The Official Manchester United Thread (Vol 12)
Discussion
Challo said:
My bad, I misread the post, apologies.
To be honest there is not many in that list that are inspiring. Potter seems the safe option, Tuchel is like Jose and can be toxic. Amorim has plaudits, but potentially the same issue as ETH. Would Inzagi be any good? Who knows.
Apology accepted...To be honest there is not many in that list that are inspiring. Potter seems the safe option, Tuchel is like Jose and can be toxic. Amorim has plaudits, but potentially the same issue as ETH. Would Inzagi be any good? Who knows.
The problem is that we all have different ideas of what the expectations should be.
CL - I do t think it’s worth worrying about. We aren’t anywhere close to winning it. We struggled to finish 4th in a 4 team group. It just detracts from our other issues and reduces genuine training and coaching time. Forget all about attracting top talent, that’s just wrong recruitment IMO
Players - clear them out and stop pissing about with it.
Incoming players - no older players, no established superstars and no big money / massive salaries should be being paid.
Manager - ban him from buying anyone he has worked with previously, or who has played in the Dutch league only. Demand an explanation of his playing style. Demand to see it in action. If the players aren’t interested or bought in, see above. If the manager can’t won’t deliver on a style. Sack him and bring in someone who will.
Youth - focus on this. It will take years to pay off but try to refresh it and get some genuine kids who aren’t 5’6 and built like a 12 year old girl.
Just focus on some of the basic stuff. We’ve got the foundations all wrong yet people are still looking at the wallpaper and wondering what colour scheme we should try next.
CL - I do t think it’s worth worrying about. We aren’t anywhere close to winning it. We struggled to finish 4th in a 4 team group. It just detracts from our other issues and reduces genuine training and coaching time. Forget all about attracting top talent, that’s just wrong recruitment IMO
Players - clear them out and stop pissing about with it.
Incoming players - no older players, no established superstars and no big money / massive salaries should be being paid.
Manager - ban him from buying anyone he has worked with previously, or who has played in the Dutch league only. Demand an explanation of his playing style. Demand to see it in action. If the players aren’t interested or bought in, see above. If the manager can’t won’t deliver on a style. Sack him and bring in someone who will.
Youth - focus on this. It will take years to pay off but try to refresh it and get some genuine kids who aren’t 5’6 and built like a 12 year old girl.
Just focus on some of the basic stuff. We’ve got the foundations all wrong yet people are still looking at the wallpaper and wondering what colour scheme we should try next.
Ahh guys I just can't get onboard with this whole club needs burning to the ground thing.
Let's put it another way.
ETH was meant to be some tactical genius who could modernise how Man United play. Ole was a "vibes" manager who had previously only managed Cardiff and some referred to as a PE teacher.
Under ETH we are woeful against any big sides, and can't lay a glove on City.
Under Ole we had 4 wins, 1 draw, 4 losses vs City.
Is there really not a possibility that just changing the manger could improve us?
If a "PE teacher" had us playing BETTER football, scoring MORE goals, and presenting a bigger threat to our supposed immediate rivals and Ten Hag has then come in and spent £400mn on the very squad Ole used to do this why can we not expect better results? Maybe Ten Hag just isn't very good.
Of course we need to sort the scouting, the DOF, the transfer strategy etc etc.
But I am absolutely convinced another manager would achieve far better results and have us playing better.
Put it this way - you can give the same poker hand to 2 players, and it might be a bad hand. But a good player will play a bad hand well.
Hearing Ten Hag say how well we played, how we've made so much progress this season etc confirms to me he's completely deluded.
Expectations have hit the floor here, people go into games against our rivals EXPECTING us to lose by 5/6/7 goals and coming out happy when we only let in 3.
P.S this isn't revisionism on the Ole era, by the end he'd completely lost it. He took us as far as he could with the UEFA final and it went downhill from there.
Let's put it another way.
ETH was meant to be some tactical genius who could modernise how Man United play. Ole was a "vibes" manager who had previously only managed Cardiff and some referred to as a PE teacher.
Under ETH we are woeful against any big sides, and can't lay a glove on City.
Under Ole we had 4 wins, 1 draw, 4 losses vs City.
Is there really not a possibility that just changing the manger could improve us?
If a "PE teacher" had us playing BETTER football, scoring MORE goals, and presenting a bigger threat to our supposed immediate rivals and Ten Hag has then come in and spent £400mn on the very squad Ole used to do this why can we not expect better results? Maybe Ten Hag just isn't very good.
Of course we need to sort the scouting, the DOF, the transfer strategy etc etc.
But I am absolutely convinced another manager would achieve far better results and have us playing better.
Put it this way - you can give the same poker hand to 2 players, and it might be a bad hand. But a good player will play a bad hand well.
Hearing Ten Hag say how well we played, how we've made so much progress this season etc confirms to me he's completely deluded.
Expectations have hit the floor here, people go into games against our rivals EXPECTING us to lose by 5/6/7 goals and coming out happy when we only let in 3.
P.S this isn't revisionism on the Ole era, by the end he'd completely lost it. He took us as far as he could with the UEFA final and it went downhill from there.
Edited by simon800 on Monday 4th March 11:36
LF5335 said:
The problem is that we all have different ideas of what the expectations should be.
CL - I do t think it’s worth worrying about. We aren’t anywhere close to winning it. We struggled to finish 4th in a 4 team group. It just detracts from our other issues and reduces genuine training and coaching time. Forget all about attracting top talent, that’s just wrong recruitment IMO
Players - clear them out and stop pissing about with it.
Incoming players - no older players, no established superstars and no big money / massive salaries should be being paid.
Manager - ban him from buying anyone he has worked with previously, or who has played in the Dutch league only. Demand an explanation of his playing style. Demand to see it in action. If the players aren’t interested or bought in, see above. If the manager can’t won’t deliver on a style. Sack him and bring in someone who will.
Youth - focus on this. It will take years to pay off but try to refresh it and get some genuine kids who aren’t 5’6 and built like a 12 year old girl.
Just focus on some of the basic stuff. We’ve got the foundations all wrong yet people are still looking at the wallpaper and wondering what colour scheme we should try next.
I do think bringing in Omar Berrada will be a massive coup for us. From reading a bit on his background he seems to be someone focused on the playing side, and ensuring we get value for money in the transfer market. City have all the money in the world but apart from Grealish I cannot really remember them over paying for someone in the recent era. They do their business early, and on the quiet and get the right profile of player in. CL - I do t think it’s worth worrying about. We aren’t anywhere close to winning it. We struggled to finish 4th in a 4 team group. It just detracts from our other issues and reduces genuine training and coaching time. Forget all about attracting top talent, that’s just wrong recruitment IMO
Players - clear them out and stop pissing about with it.
Incoming players - no older players, no established superstars and no big money / massive salaries should be being paid.
Manager - ban him from buying anyone he has worked with previously, or who has played in the Dutch league only. Demand an explanation of his playing style. Demand to see it in action. If the players aren’t interested or bought in, see above. If the manager can’t won’t deliver on a style. Sack him and bring in someone who will.
Youth - focus on this. It will take years to pay off but try to refresh it and get some genuine kids who aren’t 5’6 and built like a 12 year old girl.
Just focus on some of the basic stuff. We’ve got the foundations all wrong yet people are still looking at the wallpaper and wondering what colour scheme we should try next.
From my perspective ETH should get one more season in charge. Mainly because this season has been a s
t show in terms of injuries, and our back-up players just arent good enough technically. It might only be for a year, especially as Berrada is not official in charge due to gardening leave and it could be the same for Ashworth if he comes in. Would they have long enough to get their feet under the table and decide what manager should United have to lead us forward? Would they benefit with ETH as a caretaker manager perhaps for another 12month, work through the squad and try and bring in players they want to lead the club forward? As LF555 mentions they should be younger, hungry, technically good and want to be at the club. No more big name players on huge wages.
The club has been a st show ,any manager coming in when ETH came in would struggle ,Greenwood,Ronaldo ,supposed takeover… these are/were huge background issues that had a clear impact on the pitch .
Injuries have effectively denied ETH from picking anything close to a first choice 11 this season ,look at how injuries did Liverpool in last season .
Klopp and Arteta took 3-4 years to get remotely close to building decent teams .Its easy to criticise from our armchairs but as frustrated as I am I would be inclined to give him another season but I will never forgive him for insisting on buying Antony .
t show ,any manager coming in when ETH came in would struggle ,Greenwood,Ronaldo ,supposed takeover… these are/were huge background issues that had a clear impact on the pitch .Injuries have effectively denied ETH from picking anything close to a first choice 11 this season ,look at how injuries did Liverpool in last season .
Klopp and Arteta took 3-4 years to get remotely close to building decent teams .Its easy to criticise from our armchairs but as frustrated as I am I would be inclined to give him another season but I will never forgive him for insisting on buying Antony .
simon800 said:
Ahh guys I just can't get onboard with this whole club needs burning to the ground thing.
Let's put it another way.
ETH was meant to be some tactical genius who could modernise how Man United play. Ole was a "vibes" manager who had previously only managed Cardiff and some referred to as a PE teacher.
Under ETH we are woeful against any big sides, and can't lay a glove on City.
Under Ole we had 4 wins, 1 draw, 4 losses vs City.
Is there really not a possibility that just changing the manger could improve us?
If a "PE teacher" had us playing BETTER football, scoring MORE goals, and presenting a bigger threat to our supposed immediate rivals and Ten Hag has then come in and spent £400mn on the very squad Ole used to do this why can we not expect better results? Maybe Ten Hag just isn't very good.
Of course we need to sort the scouting, the DOF, the transfer strategy etc etc.
But I am absolutely convinced another manager would achieve far better results and have us playing better.
Put it this way - you can give the same poker hand to 2 players, and it might be a bad hand. But a good player will play a bad hand well.
Hearing Ten Hag say how well we played, how we've made so much progress this season etc confirms to me he's completely deluded.
Expectations have hit the floor here, people go into games against our rivals EXPECTING us to lose by 5/6/7 goals and coming out happy when we only let in 3.
P.S this isn't revisionism on the Ole era, by the end he'd completely lost it. He took us as far as he could with the UEFA final and it went downhill from there.
To expand your analogy a bit, what people are wanting with the 'burn the club down' approach is to give the poker player a better hand to start with. Then we can see what they do. Let's put it another way.
ETH was meant to be some tactical genius who could modernise how Man United play. Ole was a "vibes" manager who had previously only managed Cardiff and some referred to as a PE teacher.
Under ETH we are woeful against any big sides, and can't lay a glove on City.
Under Ole we had 4 wins, 1 draw, 4 losses vs City.
Is there really not a possibility that just changing the manger could improve us?
If a "PE teacher" had us playing BETTER football, scoring MORE goals, and presenting a bigger threat to our supposed immediate rivals and Ten Hag has then come in and spent £400mn on the very squad Ole used to do this why can we not expect better results? Maybe Ten Hag just isn't very good.
Of course we need to sort the scouting, the DOF, the transfer strategy etc etc.
But I am absolutely convinced another manager would achieve far better results and have us playing better.
Put it this way - you can give the same poker hand to 2 players, and it might be a bad hand. But a good player will play a bad hand well.
Hearing Ten Hag say how well we played, how we've made so much progress this season etc confirms to me he's completely deluded.
Expectations have hit the floor here, people go into games against our rivals EXPECTING us to lose by 5/6/7 goals and coming out happy when we only let in 3.
P.S this isn't revisionism on the Ole era, by the end he'd completely lost it. He took us as far as he could with the UEFA final and it went downhill from there.
Edited by simon800 on Monday 4th March 11:36
I don't think there is much disagreement with the statement someone else could do better with the cards dealt at this point, but the question mark some (and myself) have is that is it worth changing while the hand is still being improved? What if the skillset for dealing with a bad hand (Ole) is different than dealing with a good hand (ETH at Ajax), and what we are moving too needs the latter? If we change too much all at the same time you can't tell what is improved by what - and right now the structure is changing. It's all a gamble, so we have to see.
In the end though I think the lack of CL will do for him and we will change. Just feels a bit foregone at this point barring a sudden reversal in fortunes.
simon800 said:
Hearing Ten Hag say how well we played, how we've made so much progress this season etc confirms to me he's completely deluded.
[/footnote]
This annoys the life out of me in his after match interviews.[/footnote]
He's either telling bare faced lies or utterly deluded neither of which you want in a manager.
We're likely to end the season with 20 defeats. Let that sink in.
bstb3 said:
To expand your analogy a bit, what people are wanting with the 'burn the club down' approach is to give the poker player a better hand to start with. Then we can see what they do.
I don't think there is much disagreement with the statement someone else could do better with the cards dealt at this point, but the question mark some (and myself) have is that is it worth changing while the hand is still being improved? What if the skillset for dealing with a bad hand (Ole) is different than dealing with a good hand (ETH at Ajax), and what we are moving too needs the latter? If we change too much all at the same time you can't tell what is improved by what - and right now the structure is changing. It's all a gamble, so we have to see.
In the end though I think the lack of CL will do for him and we will change. Just feels a bit foregone at this point barring a sudden reversal in fortunes.
I suppose it all depends on what is happening behind the scenes. Berrada isn't officially in as CEO, but apparently is having meetings. Ashworth hasn't been confirmed either but if he is to be the main man will he want his man in now or later? Perhaps Ashworth likes ETH and they want to keep him? I don't think there is much disagreement with the statement someone else could do better with the cards dealt at this point, but the question mark some (and myself) have is that is it worth changing while the hand is still being improved? What if the skillset for dealing with a bad hand (Ole) is different than dealing with a good hand (ETH at Ajax), and what we are moving too needs the latter? If we change too much all at the same time you can't tell what is improved by what - and right now the structure is changing. It's all a gamble, so we have to see.
In the end though I think the lack of CL will do for him and we will change. Just feels a bit foregone at this point barring a sudden reversal in fortunes.
franki68 said:
The club has been a st show ,any manager coming in when ETH came in would struggle ,Greenwood,Ronaldo ,supposed takeover… these are/were huge background issues that had a clear impact on the pitch .
Injuries have effectively denied ETH from picking anything close to a first choice 11 this season ,look at how injuries did Liverpool in last season .
Klopp and Arteta took 3-4 years to get remotely close to building decent teams .Its easy to criticise from our armchairs but as frustrated as I am I would be inclined to give him another season but I will never forgive him for insisting on buying Antony .
t show ,any manager coming in when ETH came in would struggle ,Greenwood,Ronaldo ,supposed takeover… these are/were huge background issues that had a clear impact on the pitch .Injuries have effectively denied ETH from picking anything close to a first choice 11 this season ,look at how injuries did Liverpool in last season .
Klopp and Arteta took 3-4 years to get remotely close to building decent teams .Its easy to criticise from our armchairs but as frustrated as I am I would be inclined to give him another season but I will never forgive him for insisting on buying Antony .
All very sensible Franki but Klopp and particularly Arteta are not fair comparisons to ETH in-fact I was told it was nonsense and injuries are also not a valid excuse either. ETH clearly was supposed to be delivering a treble this season.
This is obviously grossly unfair on ETH but as some posters would have you believe it’s solely down to ETH. He’s a very capable manager as proven with his record with Ajax and a trophy and 3rd for us last year.
Agreed on Anthony sadly I hoped he would kick on this season but he’s gone backwards.
Paddymcc said:
simon800 said:
Hearing Ten Hag say how well we played, how we've made so much progress this season etc confirms to me he's completely deluded.
[/footnote]
This annoys the life out of me in his after match interviews.[/footnote]
He's either telling bare faced lies or utterly deluded neither of which you want in a manager.
We're likely to end the season with 20 defeats. Let that sink in.
You were lucky Haaland was having an off day.
Paddymcc said:
We're likely to end the season with 20 defeats. Let that sink in.
Some on here are fine with that, so low are expectations. Baffling! Usually coming 3rd one season (albeit with some very good fortune) and then spunking another £200mn on players would lead to people expecting the team to get better, rather than worse.
bstb3 said:
In the end though I think the lack of CL will do for him and we will change. Just feels a bit foregone at this point barring a sudden reversal in fortunes.
On the subject of which ETH thinks CL is still on.We have 11 games left and are 11 points off 4th with a goal difference of minus 2 compared to plus 22.
So to come 4th we'd need to win every single one of our remaining games and hope Villa lose 4 out of their 11 remaining games.
We have;
Everton (H)
Sheffield United (H)
Brentford (A)
Chelsea (A)
Liverpool (H)
Bournemouth (A)
Newcastle (H)
Burnley (H)
Palace (A)
Arsenal (H)
Brighton (A)
Anyone thinking we will win 11 out of 11?
I do keep hearing that 5th might get CL, but I'm not sure what leads to this becoming a reality versus it not happening.
Gone a bit AMG said:
Where has anyone said they are happy with 20 defeats?
Do you just make this st up? 15% of the posts on the new thread are your constant whinging. Get some joy in your life.
No wonder folk can’t be arsed with this thread anymore.
Honestly, stop being such a fDo you just make this s
t up? 15% of the posts on the new thread are your constant whinging. Get some joy in your life. No wonder folk can’t be arsed with this thread anymore.
king weirdo.I've already asked you to ignore me.
simon800 said:
On the subject of which ETH thinks CL is still on.
We have 11 games left and are 11 points off 4th with a goal difference of minus 2 compared to plus 22.
So to come 4th we'd need to win every single one of our remaining games and hope Villa lose 4 out of their 11 remaining games.
We have;
Everton (H)
Sheffield United (H)
Brentford (A)
Chelsea (A)
Liverpool (H)
Bournemouth (A)
Newcastle (H)
Burnley (H)
Palace (A)
Arsenal (H)
Brighton (A)
Anyone thinking we will win 11 out of 11?
I do keep hearing that 5th might get CL, but I'm not sure what leads to this becoming a reality versus it not happening.
No chance we will win 11 but Villa have spurs ,city,arsenal ,and Liverpool to play so I wouldn’t throw the towel in yet .We have 11 games left and are 11 points off 4th with a goal difference of minus 2 compared to plus 22.
So to come 4th we'd need to win every single one of our remaining games and hope Villa lose 4 out of their 11 remaining games.
We have;
Everton (H)
Sheffield United (H)
Brentford (A)
Chelsea (A)
Liverpool (H)
Bournemouth (A)
Newcastle (H)
Burnley (H)
Palace (A)
Arsenal (H)
Brighton (A)
Anyone thinking we will win 11 out of 11?
I do keep hearing that 5th might get CL, but I'm not sure what leads to this becoming a reality versus it not happening.
Challo said:
bstb3 said:
To expand your analogy a bit, what people are wanting with the 'burn the club down' approach is to give the poker player a better hand to start with. Then we can see what they do.
I don't think there is much disagreement with the statement someone else could do better with the cards dealt at this point, but the question mark some (and myself) have is that is it worth changing while the hand is still being improved? What if the skillset for dealing with a bad hand (Ole) is different than dealing with a good hand (ETH at Ajax), and what we are moving too needs the latter? If we change too much all at the same time you can't tell what is improved by what - and right now the structure is changing. It's all a gamble, so we have to see.
In the end though I think the lack of CL will do for him and we will change. Just feels a bit foregone at this point barring a sudden reversal in fortunes.
I suppose it all depends on what is happening behind the scenes. Berrada isn't officially in as CEO, but apparently is having meetings. Ashworth hasn't been confirmed either but if he is to be the main man will he want his man in now or later? Perhaps Ashworth likes ETH and they want to keep him? I don't think there is much disagreement with the statement someone else could do better with the cards dealt at this point, but the question mark some (and myself) have is that is it worth changing while the hand is still being improved? What if the skillset for dealing with a bad hand (Ole) is different than dealing with a good hand (ETH at Ajax), and what we are moving too needs the latter? If we change too much all at the same time you can't tell what is improved by what - and right now the structure is changing. It's all a gamble, so we have to see.
In the end though I think the lack of CL will do for him and we will change. Just feels a bit foregone at this point barring a sudden reversal in fortunes.
The people who will be in charge of making decisions on managerial appointments aren't actually in place yet.
Whilst I don't disagree with a lot of what simon says about Ten Haag, I think sacking him right now would be a mistake. We'd have to pay him off for a start. Who would we bring in ?, how do we know they will fit into the system that the people responsible for putting in place haven't even started setting up yet ?. We could bring someone new in, and in 6 / 12 months time find out they're not the right type of manager.
For me, I'm happy the "burn it down and start again" has now started from the top, but I think making knee jerk decisions lower down the pyramid (manager / players) would be a mistake right now. I'm happy to just give it time and wait for it to play out.
It does feel like it's maybe a more prudent approach to be careful and let things play out. The only caveat being the FFP limitations, if we miss CL, make it harder / slower to transform the squad where needed.
Additionally if the perfect candidate for manager (if there even is one) were to suddenly become available it would be silly to pass them up for the sake of waiting a bit to see.
We just have to trust that the people coming in are in a position to make the best decisions for the long term. There is an argument to say other clubs do well chasing short term successes (Madrid being the most obvious example), but they are doing so built on a fairly solid base to allow them to do that, a base which currently we are in the process of smashing up and rebuilding.
Additionally if the perfect candidate for manager (if there even is one) were to suddenly become available it would be silly to pass them up for the sake of waiting a bit to see.
We just have to trust that the people coming in are in a position to make the best decisions for the long term. There is an argument to say other clubs do well chasing short term successes (Madrid being the most obvious example), but they are doing so built on a fairly solid base to allow them to do that, a base which currently we are in the process of smashing up and rebuilding.
Yeah reflecting on points others have made I think it makes sense to wait until the end of the season I guess, or at least until CL is mathematically impossible. Maybe Ashworth loves EtH I suppose. It's a fair point.
The time to get rid was a couple of months back when CL was a realistically salvageable prospect but obviously it was impossible with the ownership stuff. So we are in this in between where we may as well wait it out now.
One thing Ratcliffe did say in his interviews was along the lines of "being in a tricky situation as we need champions league qualification" which made it sound as if next years budget planning (and maybe last years transfer budget?) was on the basis of CL qualification being achieved this season.
The time to get rid was a couple of months back when CL was a realistically salvageable prospect but obviously it was impossible with the ownership stuff. So we are in this in between where we may as well wait it out now.
One thing Ratcliffe did say in his interviews was along the lines of "being in a tricky situation as we need champions league qualification" which made it sound as if next years budget planning (and maybe last years transfer budget?) was on the basis of CL qualification being achieved this season.
simon800 said:
One thing Ratcliffe did say in his interviews was along the lines of "being in a tricky situation as we need champions league qualification" which made it sound as if next years budget planning (and maybe last years transfer budget?) was on the basis of CL qualification being achieved this season.
I think this relates to the sponsorship deal we signed with Adidas mid last yearhttps://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/3810586...
"The original agreement with Adidas links a part of the yearly payments to the club's participation in the Champions League, according to the company's latest annual report.
A failure by the club to play in the Champions League for two or more consecutive seasons reduces its annual payments by 30% of the applicable amount, according to the deal."
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