee
its nearly 5 weeks, i dont feel a weakness in my knee, but if i rub it in a particular area i still can feel it. i have not been on site since and i dont think i will be able to for what feels like ages
want to be back playing football etc, but dont want to risk it
might go back to doctors, to get them updated, as im seeing a solicotor, as i feel their shouldnt have been any water on an indoor sports hall.
wanted to see if it got better first, but i dont think i will be doing anything to manual for a while
after reading other posts about long term damage, due to using the knee as it feels ok, and then finding out the knees range of motion isnt right so wear has been caused, im a little concerned.
your bruising was worse than mine, so good luck with it
oh and ive put on 7 punds lol, sitting around is not good for you
i was playing indoor 5 aside, didnt spot the puddle of water, and as i push of with my left leg sideways, my left leg slipped.as i did the splits my right knee kinked
i knew i was in pain, but it was more my hip and groin pain at the time, managed to drive myself home. but when i woke in the morning i couldnt lift my leg, knee was sore couldnt bend it etc, if i laid flat on my back and tried to lift my leg it hurt, so lift to A&E . They said wait for swelling to go down etc, said could be cartlidge or ligament damage maybe both
said RICE etc, and booked into trauma clinic 2 1/2 weeks later
first 4/5 days i couldnt walk, and in a morning my knee was stiff from lack of moving it
gradually as i did more with it the morning stiffness eased lol!
but then i would do things without realising it, like pushing the bin with my foot, which got the wince etc
walking upstairs i adopted the swinging straight leg lol, and down steps was a bit of a hop
when i went to trauma clinic, i was much improved, as bruising came out about 3/4 days later and had cleared just about by the trauma clinic appointment.
doctor said cartlidge was fine etc, i had good range of movement in my knee, although still tender to pressure in one direction, which obviously stretched the tendon. said it would be better in a couple of weeks
problem is im a hands on building company owner, no way am i lugging cement mixers round etc, as ive taken the kids to the park to watch them play football
and if i even tap the ball i get the pain in my knee
its nearly 5 weeks, i dont feel a weakness in my knee, but if i rub it in a particular area i still can feel it. i have not been on site since and i dont think i will be able to for what feels like ages
want to be back playing football etc, but dont want to risk it
might go back to doctors, to get them updated, as im seeing a solicotor, as i feel their shouldnt have been any water on an indoor sports hall.
wanted to see if it got better first, but i dont think i will be doing anything to manual for a while
after reading other posts about long term damage, due to using the knee as it feels ok, and then finding out the knees range of motion isnt right so wear has been caused, im a little concerned.
your bruising was worse than mine, so good luck with it
oh and ive put on 7 punds lol, sitting around is not good for you
Edited by mikebradford on Sunday 25th March 19:00
Edited by mikebradford on Sunday 25th March 19:01
torqueofthedevil said:
You have to be referred. Ring your private consultant find out his contact details etc. Then see your GP or the consultant who has been dealing with you so far. Ask them to refer you to the new guy. This will involve sending all the details / scans etc.
Would be best to have all MRI's first before private as they are expensive. But you may have to wait a while.
You can self refer to most of these guys, ring their private secretary and make an appointment, I do agree on getting scans done in the NHS if possible though.. But if you're insured then get the green light from the insurer, then make contact..Would be best to have all MRI's first before private as they are expensive. But you may have to wait a while.
Andy Williams: http://www.thewellingtonkneeunit.com/team.asp#n8
Appointments: 020 7483 5450
Consultant secretary: Virginia.Seevaratnam@hcahealthcare.co.uk
Consulting sessions held at: The Wellington Hospital, The Lister Hospital
Fares: www.fareshaddad.com
The Princess Grace Hospital
42-52 Nottingham Place
London
or
The Wellington Hospital
Wellington Place
London
NW8 9LE
Email: appointments@uk-medsecs.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)207 9356083
The_Doc said:
z4chris99 said:
Andy Williams is booked up and not taking on new patients.
kerrrrrrrr chiiiiiiiiiiiiingggggggg!!!!booked up private practice !!!
$$$
Faras looks good too,
Emailed my NHS guy to ask if he had seen the results, as waitint till the 16 april is a bit long.
He said he had seen them but they had not been formally reported by the radio guys, he says ruptured ACL, f
ked MCL and little bit miniscus damage. Would recommend reconstructive surgery, which he doesnt do but his matey Paul Cuplan does on the NHS.
Still thinking of going to Fares Haddah though.
He said he had seen them but they had not been formally reported by the radio guys, he says ruptured ACL, f
ked MCL and little bit miniscus damage. Would recommend reconstructive surgery, which he doesnt do but his matey Paul Cuplan does on the NHS. Still thinking of going to Fares Haddah though.
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