Explain Water divining

[Gaspode]

f1rob said:

Please show me where I said I possess a supernatural ability ? I dont know what the hell it is the only thing I know is the rods do move in your hands

Yes indeed, the rods do move in your hands. There is considerable evidence to support the hypothesis that the movement is caused by the ideomotor effect in which the brain is unconsciously responding to tiny environmental clues with tiny muscular movements. The rods move because you move them - not deliberately, but you do move them.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support the hypothesis that the rods are responding to some kind of external caused by the presence of water.

[f1rob]

Gaspode said:

I don't doubt that you can detect water in fields which contain hidden pipes. But I don't think you are using paranormal abilities to do so.

I've got a 17 acre field with underground drainage pipes. To a townie, it would be a complete mystery as to how someone could walk into the field, grab a hazel twig, and within 5 minutes or so detect where the pipes were and which way the water would be running in them. But to anyone with a bit of countryside experience, who knows even a morsel about geography, geology, botany, and has got a reasonable eye for breaks of slope, spring lines and such, it wouldn't even take 5 minutes. I certainly wouldn't bet against you being able to quickly point out the drainage lines in my field, or spot where the water table is likely to be closest to the surface. so yes, I accept that you can dowse water. But it's not inexplicable.

I know that many dowsers honestly believe that what they are doing is using some kind of mysterious skill. But the evidence, alas, just isn't there.

This is not to say that dowsing is automatically a con - far from it. It's a very useful skill. It uses the ideomotor effect to amplify subliminal subconscious movements into useful information. But it's not woo, it's a learned skill which operates in the realm of 'unconscious competence'. What is a con is where purveyors of woo reckon that dowsing can be done remotely, or can be used to detect other stuff like cancer. That's bks, that is.

When I was shown by my father it was in an arable field that is as flat as a field can be in Norfolk and has been ploughed every year and there are no features on the field what so ever
I have used copper rods,thats what my dad used and I havent tried anything else but one of the 1st posts on here was someone who mentioned using rods with the handles put into Bic Biro,s,found that interesting as have had people see this in action an say "your moving it with your hands" the pens gets away from this
Also get the "your moving your wrists in"
If you try it and it works for you you can feel as the rods (sense,find,detect ???????) water and they move mostly when I have done it from pointing straight out in front to crossing over each other and almost pointing back at me

Im not saying I have any skill or ability or gift im just holding the rods and i can feel the motion as they move and others can see it,wether they want to belive what they see is another thing
I just form 2 very loose wrists and the rods are just rested in the fists as loose as I can almost free floating,the force that makes them cross is Very small if you had them in a tight grip they wouldnt move

[Eric Mc]

Funny how diviners often have such poor written English.

[jmorgan]

I would have thought that the way the movement of the rods is described here is an issue.

[Gaspode]

If you try the bent wires in Bic holders, yo will find that it's incredibly easy to get the rods to move at will, with no visible movement of the hands whatsoever. You can make them swing around wildly, or point apparently accurately in whatever direction you choose.

An easy test is this:

1. Find a field i which you can dowse for water. Using your preferred dowsing method, wander around the field until your rods cross or do whatever it is they do when you find water.

2. Mark the spot. You may wish to dig down and find the water, but this isn't necessary. it'll be there. You can't dig anywhere in the UK without finding water at some point.

3. Get a tripod or other frame with a couple of clamps capable of supporting the rods in the same way you do. Set this frame up over the exact spot where you found the water. Set the rods so that they are pointing ahead. If they are reacting to the presence of water, they will cross without you being there. Do they do this? Of course they don't.

4. Come to the obvious conclusion. You must be moving the rods yourself. You aren't consciously doing it, therefore you must be doing it unconsciously. You are not a fool or a charlatan or a con man, you are using a well-known and well-documented effect.

One old boy confessed to me once that the first thing he did when inspecting any field preparatory to dowsing was to have a close look round the fences. Why? because if a drain or watercourse has been put crossing a field boundary someone will have marked it so that if the fence is ever repaired the fencer won't bang a post into it. Spot one of these, understand the lie of the land, look at where the poppies or rushes are growing, look where the grass is mossier than normal, and you'll know where the water's running. Look for where the fescues are dominant, and you'll know where it isn't. Draw a mental map of the most likely route of the water is, wander in the area with your divining rods, and you'll find the water. No mystery, just skill.

[Nom de ploom]

I've no proof or opinion either way to be honest, however slightly O/T but not dis-similar is crystal movement.

I didn't believe this until a girlfriend showed me.

she dangled a diamond necklace over me whilst i was laid down and gently moved it along the length of my body. At certain places the diamond started to oscillate gently but noticably and significantly.

I can't explain that either but it definitely moved...

not divining but not witchcraft either....

[carmonk]

Nom de ploom said:

I've no proof or opinion either way to be honest, however slightly O/T but not dis-similar is crystal movement.

I didn't believe this until a girlfriend showed me.

she dangled a diamond necklace over me whilst i was laid down and gently moved it along the length of my body. At certain places the diamond started to oscillate gently but noticably and significantly.

I can't explain that either but it definitely moved...

I can. She moved it.

[Nom de ploom]

:sigh:

[Gaspode]

carmonk said:

I can. She moved it.

Yup. Again, this is a piece of piss to demonstrate. Place your elbows on the desk, forearms pointing upwards. clasp your hands together, and suspend a small object like a ring from a length of cotton so that it dangles over but not touching the desk. Now, without moving your hands, can you make the ring swing back and forth? Can you make it swing first one way, then the other? Can you make it stop swinging and then start again? Of course you can, it's a doddle. Takes about 5 minutes to learn how.

Now dangle the ring from the arm of an anglepoise lamp or similar which overhangs the desk in the same way. Can you make it swing (without blowing on it)? Of course you can't.

[hairykrishna]

Nom de ploom said:

I've no proof or opinion either way to be honest, however slightly O/T but not dis-similar is crystal movement.

I didn't believe this until a girlfriend showed me.

she dangled a diamond necklace over me whilst i was laid down and gently moved it along the length of my body. At certain places the diamond started to oscillate gently but noticably and significantly.

I can't explain that either but it definitely moved...

not divining but not witchcraft either....

It's the ideomotor effect again; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect

[jmorgan]

Same effect that has ouigi....wigi....uigi.... whatever boards users thinking they are for real.

[The Excession]

Eric Mc said:

Funny how diviners often have such poor written English.

I trust that you won't be filing me in your cabinet's bottom drawer folder marked 'woo woo' when you made that assertion?

Eric MC earlier...

(That picture is now framed and firmly nailed to the back of the toilet door in our house.)






(You have no idea how long I spent checking this post for any mistakes.)

[f1rob]

Eric Mc said:

Funny how diviners often have such poor written English.

I am totally crap at English an im the 1st to admit it but does that make my views any less valid ? or your views on the subject hold any more weight due to your better grasp of English both written/spoken ???

I havent got any gift,I dont think its to do with the sub concious If it is the subconcious how does the subconcious know where a watermane is in a totally flat ploughed field ?

[Eric Mc]

The Excession said:

Eric Mc said:

Funny how diviners often have such poor written English.

I trust that you won't be filing me in your cabinet's bottom drawer folder marked 'woo woo' when you made that assertion?

Eric MC earlier...

(That picture is now framed and firmly nailed to the back of the toilet door in our house.)






(You have no idea how long I spent checking this post for any mistakes.)

I've dialled for the ambulance as a precaution.

[Eric Mc]

f1rob said:

Eric Mc said:

Funny how diviners often have such poor written English.

I am totally crap at English an im the 1st to admit it but does that make my views any less valid ? or your views on the subject hold any more weight due to your better grasp of English both written/spoken ???

I havent got any gift,I dont think its to do with the sub concious If it is the subconcious how does the subconcious know where a watermane is in a totally flat ploughed field ?

I just thought that the two skills seemed to go together.

[f1rob]

carmonk said:

What you just wrote suggests that you do think it's supernatural. Instead of 'I move the rods' you say 'the rods move'. Rods don't move unless you move them and if you're claiming they do, in the absence of any wind or magnetic fields, then you're claiming the supernatural, or at least something unknown to science.

THATS MY POINT ! the fact that it might be unknown to science dosent make it supernatural
It might be the body,s own magnetic field-I dont know the only thing I do know is I dont try to move the rods but when they are over water (6" watermain or 25mmpipe in my case) they move.when it happens you can angle your wrists forward an the rods will still come back

If this was used in olden days to find the best place to dig a well I havent got a clue how its done as I said before the water table here is 30 ft down and I cant detect it,well not that I know off.

People keep saying go an get the million dollar prize but what I have done isnt anything special and have shown people how to do it and they have "felt" the rods move soon as they do it so I doubt the prize is going to be so easy to get that anyone straight of the street could just walk in and get it ???

[Gaspode]

f1rob said:

I am totally crap at English an im the 1st to admit it but does that make my views any less valid ? or your views on the subject hold any more weight due to your better grasp of English both written/spoken ???

I havent got any gift,I dont think its to do with the sub concious If it is the subconcious how does the subconcious know where a watermane is in a totally flat ploughed field ?

If you have poor communication skills it is within your grasp to improve them, should you wish to do so. It's inevitable that the better one's skills, the more credibility one is going to have, it's the same with anything in life. To illustrate the point, how would you feel if you went to the doctor and he said "I'm totally crap at being a surgeon but that doesn't make my willingness to have a go any less valid?"

As to your second point, if you genuinely believe that you can locate buried water pipes in ploughed fields with a success rate significantly better than chance, then there's an easy million bucks within your grasp. Go for it!

[The Excession]

hairykrishna said:

It's the ideomotor effect again; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect

I have no issue ascribing the 'dowsing phenomena' to the ideomotor effect. In fact most dowsers that I've spoken to have said that the rods/twigs/pendulum are simple a means to amplify their body's own natural (and probably unconscious) sensitivity to the presence certain natural environmental signitures.

I elabourated earlier in this thread about my 'abillity' of detecting electric current runing through a cable where I had nothing else to work on apart from the fact that I was holding the cable in my hand and working with a plastic pendulum.

After nine attempts of 'reading' the binary result of an off/on in the circuit, where I had no clues as to what the actual state of the circuit was, I called out to my friend who was about 5 metres away and through a closed door 'How am I doing?'. He told me "You've done nine, do one more...", I did the final one and that was the one I got wrong.

That's significant in my view of the world. (Maybe someone will/could post up the probabillity of a binary coin toss where you get the first nine correct - and again the odds of getting the first nine correct and the last one right?)

I'll relate one more of my stories about dowsing (of course I have plenty) and of course it will need to be a bit of a long post because there is level of heresay/heresy involved. (heresay/heresy on my part obviously)


About fifteen years ago I was working on a farm in Ireland. One day I smacked my head whilst walking under the loader arms of an old Massey 590. Split my head open, blood everywhere, sent to hospital and stitched up. No bother, hurt a bit and to be fair it was quite sore.

Following morning I awoke with the most painful elbow you can imagine. I couldn't put my arm straight. I've had meningitis and that is a pain that you could not believe. My elbow was worse.

I was taken to see the doctor and he tried to pull my arm straight and I cried at his feet begging him to leave it alone. He wanted to give me a prescription for some brufen and I pointed out that I was already full of the stuff, showed him the gash in my head, thumped it really hard a few times and told him 'See that thumping? I can't feel a thing... See this elbow? It's agony".

Anyway, off to the hospital, x-rayed, pulled, prodded, wept, cried, asked them not to touch it. Sent home with a script for brufen and told I'd pulled a muscle!

Two days later someone said to me 'Go see Moss Lane', 'Who?', 'A man up on the hill, a bone setter', a quack if you prefer, what ever you want to call him.

I went, he ran a bent bit of coat hanger up and down my arm and then in the most gentle way took hold of my elbow and arm, pulled it straight and all the pain went away. Right there, right then. All the pain went away.

Best 10 punts I ever spent, and all achieved through dowsing. Randi can keep his millions because there is nothing I would have exchanged for the relief of the pain I was in at the time.

There's a few articles on the web regarding Moss Lane. A lovely chap very quiet and unassuming and evidently very good at what he does. People bring top race horses and grey hounds for treatment from all over the country.

But as we know it's just all 'woo woo'

It's sad to me that these skills are being lost now - my GF thinks he's a bit of a charlatan as he has no formal qualifications, then again she has spent a fortune (in time and money) on accupunture, anatomy and physical therapy classes and she is making a fine and successful living out of that.

[jmorgan]

Still like to know if a diviners convention all point up when it rains.

[Eric Mc]

They daren't have a shower.