Redbull not to use Renault engines in 2016

[Exige77]

Muzzer79 said:

You'd get innovation yes, but you're (all) forgetting the lengths manufacturers would go to if the constraints of development were removed....

It'd be a money war, with armies of engineers bench testing unobtainium crank shafts and diamond tipped rocker bolts.

The winner would be the manufacturer with the biggest pockets to buy the best ideas and we'd end up in the same situation (one dominant force) as we do now.

Like Toyota.................Oh wait a minute

[AW111]

RichB said:

Ah right, being an old codger I assumes "since the early days" meant Moss, Fangio and Nuvolari

Didn't le mans have tank regulations early on (and sealed oil tanks etc.) ?

I haven't done the research, but I am sure I have run into tank size limits all over : IIRC one of the famous nascar cheats involved cheating on tank sizes.

[Galileo]

AW111 said:

RichB said:

Ah right, being an old codger I assumes "since the early days" meant Moss, Fangio and Nuvolari

Didn't le mans have tank regulations early on (and sealed oil tanks etc.) ?

I haven't done the research, but I am sure I have run into tank size limits all over : IIRC one of the famous nascar cheats involved cheating on tank sizes.

Didn't they use the role-cage to hold fuel or something equally as daft?

[rohrl]

Galileo said:

Didn't they use the role-cage to hold fuel or something equally as daft?

Lots of people have used the rollcage as a fuel or oil tank over the years and there's nothing inherently wrong about doing so. In the pursuit of lightness it's a truism of racing car design that no item on the car should perform only one function.

[FourWheelDrift]

Galileo said:

Didn't they use the role-cage to hold fuel or something equally as daft?

Massive thick fuel line from the fuel tank to the engine that could hold enough extra fuel to let the car run around the track with the tank removed. On board fire extinguishers filled with fuel too.

[ajprice]

There was the business with 2005 BAR Honda having secondary fuel tanks. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula...

[andyps]

ajprice said:

There was the business with 2005 BAR Honda having secondary fuel tanks. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula...

General feeling being that Honda were the scapegoat with many teams doing the same but not punished.

[Scuffers]

and it was not a secondary fuel tank either.

[MissChief]

FourWheelDrift said:

Galileo said:

Didn't they use the role-cage to hold fuel or something equally as daft?

Massive thick fuel line from the fuel tank to the engine that could hold enough extra fuel to let the car run around the track with the tank removed. On board fire extinguishers filled with fuel too.

Some quality, if slightly dangerous cheating here. http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6138/top-nas...

[Muzzer79]

RichB said:

Scuffers said:

Muzzer79 said:

You'd get innovation yes, but you're (all) forgetting the lengths manufacturers would go to if the constraints of development were removed....
It'd be a money war, with armies of engineers bench testing unobtainium crank shafts and diamond tipped rocker bolts.
The winner would be the manufacturer with the biggest pockets to buy the best ideas and we'd end up in the same situation (one dominant force) as we do now.

So, what's new?

Indeed, I thought that was what F1 was about?

What's the point of changing the regs for no discernible benefit in terms of competition between teams or cost?

[Scuffers]

Muzzer79 said:

What's the point of changing the regs for no discernible benefit in terms of competition between teams or cost?

That's a different question.

(No less valid a point though)

[MissChief]

Muzzer79 said:

RichB said:

Scuffers said:

Muzzer79 said:

You'd get innovation yes, but you're (all) forgetting the lengths manufacturers would go to if the constraints of development were removed....
It'd be a money war, with armies of engineers bench testing unobtainium crank shafts and diamond tipped rocker bolts.
The winner would be the manufacturer with the biggest pockets to buy the best ideas and we'd end up in the same situation (one dominant force) as we do now.

So, what's new?

Indeed, I thought that was what F1 was about?

What's the point of changing the regs for no discernible benefit in terms of competition between teams or cost?

While I'm all for opening the regulations in some way. (Open cockpit, four wheels, RWD, you have this much fuel to race with would be a start) it would very quickly become unsustainable. Manufacturer teams would be able to outspend everyone else and the day F1 becomes completely dominated by manufacturers is the day F1 will be in very real danger of becoming a dead horse. F1 needs manufacturers but should be beholden to them. They can come and go on a whim, often with only a few months notice.

Personally I'd like to see a fixed amount of fuel for each race weekend, reduced by, say, ten litres per season. Non race drivers have unlimited fuel in practice sessions too.

I'd also like to see limited in season testing but have it in such a way that lower teams can test more or with race drivers. Won a dry race in the current regulations, 500km with no race drivers. Podium but no win, 1,000km with non race drivers, 500km with race drivers. Points, 1,000km with race drivers. No points, unlimited. Allows Honda, Manor, Sauber etc to test more which should even up the field.

[aeropilot]

I think the in-season testing rule has crippled F1, and proves Bernie is only interested in the money, as the talk of a 21 race season is proof....21 races WTF!
Going back to a 15-16 race season with two in-season test weeks in the early and mid season would be a far better scenario IMHO..... not that it's likely to happen.

[Derek Smith]

aeropilot said:

I think the in-season testing rule has crippled F1, and proves Bernie is only interested in the money, as the talk of a 21 race season is proof....21 races WTF!
Going back to a 15-16 race season with two in-season test weeks in the early and mid season would be a far better scenario IMHO..... not that it's likely to happen.

I used to organise my social and family life around GP weekends. I could manage that with just 12-14 races. Now I don't and it takes the shine off the season. Highlights are not the same. I'm no longer a nerd for the sport. It is now a succession of races rather than a season.

[RichB]

Derek Smith said:

aeropilot said:

I think the in-season testing rule has crippled F1, and proves Bernie is only interested in the money, as the talk of a 21 race season is proof....21 races WTF!
Going back to a 15-16 race season with two in-season test weeks in the early and mid season would be a far better scenario IMHO..... not that it's likely to happen.

I used to organise my social and family life around GP weekends. I could manage that with just 12-14 races. Now I don't and it takes the shine off the season. Highlights are not the same. I'm no longer a nerd for the sport. It is now a succession of races rather than a season.

Agreed, too many races means one is certain to start missing some during the summer. I also agree about testing. Unfortunately for the greedy dwarf testing doesn't fill his bank account with millions from some dodgy government.

[Muzzer79]

MissChief said:

I'd also like to see limited in season testing but have it in such a way that lower teams can test more or with race drivers. Won a dry race in the current regulations, 500km with no race drivers. Podium but no win, 1,000km with non race drivers, 500km with race drivers. Points, 1,000km with race drivers. No points, unlimited. Allows Honda, Manor, Sauber etc to test more which should even up the field.

A nice idea but the teams would abuse it - pulling drivers up in races so as to exploit the opportunities for further testing, taking deliberate penalties, etc

[FourWheelDrift]

Like this?

Any wins in the previous season - No in-season testing.
Any podiums in the previous season - Limited in-season testing.
No wins in the previous season - Normal in-season testing.
No podiums in the previous season - Extended in-season testing.


Teams won't abuse it because they want to win, they want to podium, more points more money.

[mollytherocker]

Derek Smith said:

I used to organise my social and family life around GP weekends. I could manage that with just 12-14 races. Now I don't and it takes the shine off the season. Highlights are not the same. I'm no longer a nerd for the sport. It is now a succession of races rather than a season.

Yes, thats me too! My 'peak' was the Schumacher v Hill years. I was obsessed!

[MissChief]

Muzzer79 said:

MissChief said:

I'd also like to see limited in season testing but have it in such a way that lower teams can test more or with race drivers. Won a dry race in the current regulations, 500km with no race drivers. Podium but no win, 1,000km with non race drivers, 500km with race drivers. Points, 1,000km with race drivers. No points, unlimited. Allows Honda, Manor, Sauber etc to test more which should even up the field.

A nice idea but the teams would abuse it - pulling drivers up in races so as to exploit the opportunities for further testing, taking deliberate penalties, etc

As said, I highly doubt any team would purposefully pull a driver up in order to avoid scoring points or to ensure more testing.

The2016 calendar currently sits as:


March 20 - Australia
April 3 - Bahrain
April 17 - China
May 1 - Sochi
May 15 - Spain
(Three day in season test)
May 29 - Monaco
June 12 - Canada
June 19 - Baku*
July 3 - Austria
July 10 - Britain
(Three day in season test)
July 24 - Hungary
July 31 - Germany
August 28 - Belgium
September 4 - Italy
September 18 - Singapore
October 2 - Malaysia
October 9 - Japan
October 23 - USA
November 6 - Mexico
November 13 - Brazil
November 27 - Abu Dhabi

My suggestions in brackets. Easily doable as they're permanent tracks, two week gaps between races as well and they're still European races where cars will go back to the factory between the races anyway. You could even have a test at COTA in October, make the entry free to fans to increase awareness in the U.S. And make it a young driver test too!

[williamp]

The testing idea would spawn a lot of father/son teams: eg str testing a new front wing, which then appears on the red bull at the next race etc etc. Diferent engines, but new mgu, etc