Squats

[Driller]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the phrases in bold above

[didelydoo]

Bench isn't good for your shoulders if done incorrectly, nor deadlift for the back etc etc. If performing a movement correctly is causing pain then one should a)stop doing it b)sort out the problem c)do the movement properly.

For the main I think everyone's concerns are misplaced anyway- most people don't do enough squatting to give them selves knee issues anyway.

[Halb]

Driller said:

Without trying to sound argumentative (I know when I'm out of my league Mr H!) logic would suggest therefore that by avoiding this 130 degree zone you could protect the articulatory surfaces of your knees.

The article states there is little evidence to show a cause-effect relationship but is this due to a lack of study? Can we find any studies on this?

That makes me sound like a right argumentative tt! But no worries, as someone above said, do what you feel is good for you, and never do anything that hurts you.
I went looking for knee issues with perhaps the most well known group of deep squatters, the Olympic Weightlifters whom I alluded to in my previous post. Lots of discussions on meniscus tears and the like.
Can You Hurt Your Knees Olympic Lifting?
Yes, but you have a lot less risk than if you play most other sports. According to unpublished data (yes, I know not fair to use it) the incidence of knee injury was much lower, and knee function higher in competitors at the Olympic trials in weightlifting when compared to NFL, NHL, NBA and MMA athletes.
I vividly remember standing next to an Orthopedic Surgeon watching a US Nationals where he said half amazed “I was taught that they can’t do this without injury.” He watched the deep knee flexion and talked about how in med school he was taught how dangerous this was and that the incidence of meniscal injury should be off the charts. But it’s not. In discussing with some internationally recognized biomechanists, they all agreed there wasn’t a very good basis for the teaching he received.
http://artofcoachingspeed.com/2010/12/01/olympic-l...

This is a good one as well.
http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Squats.html
There is a bit on the Full (Deep) Squat.

didelydoo said:

Going all the way down, even bouncing out of the hole, is fine- provided you have the flexibility to do it. I've read that stopping above parallel can have a shearing effect on the knees, but can't remember where.

I have read the same.
I went looking for 'shearing' and found this article.
http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/squat2.htm
It contradicts some of the above and combines Olympic squats and BB squats as the same. In the first article I posted the effect on the quads beyond parallel was called superfluousness. The above article says OS are favoured by BBers because of the effect on the quads. He says the hip is at a right angle. It's not very well written I think.

Edited by Halb on Sunday 19th August 10:27

[Shinobi]

Nobody knows. This will be debated again next month... Basically just do what works for you. Everyone is different.

[Driller]

Halb said:

Driller][b said:

Without trying to sound argumentative (I know when I'm out of my league Mr H!)

That makes me sound like a right argumentative tt! But no worries, as someone above said, do what you feel is good for you, and never do anything that hurts you.

Yeah sorry about that, I meant to say out of your league as far as knowledge on bodybuilding goes but I guess you worked that out at the end

Halb said:

I went looking for knee issues with perhaps the most well known group of deep squatters, the Olympic Weightlifters whom I alluded to in my previous post. Lots of discussions on meniscus tears and the like.
Can You Hurt Your Knees Olympic Lifting?
Yes, but you have a lot less risk than if you play most other sports. According to unpublished data (yes, I know not fair to use it) the incidence of knee injury was much lower, and knee function higher in competitors at the Olympic trials in weightlifting when compared to NFL, NHL, NBA and MMA athletes.

Lots of unsupported "hearsay" in these articles and unpublished, so unvetted, data.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, the context here is home gym or at least amateur gym training. These articles are making comparisons with other sports at a pro level.

What we need is a study of a group of 3000+ individuals including those squatting deep, those squatting parallel and a control group all followed over a 20 year time span with checks on knee joint health.

Is that asking to much?

Edited because I can't spell "hearsay"

Edited by Driller on Sunday 19th August 15:10

[MacGee]

sounds reasonable to me!...funding please!

[Pvapour]

didelydoo said:

Bench isn't good for your shoulders if done incorrectly, nor deadlift for the back etc etc. If performing a movement correctly is causing pain then one should a)stop doing it b)sort out the problem c)do the movement properly.

For the main I think everyone's concerns are misplaced anyway- most people don't do enough squatting to give them selves knee issues anyway.

how's your glute/back problem now DD?

[didelydoo]

Pvapour said:

how's your glute/back problem now DD?

Wondered if that would come up On the mend now I've started squatting deeper...

Edit to add- low bar powerlifting style squats to just below parallel have been the main factor in my injury, had I worked on depth/flexibility, I think I could have avoided it.

My knees are fine however

Edited by didelydoo on Monday 20th August 21:51

[Halb]

didelydoo said:

On the mend now I've started squatting deeper...

[Driller]