Copper grease - or not?
Discussion
When fitting new studs on wheels, or just changing a wheel, I've always applied a small amount of copper grease.
However, I've now read that grease can cause bolts to over-tighten. And since I change all wheels twice a year anyway (separate Winter and Summer wheels and tyres), so it’s not as if the bolts / nuts will be undisturbed for a long time and given a chance to seize up.
On the other hand, I’ve also read that copper grease isn’t as slippery as normal grease, and I've never seen any problems with using a small amount.
Just wondered what other PH-ers normally do - copper grease or not?
Ta
However, I've now read that grease can cause bolts to over-tighten. And since I change all wheels twice a year anyway (separate Winter and Summer wheels and tyres), so it’s not as if the bolts / nuts will be undisturbed for a long time and given a chance to seize up.
On the other hand, I’ve also read that copper grease isn’t as slippery as normal grease, and I've never seen any problems with using a small amount.
Just wondered what other PH-ers normally do - copper grease or not?
Ta
tommy1973s said:
However, I've now read that grease can cause bolts to over-tighten. And since I change all wheels twice a year anyway (separate Winter and Summer wheels and tyres), so it’s not as if the bolts / nuts will be undisturbed for a long time and given a chance to seize up.
I've never had a wheel bolt seize due to corrosion. I've had to use a breaker bar where they've been overtightened though. The threads on wheel bolts are pretty well sealed from weather due to the taper. Lugnuts are a different matter, but on those you would be greasing any exposed thread AFTER tightening.
I'm one for a small amount of copper slip on the mating surfaces though, I have needed to whack wheels to unstick them in the past.
ETA just occurred to me the other end of the thread is open on the hub albeit protected by the "splash guard" behind - I changed front wheel bearings a few weeks ago so you would think I'd remember that lol. But still, never had a seized wheel bolt.
Edited by donkmeister on Wednesday 22 September 11:28
Personally I use copper grease on small headed bolts and nuts that aren’t overly sensitive to precise torques. In my experience you will struggle (unless you use some unsuitable tool) to round a wheel nut / bolt so I wouldn’t bother. A M6/M8 bolt however is a different matter. I sometimes use a mix copper and thread lock on titanium bolts just to prevent a reaction.
I also rightly or wrongly never actually torque a wheel up using a torque wrench, it’s more of thats tight enough so using copper grease may cause me to way over tighten. Again other parts that overtightening may impair movement or items which what I class as less forgiving torque sensitive ranges I’ll use a torque wrench.
I also rightly or wrongly never actually torque a wheel up using a torque wrench, it’s more of thats tight enough so using copper grease may cause me to way over tighten. Again other parts that overtightening may impair movement or items which what I class as less forgiving torque sensitive ranges I’ll use a torque wrench.
Same here, though a small amount.
Jury seems to be out on putting a thin film between alloy wheel contact points and steel hub/discs, i don't get stuck wheel problems anyway because i too swap winter summer wheels and remove the wheels every year anyway for proper brake servicing.
A tale from many years ago, back when lorry wheels were always steel and wheelnuts were tapered usually left/right thread depending on which side and located the wheel rather than wheels being spigot mounted, there were often cases of wheels working loose, still are come to that, to my thinking not surprising when not only the threads were rusty but also the tapers of wheels and nuts rusted, the given wisdom was not to oil the threads/tapers, you often struggled to get the nuts down the thread due to rusting and then you would be crushing rust in the taper fitting when tightening up.
I worked for several years on a contract away from the depot with a mate and we had spare wheels and jacks wheelbraces etc on site and changed our own when needed (never torqued up in those day , used your loaf), we oiled the threads lightly and not only were the nuts easier to remove once cracked, the threads never rusted and the tapers of nuts ans wheel seats were clean as new, we never once had a loose wheelnut issue and i put that down to tight metal to metal contact not a layer of rust which stopped full contact and tight seating.
Maybe wrong in the eyes of the experts but proof it worked in prcatice.
Jury seems to be out on putting a thin film between alloy wheel contact points and steel hub/discs, i don't get stuck wheel problems anyway because i too swap winter summer wheels and remove the wheels every year anyway for proper brake servicing.
A tale from many years ago, back when lorry wheels were always steel and wheelnuts were tapered usually left/right thread depending on which side and located the wheel rather than wheels being spigot mounted, there were often cases of wheels working loose, still are come to that, to my thinking not surprising when not only the threads were rusty but also the tapers of wheels and nuts rusted, the given wisdom was not to oil the threads/tapers, you often struggled to get the nuts down the thread due to rusting and then you would be crushing rust in the taper fitting when tightening up.
I worked for several years on a contract away from the depot with a mate and we had spare wheels and jacks wheelbraces etc on site and changed our own when needed (never torqued up in those day , used your loaf), we oiled the threads lightly and not only were the nuts easier to remove once cracked, the threads never rusted and the tapers of nuts ans wheel seats were clean as new, we never once had a loose wheelnut issue and i put that down to tight metal to metal contact not a layer of rust which stopped full contact and tight seating.
Maybe wrong in the eyes of the experts but proof it worked in prcatice.
Equus said:
Never used it: just clean, dry threads.
Agree. OP, ask yourself ‘do they use it in production?’.
The answer is a most definite no.
Should you use it in service?
The answer is a definite no.
Using grease and applying the same torque, will give an increased tension to the wheel bolt.
mintmansam said:
Personally I use copper grease on small headed bolts and nuts that aren’t overly sensitive to precise torques. In my experience you will struggle (unless you use some unsuitable tool) to round a wheel nut / bolt so I wouldn’t bother. A M6/M8 bolt however is a different matter. I sometimes use a mix copper and thread lock on titanium bolts just to prevent a reaction.
I also rightly or wrongly never actually torque a wheel up using a torque wrench, it’s more of thats tight enough so using copper grease may cause me to way over tighten. Again other parts that overtightening may impair movement or items which what I class as less forgiving torque sensitive ranges I’ll use a torque wrench.
I always use a torque wrench, and always recheck after a number of miles. It falls into the same category as ‘your tyres are your only contact with the road’ scenarios.I also rightly or wrongly never actually torque a wheel up using a torque wrench, it’s more of thats tight enough so using copper grease may cause me to way over tighten. Again other parts that overtightening may impair movement or items which what I class as less forgiving torque sensitive ranges I’ll use a torque wrench.
my dad when he was fit and able used to grease the wheel nuts on all new cars he bought, he learnt that from his dad. So this has ben going on for 100 years or so..
my view is that putting copper grease on the wheel bolts would surely make the grease eventually dry out if the wheels get hot enough - i.e heavy braking heat transference. and thus clog the threads.
so I don't bother any more doing it - much to my ancestors chagrin.
my view is that putting copper grease on the wheel bolts would surely make the grease eventually dry out if the wheels get hot enough - i.e heavy braking heat transference. and thus clog the threads.
so I don't bother any more doing it - much to my ancestors chagrin.
donkmeister said:
I'm one for a small amount of copper slip on the mating surfaces though, I have needed to whack wheels to unstick them in the past.
That's a whole other debate. Lots of people seem to do it with no problem, but the bolts provide the clamping force to get the friction on the mating surface between the hub and the wheel. Greasing that surface is in theory a bad idea.Smint said:
Same here, though a small amount.
Jury seems to be out on putting a thin film between alloy wheel contact points and steel hub/discs, i don't get stuck wheel problems anyway because i too swap winter summer wheels and remove the wheels every year anyway for proper brake servicing.
A tale from many years ago, back when lorry wheels were always steel and wheelnuts were tapered usually left/right thread depending on which side and located the wheel rather than wheels being spigot mounted, there were often cases of wheels working loose, still are come to that, to my thinking not surprising when not only the threads were rusty but also the tapers of wheels and nuts rusted, the given wisdom was not to oil the threads/tapers, you often struggled to get the nuts down the thread due to rusting and then you would be crushing rust in the taper fitting when tightening up.
I worked for several years on a contract away from the depot with a mate and we had spare wheels and jacks wheelbraces etc on site and changed our own when needed (never torqued up in those day , used your loaf), we oiled the threads lightly and not only were the nuts easier to remove once cracked, the threads never rusted and the tapers of nuts ans wheel seats were clean as new, we never once had a loose wheelnut issue and i put that down to tight metal to metal contact not a layer of rust which stopped full contact and tight seating.
Maybe wrong in the eyes of the experts but proof it worked in prcatice.
You do yourself a real disservice there, your practice was largely what's needed, I'll ignore the using your loaf on torque settings. Jury seems to be out on putting a thin film between alloy wheel contact points and steel hub/discs, i don't get stuck wheel problems anyway because i too swap winter summer wheels and remove the wheels every year anyway for proper brake servicing.
A tale from many years ago, back when lorry wheels were always steel and wheelnuts were tapered usually left/right thread depending on which side and located the wheel rather than wheels being spigot mounted, there were often cases of wheels working loose, still are come to that, to my thinking not surprising when not only the threads were rusty but also the tapers of wheels and nuts rusted, the given wisdom was not to oil the threads/tapers, you often struggled to get the nuts down the thread due to rusting and then you would be crushing rust in the taper fitting when tightening up.
I worked for several years on a contract away from the depot with a mate and we had spare wheels and jacks wheelbraces etc on site and changed our own when needed (never torqued up in those day , used your loaf), we oiled the threads lightly and not only were the nuts easier to remove once cracked, the threads never rusted and the tapers of nuts ans wheel seats were clean as new, we never once had a loose wheelnut issue and i put that down to tight metal to metal contact not a layer of rust which stopped full contact and tight seating.
Maybe wrong in the eyes of the experts but proof it worked in prcatice.
Clean threads and a very light oil is absolutely the way to do it. See FTA/IRTE Wheel security Best Practice Guide. Plus ensuring you do torque up correctly per spec, and recheck torque after a short distance / time.
Studied and conducted investigations into a few lost / lose wheel incidents, lots of causes, devil in the detail and all that. But essentially you have to provide the correct clamping pressure to avoid wheel shuffle, too little and you get shuffle, holes and threads being damaged, nuts coming loose, too high clamping pressure and you can exceed elastic limit of materials, plastic yielding, loss of clamping pressure and away you go again.
Designs have been changed but in the old tapered conical setup, even with clean threads etc the amount of friction made a very small window for the correct clamping pressure. Dirty threads, and rust about and so much of the tightening torque goes on overcoming friction that you almost never get sufficient clamping pressure. Also bear in mind that there is a difference between bus and lorry wheel fixings and light vehicle fixings, for want of a better term the latter are overdesigned with a very large safety factor. For heavy vehicles, as the linked guide says, "The data suggests that the factor of safety inherent in the current design is not so high that it can tolerate large amounts of degradation of the components or imperfect maintenance procedures. The report concludes that the current design is NOT a maintenance-free design and does, therefore, requires very careful handling"
Wheel security Best Practice
Link to one available in case you're not IRTE member.
As for copper grease or other anti seize compounds, I have used this on car wheels, but very very sparingly on dissimilar metal mating surfaces because the pain of a wheel needing changing and being seized on due to corrosion is a pain when on the drive, never mind on a wet and dark roadside. Threads as above, clean and very sparing with light machine oil.
Thankyou for the vote of confidence (and the link) FiF, as for lack of torque wrench this was back in the early 80's and my mate and i were on rolonoff skip work transferring waste into 2 regular landfill sites, so regular punctures and being able to change wheels quickly on the spot was the order of the day and we got quite adept at doing so, no air spanners/jacks this was all manual.
I've heard so many times the words uttered 'wheel bolts etc must not be oiled' that i thought i'd be getting a b
king if anything here from the professionals, but it always seemed wrong to me, crushing fine rust upon itself within a taper seat can't lead to a tight flush and corrosion resistant joint.
Present day the lads who look after our tanker fleet wheels i often see spraying some sort of fluid onto the threads, not as the wheels come off regularely (apart from the drive axle for obvious reasons) because they usually swap the tyres over with wheels in situ, brake relines on mine at least nothing under 350k kms, so the wheels stay in place expect if the trailer drums need to come off for brake service, yes gone back to drums specified on the new trailers as have many operators, calipers/discs a pita.
I've heard so many times the words uttered 'wheel bolts etc must not be oiled' that i thought i'd be getting a b
king if anything here from the professionals, but it always seemed wrong to me, crushing fine rust upon itself within a taper seat can't lead to a tight flush and corrosion resistant joint.Present day the lads who look after our tanker fleet wheels i often see spraying some sort of fluid onto the threads, not as the wheels come off regularely (apart from the drive axle for obvious reasons) because they usually swap the tyres over with wheels in situ, brake relines on mine at least nothing under 350k kms, so the wheels stay in place expect if the trailer drums need to come off for brake service, yes gone back to drums specified on the new trailers as have many operators, calipers/discs a pita.
RizzoTheRat said:
donkmeister said:
I'm one for a small amount of copper slip on the mating surfaces though, I have needed to whack wheels to unstick them in the past.
That's a whole other debate. Lots of people seem to do it with no problem, but the bolts provide the clamping force to get the friction on the mating surface between the hub and the wheel. Greasing that surface is in theory a bad idea.
In practice I think there's so much margin for error that it does no harm, but it does sound like a thoroughly daft idea!Pica-Pica said:
Agree.
OP, ask yourself ‘do they use it in production?’.
The answer is a most definite no.
Should you use it in service?
The answer is a definite no.
Using grease and applying the same torque, will give an increased tension to the wheel bolt.
do they give a F*** if your wheel is seized to the hub one dark rainy night ...noOP, ask yourself ‘do they use it in production?’.
The answer is a most definite no.
Should you use it in service?
The answer is a definite no.
Using grease and applying the same torque, will give an increased tension to the wheel bolt.
might it make life easier for you in such circumstances ..yes
has anyone ever had a wheel fall off because the torque setting was off...no
kambites said:
RizzoTheRat said:
donkmeister said:
I'm one for a small amount of copper slip on the mating surfaces though, I have needed to whack wheels to unstick them in the past.
That's a whole other debate. Lots of people seem to do it with no problem, but the bolts provide the clamping force to get the friction on the mating surface between the hub and the wheel. Greasing that surface is in theory a bad idea. In practice I think there's so much margin for error that it does no harm, but it does sound like a thoroughly daft idea!Unless it's explicitly in the manual I don't grease any nut or bolt - if it's likely to bind together then clean up the threads before you put it back together and put a bit of ACF50 or similar over the top.
steveo3002 said:
Pica-Pica said:
Agree.
OP, ask yourself ‘do they use it in production?’.
The answer is a most definite no.
Should you use it in service?
The answer is a definite no.
Using grease and applying the same torque, will give an increased tension to the wheel bolt.
do they give a F*** if your wheel is seized to the hub one dark rainy night ...noOP, ask yourself ‘do they use it in production?’.
The answer is a most definite no.
Should you use it in service?
The answer is a definite no.
Using grease and applying the same torque, will give an increased tension to the wheel bolt.
might it make life easier for you in such circumstances ..yes
has anyone ever had a wheel fall off because the torque setting was off...no
Has anyone had a wheel fall off because the torque setting was off? Accident reports would suggest yes, and every tyre depot tells you to check your torque after so many miles for that very reason...
steveo3002 said:
thebraketester said:
I always use aluminium anti sieze on my wheel bolts and mating faces.
and have they ever fell off?id say someone keen enough to use something is also wise enough to tighten the wheel nuts properly
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