Redbull not to use Renault engines in 2016
Discussion
Looks as though Renault won't be supplying anyone with engines after 2016 (unless Renault have their own F1 team):
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120825
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120825
Puddenchucker said:
Looks as though Renault won't be supplying anyone with engines after 2016 (unless Renault have their own F1 team):
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120825
Fair comments from Ghosn.http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120825
HTP99 said:
Puddenchucker said:
Looks as though Renault won't be supplying anyone with engines after 2016 (unless Renault have their own F1 team):
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120825
Fair comments from Ghosn.http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120825
williamp said:
HTP99 said:
Puddenchucker said:
Looks as though Renault won't be supplying anyone with engines after 2016 (unless Renault have their own F1 team):
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120825
Fair comments from Ghosn.http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120825
"So we started to feel the return on this investment was very weak.
"It was intensified by the fact that when the technology changed and we moved from the V8 engine to the present technology, some of the teams using our engine did not fare well, and the reasons for which they are not performing became the engine.
"So you are in the game that when you perform very well you are never mentioned, and when there is a problem with the team you are the first guy to be pointed [at].[/i]
"Are the criticisms fair or unfair? I don't think it's a question of being fair or unfair.
"It's a sport. You can't just say 'I lost, but my team-mate was really...' you know?
"I think it's a question of sportsmanship. We are expecting, that when we are in a sport working with other people, we win together and we lose together."[/i]
edit, why does formatting not always work!?
Edited by HTP99 on Wednesday 16th September 15:30
williamp said:
Really? He must have forgotten renault forcing these new engine regs on everyone...
They wanted the opportunity to showcase their green engine technology, they got their chance and their technology proved to be crap, so they're calling it a day, job done. Shame F1 couldn't learn the same lesson and come to the same conclusion.I question why Renault would want to buy Lotus really ? If they can't be competitive with the best team on the grid what hope do they have buying out debt ridden Lotus.... especially after many of the top staff have been poached.
Also I wonder how difficult it would be for Redbull to use the Ferrari engine - presumably there will be major differences in the installation and software that could require a rethink of their design approach?
Also I wonder how difficult it would be for Redbull to use the Ferrari engine - presumably there will be major differences in the installation and software that could require a rethink of their design approach?
Could be an interesting season in 2016 potentially...
Merc have the benefit of a great engine and package, but may come to diminishing returns a bit more quickly than the others? They're also slightly suspect in terms of strategy, which still needs to be really tested over a season with real competition.
Ferrari have been slowly catching up If they can make a good improvement for next season they could be a bit closer to Mercedes. They would also have the advantage of being the engine manufacturer.
Red Bull generally will have a pretty good gas/aero (although maybe not with their genius having moved on), and with a better engine could be up there for the fight too. They're also very good on strategy IMO - generally when they see a chance to win they will go for it and it normally works (unlike McLaren for example). So this may make up the slight loss they have since it's not their own engine. Also with their budget they should avoid the issue of not getting new parts (although it will be interesting to see if they challenge Ferrari whether Ferrari will "only have enough new parts for their cars" on some weekends?
Merc have the benefit of a great engine and package, but may come to diminishing returns a bit more quickly than the others? They're also slightly suspect in terms of strategy, which still needs to be really tested over a season with real competition.
Ferrari have been slowly catching up If they can make a good improvement for next season they could be a bit closer to Mercedes. They would also have the advantage of being the engine manufacturer.
Red Bull generally will have a pretty good gas/aero (although maybe not with their genius having moved on), and with a better engine could be up there for the fight too. They're also very good on strategy IMO - generally when they see a chance to win they will go for it and it normally works (unlike McLaren for example). So this may make up the slight loss they have since it's not their own engine. Also with their budget they should avoid the issue of not getting new parts (although it will be interesting to see if they challenge Ferrari whether Ferrari will "only have enough new parts for their cars" on some weekends?
ukaskew said:
Could Ferrari realistically say no to Red Bull? I appreciate Bernie would probably never let it happen, but it would be interesting if a team could simply not source an engine.
There will likely be an agreement for a new supply of engines already in place, there is no way that RB would tell Renault to foxtrot Oscar before organising an alternative. Emeye said:
I think we can conclude from this thread that the current engine regs are s
te.
Possibly.te.The irony is that these engines could have been produced under the blanket of cost capping. Had that happened, Red Bull could most likely have taken their pick from Ford, BMW, VW, Toyota and others who would have got stuck in had the process been a bit cheaper.
As it is Red Bull were one of the fiercest opponents to the cost cutting suggestions.
Reap, sow, etc...
Oh dear, Christian Horner et al really should have just stayed quiet and just worked harder and been more professional about the whole situation. Now, as it stands, if the Renault deal is terminated they will be losing massively in terms of finances
- From 2nd to 4th in the World Constructors championship means a loss of around $20,000,000 according to the Concorde Agreement. Ouch.
- The Infinity sponsorship would also go. That is supposedly worth around $30,000,000 per year. Infinity is owned by Renault, so if the latter pulls out, the former is a dead cert to go also. Again - ouch!
- Equally, Red Bull receive sponsorship money from French oil company Total, which is a long-time supporter and technical partner of Renault, so you would imagine it would also make an exit. Oh dear, this is starting to sound painful.
- Red Bull will probably have to pay Renault for early termination of their contract. I can't imagine that will come cheap. Think tens of millions of dollars.
- And finally, hey will also have to pay - in the region of $20m (£13m) - for their Ferrari engines, whereas the Renault bill was covered - and more - by the Infiniti money. With Renault they were officially the "Works" factory team so the engines were free. With Ferrari they'll have to pay as they'll be a customer team.
This is going to get very painful for Red Bull.
I'd hate to be Dietrich Mateschitz at this point in time.
- From 2nd to 4th in the World Constructors championship means a loss of around $20,000,000 according to the Concorde Agreement. Ouch.
- The Infinity sponsorship would also go. That is supposedly worth around $30,000,000 per year. Infinity is owned by Renault, so if the latter pulls out, the former is a dead cert to go also. Again - ouch!
- Equally, Red Bull receive sponsorship money from French oil company Total, which is a long-time supporter and technical partner of Renault, so you would imagine it would also make an exit. Oh dear, this is starting to sound painful.
- Red Bull will probably have to pay Renault for early termination of their contract. I can't imagine that will come cheap. Think tens of millions of dollars.
- And finally, hey will also have to pay - in the region of $20m (£13m) - for their Ferrari engines, whereas the Renault bill was covered - and more - by the Infiniti money. With Renault they were officially the "Works" factory team so the engines were free. With Ferrari they'll have to pay as they'll be a customer team.
This is going to get very painful for Red Bull.
I'd hate to be Dietrich Mateschitz at this point in time.
What needed to happen and may now be happening is an engine cost cap to the customer, in the V8 era an engine supply deal cost circa £7m, with these V6's its £20m, what should of happened is a cost cap to the customer of say 10mm and the shortfall would have to be met by the manufacturer, of course they'd argue they'd make a loss, I would argue that being the manufacturer and works team they have maximum chance way better than their customers to win the WC, the prize I money and prestige that comes along with it should cover it I would of though, if not reduce your production costs, surely better all round for everyone
NRS said:
Could be an interesting season in 2016 potentially...
Merc have the benefit of a great engine and package, but may come to diminishing returns a bit more quickly than the others? They're also slightly suspect in terms of strategy, which still needs to be really tested over a season with real competition.
Ferrari have been slowly catching up If they can make a good improvement for next season they could be a bit closer to Mercedes. They would also have the advantage of being the engine manufacturer.
Red Bull generally will have a pretty good gas/aero (although maybe not with their genius having moved on), and with a better engine could be up there for the fight too. They're also very good on strategy IMO - generally when they see a chance to win they will go for it and it normally works (unlike McLaren for example). So this may make up the slight loss they have since it's not their own engine. Also with their budget they should avoid the issue of not getting new parts (although it will be interesting to see if they challenge Ferrari whether Ferrari will "only have enough new parts for their cars" on some weekends?
I think you might be being a bit generous that Ferrari are catching up.Merc have the benefit of a great engine and package, but may come to diminishing returns a bit more quickly than the others? They're also slightly suspect in terms of strategy, which still needs to be really tested over a season with real competition.
Ferrari have been slowly catching up If they can make a good improvement for next season they could be a bit closer to Mercedes. They would also have the advantage of being the engine manufacturer.
Red Bull generally will have a pretty good gas/aero (although maybe not with their genius having moved on), and with a better engine could be up there for the fight too. They're also very good on strategy IMO - generally when they see a chance to win they will go for it and it normally works (unlike McLaren for example). So this may make up the slight loss they have since it's not their own engine. Also with their budget they should avoid the issue of not getting new parts (although it will be interesting to see if they challenge Ferrari whether Ferrari will "only have enough new parts for their cars" on some weekends?
Merc are in total control of qualifying and race pace.
Doink said:
What needed to happen and may now be happening is an engine cost cap to the customer, in the V8 era an engine supply deal cost circa £7m, with these V6's its £20m, what should of happened is a cost cap to the customer of say 10mm and the shortfall would have to be met by the manufacturer, of course they'd argue they'd make a loss
An engine supplier to the likes of Red Bull is never going to get credit for a WC, the Red Bull brand overpowers that (which I think is Renaults argument), hence there is no real incentive to supply engines at a loss. It's also easy to forget that Renault are part owned and answer to the French govt, there is no way they are going to let them pee money up the wall for no apparent gain.HTP99 said:
Fair comments from Ghosn.
100% agree. I really do believe The behaviour of RB has been appalling. Like a sulky school child lashing out at thier mates. I'd actually say Ghosn was quite restrained.The only thing I'm not sure of is if RB have been acting poorly deliberately to speed up the end to the partnership (pretty nasty politics) or if they are just so arrogant that they honestly believe thier behaviour has been ok (pretty nasty people).
I do know if I was looking at supplying engines to them. I'd have plenty of contract clauses about what can and can't be said to the media.
Ferrari is the only choice for Red Bull at this point. Mercedes won't sell them engines and Honda isn't competitive.
The problem is Ferrari knows that and adjusts the prices accordingly.
I'll be surprised of Mateschitz still bothers with F1, it's a shadow of itself and the money would be better spent elsewhere.
A strategical partnership with Audi could be interesting, the companies worked together in the past, Audi has expressed interest in F1 and Piech wouldn't lose his face now that he isn no longer in the board.
The problem is Ferrari knows that and adjusts the prices accordingly.
I'll be surprised of Mateschitz still bothers with F1, it's a shadow of itself and the money would be better spent elsewhere.
A strategical partnership with Audi could be interesting, the companies worked together in the past, Audi has expressed interest in F1 and Piech wouldn't lose his face now that he isn no longer in the board.
Edited by EricE on Thursday 17th September 06:23
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