Official 2024 Japanese Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Poll: Official 2024 Japanese Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Total Members Polled: 124
Discussion
entropy said:
TheDeuce said:
But I do think that the current 'catch up' mechanic designed let struggling teams have more CFD and wind tunnel etc is insufficient. I'm not sure how to improve it or what the answer is but clearly it's not working as it is, RBR started miles ahead in the current regs era and haven't been caught up at all - not even close.
The cost cap is a security blanket. We've got more races, Liberty are bit more equitable c.f. BCE, the teams have enough power to shut down new entrants so that F1 remains 20 teamsThe problem is the cost cap because how do you take advantage of having extra R&D time?
Ditch cost cap but keep RRA.
Or perhaps there should be a sliding spending scale akin to RRA?
I wonder about sliding budget on top of cost cap for on-track testing though.
carlo996 said:
entropy said:
Give them a few extra mm in diffuser height?
BoP is the answer no-one wants to hear. F1 is a meritocracy and if it remains so there's always going to be a team(s) doing a job better than the rest and the haves and have nots.
But why penalise a team which had made the best of the regulations? It’s the opposite of what’s needed. Poor old Mercedes are going around in circles all by themselves. It’s tough luck. Get better people…BoP is the answer no-one wants to hear. F1 is a meritocracy and if it remains so there's always going to be a team(s) doing a job better than the rest and the haves and have nots.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12046/9761849/re...
PlywoodPascal said:
carlo996 said:
Nobody was saying the same when Mercedes were on cruise control, all seems a bit sour grapes tbh.
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2023/race...
PlywoodPascal said:
The problem with sliding budgets based on finishing position is job insecurity for team members, so teams understandably not keen to do that.
Hate to say it (I've gone back to uni and F1 teams make huge efforts into recruitment even with Haas and AT / cash cow RB) but F1 teams are big enough as it is. Sandpit Steve said:
White-Noise said:
thegreenhell said:
It's bizarre that a grown adult needs an emotional support parent hanging around at their place of work all the time.
I don't see it as bizarre. It's very common in sports and a normal thing in motorsport. One other example that springs to mind was Mike Tysons relationship with Cus, he acted like a father and Mike always speaks about him. Many people need that close support and its part of what let's them be the greats they become. Wouldn't work for me down at the office though 
king Tyson, and he’s back in the gym training like it’s 1994. He still looks terrifying! https://www.sportbible.com/boxing/boxing-news/mike...
He would occasionally eat at one of our restaurants during his prime and was an exceptional force even at leisure.
Bo_apex said:
Sandpit Steve said:
White-Noise said:
thegreenhell said:
It's bizarre that a grown adult needs an emotional support parent hanging around at their place of work all the time.
I don't see it as bizarre. It's very common in sports and a normal thing in motorsport. One other example that springs to mind was Mike Tysons relationship with Cus, he acted like a father and Mike always speaks about him. Many people need that close support and its part of what let's them be the greats they become. Wouldn't work for me down at the office though king Tyson, and he’s back in the gym training like it’s 1994. He still looks terrifying! https://www.sportbible.com/boxing/boxing-news/mike...
He would occasionally eat at one of our restaurants during his prime and was an exceptional force even at leisure.
Bo_apex said:
Sandpit Steve said:
White-Noise said:
thegreenhell said:
It's bizarre that a grown adult needs an emotional support parent hanging around at their place of work all the time.
I don't see it as bizarre. It's very common in sports and a normal thing in motorsport. One other example that springs to mind was Mike Tysons relationship with Cus, he acted like a father and Mike always speaks about him. Many people need that close support and its part of what let's them be the greats they become. Wouldn't work for me down at the office though king Tyson, and he’s back in the gym training like it’s 1994. He still looks terrifying! https://www.sportbible.com/boxing/boxing-news/mike...
He would occasionally eat at one of our restaurants during his prime and was an exceptional force even at leisure.
PhilAsia said:
Bo_apex said:
Sandpit Steve said:
White-Noise said:
thegreenhell said:
It's bizarre that a grown adult needs an emotional support parent hanging around at their place of work all the time.
I don't see it as bizarre. It's very common in sports and a normal thing in motorsport. One other example that springs to mind was Mike Tysons relationship with Cus, he acted like a father and Mike always speaks about him. Many people need that close support and its part of what let's them be the greats they become. Wouldn't work for me down at the office though king Tyson, and he’s back in the gym training like it’s 1994. He still looks terrifying! https://www.sportbible.com/boxing/boxing-news/mike...
He would occasionally eat at one of our restaurants during his prime and was an exceptional force even at leisure.
As quite a few have said the problem we have now is development is limited in a lot of ways, resulting in it being slowly for the regulations to develop to the point where the cars get very close. Say if previously you could develop the car to be 10% better, now you hit the limit at 5% and have to stop, the next year is another 5% so it ends up taking longer to hit the time teams are close, and by that point we are at a rule change resetting it all.
If you go the wrong way in development at the start you're doomed for the rest of the rules, as you've spent at least 1 if not more years and money in the wrong direction. You can copy some ideas from others, but you'll then make the same mistakes as them and so waste more money that the best team already has checked out.
It also heavily relies on the wind tunnel and CFD stuff to work correctly when you start a design for new regulations, you might think it does but if not you're in even bigger trouble, as you have to try and fix those (time and money) while also not being able to trust them for car development. I think it would make sense teams can do real world testing within the cost cap, so they can see if there is a big issue ahead of time when developing for the new rules. They can then decide if the money spent on parts plus the other teams seeing their design is worth it or not.
Another issue with the cap is it likely sustains a team's success - if all teams have to pay engineer x a salary of £20k a year then typically the best engineer x will go to the best team as they get the same salary and win. The other teams can't afford to buy in better people, as the overall books have to add up so for most jobs salaries and benefits will be very similar, and so the only things teams can differential themselves is by success, meaning the best will go to the best team.
Also for those saying Toto should go, we still "have" 3-4 years until RB would win a championship if we are using the Merc success timeline. In reality 2026 is the next big date to aim for.
If you go the wrong way in development at the start you're doomed for the rest of the rules, as you've spent at least 1 if not more years and money in the wrong direction. You can copy some ideas from others, but you'll then make the same mistakes as them and so waste more money that the best team already has checked out.
It also heavily relies on the wind tunnel and CFD stuff to work correctly when you start a design for new regulations, you might think it does but if not you're in even bigger trouble, as you have to try and fix those (time and money) while also not being able to trust them for car development. I think it would make sense teams can do real world testing within the cost cap, so they can see if there is a big issue ahead of time when developing for the new rules. They can then decide if the money spent on parts plus the other teams seeing their design is worth it or not.
Another issue with the cap is it likely sustains a team's success - if all teams have to pay engineer x a salary of £20k a year then typically the best engineer x will go to the best team as they get the same salary and win. The other teams can't afford to buy in better people, as the overall books have to add up so for most jobs salaries and benefits will be very similar, and so the only things teams can differential themselves is by success, meaning the best will go to the best team.
Also for those saying Toto should go, we still "have" 3-4 years until RB would win a championship if we are using the Merc success timeline. In reality 2026 is the next big date to aim for.
TheDeuce said:
PhilAsia said:
Bo_apex said:
Sandpit Steve said:
White-Noise said:
thegreenhell said:
It's bizarre that a grown adult needs an emotional support parent hanging around at their place of work all the time.
I don't see it as bizarre. It's very common in sports and a normal thing in motorsport. One other example that springs to mind was Mike Tysons relationship with Cus, he acted like a father and Mike always speaks about him. Many people need that close support and its part of what let's them be the greats they become. Wouldn't work for me down at the office though king Tyson, and he’s back in the gym training like it’s 1994. He still looks terrifying! https://www.sportbible.com/boxing/boxing-news/mike...
He would occasionally eat at one of our restaurants during his prime and was an exceptional force even at leisure.
carlo996 said:
entropy said:
Give them a few extra mm in diffuser height?
BoP is the answer no-one wants to hear. F1 is a meritocracy and if it remains so there's always going to be a team(s) doing a job better than the rest and the haves and have nots.
But why penalise a team which had made the best of the regulations? It’s the opposite of what’s needed. Poor old Mercedes are going around in circles all by themselves. It’s tough luck. Get better people…BoP is the answer no-one wants to hear. F1 is a meritocracy and if it remains so there's always going to be a team(s) doing a job better than the rest and the haves and have nots.
t.Engine party mode - banned
DAS - banned
Etc etc
I've got to the point that I don't care who wins I just want to see a competition and we haven't got one, a mid tier battle to be 5th or 6th or drag a crap car into 10th is all well and good but without a race for the podium positions it really doesn't hold your attention.
Red bull are making monkeys of the rest of the paddock they really are, there is a cost cap but the teams have never been as well funded or as valuable the sport has never been richer, so there is no excuse for not being able to spend or being out spent.
Outside of RB there must be 5000+ people across all the other teams all talented and focused so surely it's not beyond the wit of them to produce a car to challenge the RB (but evidence shows that it is beyond them), Liberty can bring in as much razzamatazz as they want but without some competitive races the spike in viewer interest during and since 2021 will wane.
We're being treated to some of the dullest racing we've had for decades.
Mr Pointy said:
You are so full of st.
Engine party mode - banned
DAS - banned
Etc etc
But those were “innovations” that only one team came up with and, although legal, created a big advantage.t.Engine party mode - banned
DAS - banned
Etc etc
I don’t think the same applies to RB here, they’ve just designed an altogether better car than the rest of the field, with no particular innovations?
thegreenhell said:
carlo996 said:
isaldiri said:
WPA said:
Is it time for the FIA to act then?
Lets be honest they tried hobbling Mercedes at every chance they could, surely it is now time they step in and close the field somehow.
Or do people think they are happy for viewing figures to keep dropping which they must be.
If the FIA tried to mess around with aero rules to knock Red Bull back but end up letting them exploit any new loopholes better than everyone else it would be quite something for unintended consequences......Lets be honest they tried hobbling Mercedes at every chance they could, surely it is now time they step in and close the field somehow.
Or do people think they are happy for viewing figures to keep dropping which they must be.
It was just different people saying it before.
It’s not Red Bull’s domination that’s the problem for me. It’s the fact it’s with one driver. At least in the Mercedes days, Rosberg or Bottas would pick up poles and wins and thereby create just a bit of intrigue.
I play Fantasy F1 and each week is so formulaic in terms of predictions. Verstappen pole, Verstappen win
Mr Pointy said:
carlo996 said:
entropy said:
Give them a few extra mm in diffuser height?
BoP is the answer no-one wants to hear. F1 is a meritocracy and if it remains so there's always going to be a team(s) doing a job better than the rest and the haves and have nots.
But why penalise a team which had made the best of the regulations? It’s the opposite of what’s needed. Poor old Mercedes are going around in circles all by themselves. It’s tough luck. Get better people…BoP is the answer no-one wants to hear. F1 is a meritocracy and if it remains so there's always going to be a team(s) doing a job better than the rest and the haves and have nots.
Engine party mode - banned
DAS - banned
Etc etc
Red Bull have a done a fantastic job of developing their car. Other teams have had huge periods of dominance in the past, and it is the way it should be.
If you don’t like it, maybe try watching a one make series.
Edited by 595Heaven on Tuesday 9th April 12:58
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