How Would You Feel About A Gay Player In The Dressing Room?

[im]

JQ said:

im said:

e21Mark said:

Changing rooms (in the UK anyway) are determined by the physical sex, not sexual preference.

And why is the split like that and not (say) by Age or any other arbitary measure?

Why do we split changing rooms (naked bodies) into 2 camps...Male and Female...what is the underlying argument for that?

Women have historically been far more insecure about their bodies than men, even around other women.

They may indeed be more insecure about their bodies among other women but that will most certainly not be the reason they don't want to share with men.

Even beautiful women with lovely bodies will object to a bloke prancing in on them naked. Try following a beautiful woman into a female changing room and asking if she objects to you being there on the basis that she is insecure about her body.

Nope...I'd hazard a guess that the reason they don't want MEN in the room is all about perceived sexual intimidation..."leering, lusting, smirking etc"

[im]

Bill said:

...and men often boorish and lecherous particularly in a group.

Exactly.

So, with that as your bar, why should a single straight guy have to accept sharing a shower with a bunch of gay blokes?

Same-same surely?

[im]

Bill said:

Do you actually know any women? They are all insecure to some degree.

Yeah...just the one or two mind...

Take the currently running celeb big brother for example...

Beautiful and very promiscuous women all sharing a shower together...Dappy opens the door and the screaming could be heard down here in Sussex.

Those women were happy with each other but not with Dappy jumping in.

Anyway...it's becomming clear that nobody on here has a cohesive argument against a straight guy objecting to sharing a shower with a gay guy.

Well, one that doesn't include the "man up" type response.

[im]

JQ said:

This thread has highlighted that the vast majority of men (assuming the participants of this thread are representative) don't have the same objection to gay men. So why would you exclude them?

That is true but what is the logical response the first time somebody does object and says my wife and daughter don't have to put up with this, why should I?

[im]

Bill said:

Er, ok. Is he particularly insecure?

If he were real you mean?

Lets say he is.

[im]

blindswelledrat said:

Its actually quite an interesting thought.
Whilst this thread shows that most people wouldn't mind it at all, I equally agree that you can't blame someone who does mind it. It's not their fault that for whatever reason they are uncomfortable.
I suppose the answer is that anyone with a hang up about it should just change discreetly. Perhaps partition off showers?
I know that leisure centres are increasingly leaning towards communal changing rooms with changing cubicles and until now it never occurred to me that this might be to address this very issue?

Some bloks sensibilities are not so macho and they are not happy with getting naked in front of somebody they feel will be getting some kind of sexual gratification from watching them shower etc.

Those guys (however small in number) may well argue that they have the same rights as women in this respect.

Anyway...it was just a thought experiment.

although as an aside I never knew that on a daily basis I was talking to sooooo many que....

[im]

e21Mark said:

im said:

I never knew that on a daily basis I was talking to sooooo many que....

There's an insight into your fears right there fella.

And an insight into your lack of comprehension of subtlety

(I've put the on the same line this time to help)

[im]

e21Mark said:

im said:

e21Mark said:

im said:

I never knew that on a daily basis I was talking to sooooo many que....

There's an insight into your fears right there fella.

And an insight into your lack of comprehension of subtlety

(I've put the on the same line this time to help)

I see. I must confess, subtle isn't a word your previous posts have eluded too. (with a smiley face or otherwise)

Nor comprehension yours.

...and no smiley face this time.

In the words of the great Jim Davidson "ping pong"

[im]

DanL said:

Ultimately it seems that this is all about whether people feel comfortable or not. If someone isn't comfortable getting changed in front of someone else (for whatever reason) then they're free to head home and change there, surely? Or free to wait until the changing room is empty, or free not to go to somewhere that they'd have to share a changing room/showers in the first place. Lots of choice, no real drama.

Fair point, well made.

However, using that logic I take I can just stroll into the womens locker room tonight then?

"If you don't like it hun, pull your knickers up and get changed at home".

ETA: People! Please! Stop relating this to how you'd feel. Thats not the question before you.

Look upon it as you're the judge in a case brought before you by a bloke who has objected to getting changed in the same changing room as someone who is openly gay on the grounds that what is good for a woman should apply to him as well. He should be free of any form of PERCEIVED sexual pressure in that pursuit.

What do you decide and why?

Edited by im on Thursday 16th January 15:10

[im]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Another fair point - but if any of the players had said "wait a minute...I'm not happy about this..." what do you think would have happened?

If she'd continued anyway then the players wife or daughters might be distressed that despite his protestations she had continued on regardless.

I suspect the TV crews always get permission first as they are quite likely to burst in on 15 todgers swaying in the breeze live on camera on Grandstand at 5:15

Edited by im on Thursday 16th January 15:07

[im]

Black can man said:

I've not read the whole thread , but I pretty much go along with this, no big deal , I think a lot of men just think that because you go tackle out in the shower the Gay man is going get a boner , doesn't happen , I'm told .

Read the thread fella. This thread has nothing to do with Gays getting boners. Although all of the hard of thinking keep steering it that way.

I'll summarise it again...

Look upon it as you're the judge in a case brought before you by a bloke who has objected to getting changed in the same gym's changing room as someone who is openly gay on the grounds that what is good for a woman should apply to him as well. He should be free of any form of PERCEIVED sexual pressure in that pursuit much as a woman would demand and get.

What do you decide and why?

[im]

CAPP0 said:

I guess there's always the possibility that the gay guy in your changing room may think that you're a complete munter; boner crisis averted.

What are you on about?

[im]

e21Mark said:

So ((in future) would people have to declare their sexuality in order to determine which changing room they use? (for fear of someone using said changing room, perceiving themselves as being found sexually attractive)

Yes, thats the upshot of it. With more and more players feeling able to declare their homosexuality then yes I suppose gay players would have to declare themselves in order to share the changing room with a hetero guy who otherwise wouldn't want to do so. From the POV of the the player who doesn't want to share a shower with a gay guy I suppose whats happening now is deceitful.

Again I return to the analogy of how would a woman feel to be told she'd just showered in front of a 'hidden' male.

Whether the gay guy fancies you or not is completely and utterly irrelevent to this discussion. This is about the right of hetero males to object on the same basis that females object to men.

[im]

DanL said:

im said:

Fair point, well made.

However, using that logic I take I can just stroll into the womens locker room tonight then?

"If you don't like it hun, pull your knickers up and get changed at home".

No, because the situations aren't analogous. By social conventions (and signs on the doors!) men aren't expected to be in women's changing rooms. They are expected to be in the men's changing room.

Yes but those social conventions were developed in a time where homo-sexuality was hidden. It was almost inconceivable to the working man (not the upper classes) of the last 500 years that a mate of theirs could be gay.

Thankfully thats no longer the case. There has been a titanic shift in the acceptability of declaring your homo-sexuality in public. Christ, even in my lifetime 'gay-bashing' was a thing.

[im]

Bill said:

Why is it deceitful if (as you claim) any sexual attraction is irrelevant to the discussion? This is not about gay people being a problem in the dressing room, this is about the insecurities of a bloke who doesn't want to be seen naked by a gay man that he knows about.

You keep going because you hope someone agrees with you, but 150 odd posts in and it hasn't happened.

Er 3 points...

1. I keep going in response to posts with questions.

2. At what point did I ask for 'agreement' - I asked for a coherent logical answer to the conundrum...the opening post explicitly tells you I am undecided on this.

3. If I did have a viewpoint then you're not very observant are you...just 1 page back...

2seas said:

Well I for one think this is a pretty interesting topic. If a straight guy is uncomfortable sharing a changing room with a gay guy then I can't form an argument as to why this would be 'wrong'. Which in turn implies it would be 'right' to offer the straight guy the option of being able to change/shower in private. As has been pointed out the justification is the same as a woman objecting to sharing a changing room with a man.

You're not very good at this forums stuff are you bill.

[im]

2seas said:

Well I for one think this is a pretty interesting topic. If a straight guy is uncomfortable sharing a changing room with a gay guy then I can't form an argument as to why this would be 'wrong'. Which in turn implies it would be 'right' to offer the straight guy the option of being able to change/shower in private. As has been pointed out the justification is the same as a woman objecting to sharing a changing room with a man.

Yep, that's the point my mate was making and even I fell into the 'man up' trap initially.

2seas said:

For all the people saying 'it doesn't bother me'. Ask yourself this: if nudity were legal and your mates suddenly decided to strip you naked and stick you in the middle of London are you sure you would feel completely comfortable in your nakedness? I'm guessing the answer is no. So, to some degree you are self conscious about being naked and if that scenario were to present itself you would feel violated as you have a right to privacy and that choice was removed form you...

That second paragraph is slightly tangential I admit, but there is relevance. The point is perhaps the answer is offering people a choice. So in a male only changing room simply having a few cubicles now gives any straight person uncomfortable changing in front of gay people a choice (to use the cubicle if they want privacy).

The requirement for individual cubicles seems the only answer.

[im]

Bill said:

Anyone worried about changing infront of a gay man can change elsewhere.

[/thread]

Thats not really an answer to the logical conundrum of the rights of the hetero v the rights of the gay man. It's a 'like it or lump it' personal response.

Interestingly a quick google throws up similar discussions:

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=201012...

[im]

Bill said:

im said:

Thats not really an answer to the logical conundrum of the rights of the self conscious hetero sexual v the rights of the openly gay man.

EFA. You're making this into something it isn't.

You've missed it again....self-concious or not, its irrelevent.

[im]

Hugo a Gogo said:

just out of interest; how would you feel about a gay bloke sharing a flat with you, or even sitting next to you on the bus?

Me?

There's a gay guy sitting not 6 feet away from me every day. We're great mates.

Why?

[im]

Bill said:

So you say, I disagree.

Your man would be perfectly happy showering with ten men if he believes none are gay, so what changes when one comes out?

I don't know but I'm guessing perhaps intimidated, embarrassed, affronted...whatever women feel when made to shower with a strange man.

Do you think this is an impossible response from a male?