Abestos in ceiling??
Discussion
Last night I finally got round to removing an area of water damage from the celing that occurred a couple of months ago due to a small water leak. Hoovered up, showered, and went out for a pint.
My mate then lets me know that some textured ceilings have asbestos in them...brilliant.
I've read on the web that it's most likely white asbestos and this is less of a risk than the other types.
Does anyone have any expertise in this area? What is the likelihood of there being asbestos present and is there a way I can identify it? Bit late I know...
My mate then lets me know that some textured ceilings have asbestos in them...brilliant.
I've read on the web that it's most likely white asbestos and this is less of a risk than the other types.
Does anyone have any expertise in this area? What is the likelihood of there being asbestos present and is there a way I can identify it? Bit late I know...
What sort of ceiling is it?
Maybe plasterboard with "Artex" type of textured coating.
If so, Artex does contain a small amount of Asbestos. However, as it was wet it is most probably OK as it's airborne fibres that cause the problem
http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/essentials/coatings...
Lots here.
Maybe plasterboard with "Artex" type of textured coating.
If so, Artex does contain a small amount of Asbestos. However, as it was wet it is most probably OK as it's airborne fibres that cause the problem
http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/essentials/coatings...
Lots here.
55palfers said:
What sort of ceiling is it?
Maybe plasterboard with "Artex" type of textured coating.
If so, Artex does contain a small amount of Asbestos. However, as it was wet it is most probably OK as it's airborne fibres that cause the problem
http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/essentials/coatings...
Lots here.
Thanks.Maybe plasterboard with "Artex" type of textured coating.
If so, Artex does contain a small amount of Asbestos. However, as it was wet it is most probably OK as it's airborne fibres that cause the problem
http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/essentials/coatings...
Lots here.
It was dry when I scraped it off unfortunately
It's about a 1-2mm thick plastery Artex-looking texture with what looked like a fibreglass sheet underneath.
I noticed one of the bits had a glassy-looking seam in it but I haven't got a clue if that's significant or not.
The house was built in '88 so it's in the period where asbestos was recognised as being dangerous but wasn't phased out fully.
You should be ok.
Asbestos was not widely used in Artex type textured coatings from 1984 onwards.
There wasn't a legal banning of the use of Chrysotile (White) asbestos until November 1999 but many companies voluntarily stopped using it from the mid 80's.
My company checks houses for asbestos (plus other buildings) and we have never found anything but Chrysotile in textured coatings. Whilst it's true that all types of asbestos can cause cancer, it's the Amosite (Brown) and Crocidolite (Blue) that are the really problematic ones. It's mostly down to the fibres, the blue and brown are like needles with barbs and they can get down deep inside your lungs. The white fibres are curly and therefore harder to get stuck.
The main cause of death at the moment is from Mesothelioma, that is usually from the blue and brown. Asbestosis was once a big killer and was caused by all 3 types but mainly white and usually through a long and/or large exposure. Asbestosis deaths are now declining (asbestos factories being the usual culprits)
Although one microscopic fibre can eventually kill you, the type and concentrations within Artex are such that the risk is much much lower. In fact the HSE removed Artex from being a 'licensed company only' removal to a 'any competent contractor' removal due to the fact that it wasn't such a problem.
I hope that puts your mind at rest a little
Asbestos was not widely used in Artex type textured coatings from 1984 onwards.
There wasn't a legal banning of the use of Chrysotile (White) asbestos until November 1999 but many companies voluntarily stopped using it from the mid 80's.
My company checks houses for asbestos (plus other buildings) and we have never found anything but Chrysotile in textured coatings. Whilst it's true that all types of asbestos can cause cancer, it's the Amosite (Brown) and Crocidolite (Blue) that are the really problematic ones. It's mostly down to the fibres, the blue and brown are like needles with barbs and they can get down deep inside your lungs. The white fibres are curly and therefore harder to get stuck.
The main cause of death at the moment is from Mesothelioma, that is usually from the blue and brown. Asbestosis was once a big killer and was caused by all 3 types but mainly white and usually through a long and/or large exposure. Asbestosis deaths are now declining (asbestos factories being the usual culprits)
Although one microscopic fibre can eventually kill you, the type and concentrations within Artex are such that the risk is much much lower. In fact the HSE removed Artex from being a 'licensed company only' removal to a 'any competent contractor' removal due to the fact that it wasn't such a problem.
I hope that puts your mind at rest a little
55palfers said:
Not so.
A few exposures can result in fibres getting lodged in the lungs that (30 - 40) years later can cause cancer.
Best not to take any risks.
Taken from the US National Library of Medicine....A few exposures can result in fibres getting lodged in the lungs that (30 - 40) years later can cause cancer.
Best not to take any risks.
"This review provides a basis for substantiating both kinetically and pathologically the differences between chrysotile and amphibole asbestos. Chrysotile, which is rapidly attacked by the acid environment of the macrophage, falls apart in the lung into short fibers and particles, while the amphibole asbestos persist creating a response to the fibrous structure of this mineral. Inhalation toxicity studies of chrysotile at non-lung overload conditions demonstrate that the long (>20?µm) fibers are rapidly cleared from the lung, are not translocated to the pleural cavity and do not initiate fibrogenic response. In contrast, long amphibole asbestos fibers persist, are quickly (within 7?d) translocated to the pleural cavity and result in interstitial fibrosis and pleural inflammation. Quantitative reviews of epidemiological studies of mineral fibers have determined the potency of chrysotile and amphibole asbestos for causing lung cancer and mesothelioma in relation to fiber type and have also differentiated between these two minerals. These studies have been reviewed in light of the frequent use of amphibole asbestos. As with other respirable particulates, there is evidence that heavy and prolonged exposure to chrysotile can produce lung cancer. The importance of the present and other similar reviews is that the studies they report show that low exposures to chrysotile do not present a detectable risk to health. Since total dose over time decides the likelihood of disease occurrence and progression, they also suggest that the risk of an adverse outcome may be low with even high exposures experienced over a short duration."
But I have to agree with you...best not to take any more risks.
Edited by ObSene on Tuesday 4th November 08:21
55palfers said:
Not so.
A few exposures can result in fibres getting lodged in the lungs that (30 - 40) years later can cause cancer.
Best not to take any risks.
But the OP hasn't stated his age - If he's over 60, then statistically it'll make no difference A few exposures can result in fibres getting lodged in the lungs that (30 - 40) years later can cause cancer.
Best not to take any risks.
Seriously though, it would seem there's little risk unless you work removing these materials on a regular basis.
silvagod said:
You should be ok.
Asbestos was not widely used in Artex type textured coatings from 1984 onwards.
There wasn't a legal banning of the use of Chrysotile (White) asbestos until November 1999 but many companies voluntarily stopped using it from the mid 80's.
My company checks houses for asbestos (plus other buildings) and we have never found anything but Chrysotile in textured coatings. Whilst it's true that all types of asbestos can cause cancer, it's the Amosite (Brown) and Crocidolite (Blue) that are the really problematic ones. It's mostly down to the fibres, the blue and brown are like needles with barbs and they can get down deep inside your lungs. The white fibres are curly and therefore harder to get stuck.
The main cause of death at the moment is from Mesothelioma, that is usually from the blue and brown. Asbestosis was once a big killer and was caused by all 3 types but mainly white and usually through a long and/or large exposure. Asbestosis deaths are now declining (asbestos factories being the usual culprits)
Although one microscopic fibre can eventually kill you, the type and concentrations within Artex are such that the risk is much much lower. In fact the HSE removed Artex from being a 'licensed company only' removal to a 'any competent contractor' removal due to the fact that it wasn't such a problem.
I hope that puts your mind at rest a little
Dude, I genuinely face this uncertainty in my house (mid 1970ies build) and I need to know what I'm dealing with before I start gutting it.Asbestos was not widely used in Artex type textured coatings from 1984 onwards.
There wasn't a legal banning of the use of Chrysotile (White) asbestos until November 1999 but many companies voluntarily stopped using it from the mid 80's.
My company checks houses for asbestos (plus other buildings) and we have never found anything but Chrysotile in textured coatings. Whilst it's true that all types of asbestos can cause cancer, it's the Amosite (Brown) and Crocidolite (Blue) that are the really problematic ones. It's mostly down to the fibres, the blue and brown are like needles with barbs and they can get down deep inside your lungs. The white fibres are curly and therefore harder to get stuck.
The main cause of death at the moment is from Mesothelioma, that is usually from the blue and brown. Asbestosis was once a big killer and was caused by all 3 types but mainly white and usually through a long and/or large exposure. Asbestosis deaths are now declining (asbestos factories being the usual culprits)
Although one microscopic fibre can eventually kill you, the type and concentrations within Artex are such that the risk is much much lower. In fact the HSE removed Artex from being a 'licensed company only' removal to a 'any competent contractor' removal due to the fact that it wasn't such a problem.
I hope that puts your mind at rest a little
Always happy to give business to a fellow PHer but, unless I'm missing something, there's nothing on your website to say which bits of the UK you cover...
A friend of mine died of asbestos related cancer earlier this year aged 61. He was fit, played squash etc, until two years ago.
He left his job in a large well known asbestos factory over thirty years ago, after working there five years.
He was receiving financial compensation monthly for this as he had to give up work twelve months before he died.
He left his job in a large well known asbestos factory over thirty years ago, after working there five years.
He was receiving financial compensation monthly for this as he had to give up work twelve months before he died.
dxg said:
Dude, I genuinely face this uncertainty in my house (mid 1970ies build) and I need to know what I'm dealing with before I start gutting it.
Always happy to give business to a fellow PHer but, unless I'm missing something, there's nothing on your website to say which bits of the UK you cover...
Sent you a PM Always happy to give business to a fellow PHer but, unless I'm missing something, there's nothing on your website to say which bits of the UK you cover...
ObSene said:
55palfers said:
Not so.
A few exposures can result in fibres getting lodged in the lungs that (30 - 40) years later can cause cancer.
Best not to take any risks.
Taken from the US National Library of Medicine....A few exposures can result in fibres getting lodged in the lungs that (30 - 40) years later can cause cancer.
Best not to take any risks.
"This review provides a basis for substantiating both kinetically and pathologically the differences between chrysotile and amphibole asbestos. Chrysotile, which is rapidly attacked by the acid environment of the macrophage, falls apart in the lung into short fibers and particles, while the amphibole asbestos persist creating a response to the fibrous structure of this mineral. Inhalation toxicity studies of chrysotile at non-lung overload conditions demonstrate that the long (>20?µm) fibers are rapidly cleared from the lung, are not translocated to the pleural cavity and do not initiate fibrogenic response. In contrast, long amphibole asbestos fibers persist, are quickly (within 7?d) translocated to the pleural cavity and result in interstitial fibrosis and pleural inflammation. Quantitative reviews of epidemiological studies of mineral fibers have determined the potency of chrysotile and amphibole asbestos for causing lung cancer and mesothelioma in relation to fiber type and have also differentiated between these two minerals. These studies have been reviewed in light of the frequent use of amphibole asbestos. As with other respirable particulates, there is evidence that heavy and prolonged exposure to chrysotile can produce lung cancer. The importance of the present and other similar reviews is that the studies they report show that low exposures to chrysotile do not present a detectable risk to health. Since total dose over time decides the likelihood of disease occurrence and progression, they also suggest that the risk of an adverse outcome may be low with even high exposures experienced over a short duration."
But I have to agree with you...best not to take any more risks.
I think it's best think of it using a favourite analogy. You have 8 dice, if you roll all sixes you're f
ked, you'll die of something like mesothelioma. The more you inhale, the more times you roll the dice. One roll is unlikely to mean you die as a result of inhalation, but you can be sure given the numbers exposed some poor bds will.I used to use a sealed fume cabinet with massive gloves, a mask, goggles, and the stuff dunked in saline. In terms of legislation, ironically the stuff I was analysing it against, for which no legislation currently exists and is used in manufacture, was something like twice as able to aggravate the macrophage. Clinically what this will translate to remains to be seen.
Sorry I went all quiet for a bit... Just wanted to say thanks for all the responses.
I've got over the initial scare and found pretty much what has been echoed here - that white is the least risky, regular exposure means greater risk and that I've probably (hopefully...) not done myself or anyone else too much harm.
I'm repainting at the moment and the carpets were due to come out in a couple of weeks anyway so I did that immediately, and it didn't stop me religiously cleaning everything else with a mask on afterwards
I've got over the initial scare and found pretty much what has been echoed here - that white is the least risky, regular exposure means greater risk and that I've probably (hopefully...) not done myself or anyone else too much harm.
I'm repainting at the moment and the carpets were due to come out in a couple of weeks anyway so I did that immediately, and it didn't stop me religiously cleaning everything else with a mask on afterwards
CER927 said:
Curious, what was you testing this against?
I had a few controls. Bog standard carbon, Diesel exhaust particulate (DEP), as well as the various types of asbestos, but the most toxic were carbon nano sized tubes (CNT). You expose the cells and look for markers of cellular damage an inflammation.When the macrophage phagocytosed the CNT particles, as with asbestos fibres, they impaled themselves, damaging cell machinery and releasing greater numbers of inflammatory markers. This lead lead to a further aggrevated response, fibrosis and further cellular damage.
I took some wonderful pictures of the process.
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