F1 engine note - Why all the haters?
Discussion
toppstuff said:
This year cars have less grip and are harder to drive. They are not cornering like on rails, like in recent years.
I like this change a lot. Some people can't see past the noise. I think that is a mistake. These cars are more entertaining than the V8's in recent years by quite a margin.
Saved me having to say it for a second time! I like this change a lot. Some people can't see past the noise. I think that is a mistake. These cars are more entertaining than the V8's in recent years by quite a margin.
Eric Mc said:
Because it is harder to stop a designer from making his car faster.
The natural direction of a speed based activity is for the devices produced to get faster over time. In a speed competitive setting, that is inevitable.
Changing specs and formulae to hold the designers back will result in costs being incurred by the teams as they try to meet the slowing down requirements whilst at the same time trying to be faster than the other chap.
It's a kind of "squaring the circle" dilemma.
Unless the regulations don't change at all, then the cars don't get faster and no costs are incurred.....The natural direction of a speed based activity is for the devices produced to get faster over time. In a speed competitive setting, that is inevitable.
Changing specs and formulae to hold the designers back will result in costs being incurred by the teams as they try to meet the slowing down requirements whilst at the same time trying to be faster than the other chap.
It's a kind of "squaring the circle" dilemma.
But with such a strict set of regulations like we have now (and an engine freeze that we had towards the end of the V8 lifespan) surely they can only make them very small amounts faster.
Even if we kept the same set of rules (e.g. the previous set of rules and V8 engines) you can't tell me that they would eventually be able to make them faster than the V10's were?? And nobody was killed driving a V10!!
Even if we kept the same set of rules (e.g. the previous set of rules and V8 engines) you can't tell me that they would eventually be able to make them faster than the V10's were?? And nobody was killed driving a V10!!
Given time and stability in the regulations, yes they will make the cars go faster. Engine power is only one factor in achieving a fast lap. I would suggest that aerodynamics and chassis control and stability is much more likely to allow a car go more quickly.
A 700 bhp car of the mid 2000s was quicker than a 900 bhp turbo-car of the mid 1980s - chiefly because of aerodynamics and chassis progress over the intervening years.
Tyre technology is also a big factor - which is why the effectiveness of the tyres is now much more closely controlled.
I don't understand your comment regarding about nobody being killed in a V10 powered car.
A 700 bhp car of the mid 2000s was quicker than a 900 bhp turbo-car of the mid 1980s - chiefly because of aerodynamics and chassis progress over the intervening years.
Tyre technology is also a big factor - which is why the effectiveness of the tyres is now much more closely controlled.
I don't understand your comment regarding about nobody being killed in a V10 powered car.
chonok said:
BritishRacinGrin said:
No stuff, Sherlock! They are slower. Most of the lap records were set in the V10 era.
I know, i'm not stupid, but I mean a lot, lot slower.I really can't understand your comment 'people don't like change'
So over the last few years the cars have got slower, quieter and you expect people to like this change??
No stuff ...
Sherlock said:
elementary
What are you getting at, are you suggesting they aren't slower? Quicker in a straight line due to reduced aero, 8-speed and torque, slower everywhere else due to harder tyres and reduced aero. Net effect, this year's cars are slower than last year's at every circuit visited so far (most/all of which are unchanged). Okay if you go back 10 years to when many of the records were set some of the circuits have seen bigger changes but I don't think anybody is disputing that this year's cars are slower.
BritishRacinGrin said:
What are you getting at, are you suggesting they aren't slower? Quicker in a straight line due to reduced aero, 8-speed and torque, slower everywhere else due to harder tyres and reduced aero. Net effect, this year's cars are slower than last year's at every circuit visited so far (most/all of which are unchanged). Okay if you go back 10 years to when many of the records were set some of the circuits have seen bigger changes but I don't think anybody is disputing that this year's cars are slower.
Spot on.The only really notable "improvement" is that in a straight line without a grip problem (Monza, perhaps on the Kemmel in Spa, perhaps Canada) they'll be hitting higher speed trap figures this year than during the V8 era.
Monza is rumoured to be in the region of 225-230mph on the simulators, which is similar to what the 2004/5 spec V10s, but of course F1 in 2014 has no tyre war and much less downforce than during that era.
Overall laptimes will be much worse everywhere because the cars have lost performance where grip is concerned (in corners, under braking, even under acceleration at lower speeds) - the tyres are less grippy, and the downforce just isnt' there any more.
The 2014 cars also weigh more (691kg these days, including driver) - the older cars were lighter (605kg in 2004 driver+car, for example).
Even during the late '80s, when we had the last of the turbos and fuel limits had come in (1988, 155 litres /race which isn't far off 2014 rules), the min weight was 540kg.
These days we have 100kg of fuel, which is circa 137 litres, but we also have to accelerate and brake (691kg of car+driver + up to 100kg/fuel) = 791kg at the start of a race.
Back then they had 540kg car+driver + up to 113kg of fuel, so only 653kg at the start.
You have to wonder how much faster the current crop of F1 cars would be if they were allowed to just bin the electric stuff and run lighter, smaller cars with less power.
C
Eric Mc said:
Read this month's Nigel Roebuck column in Motor Sport. He mentions the gradual slowing down of F1 cars and echoes my comment that it is nothing new. He points out that most of the F1 track lap records are now getting on for a decade old.
I think it's a bit more insidious than that.We're coming to a point where a Le Mans LMP1 prototype and an F1 car aren't much different - just open versus closed cockpit and different tyres.
CraigyMc said:
Eric Mc said:
Read this month's Nigel Roebuck column in Motor Sport. He mentions the gradual slowing down of F1 cars and echoes my comment that it is nothing new. He points out that most of the F1 track lap records are now getting on for a decade old.
I think it's a bit more insidious than that.We're coming to a point where a Le Mans LMP1 prototype and an F1 car aren't much different - just open versus closed cockpit and different tyres.
Jimmm said:
Listening to Midweek Motorsport they are under the impression this may change soon. I believe Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren et al are pushing for LMP1 to be changed to a hypercar formula making it more relevant to their brands.
Yup.F1 cars got a lot slower and heavier, and had their downforce cut over the winter with the new regs, and the P1's (that's LMP1) got a bit quicker and have more power and have a lot of new competitors pushing the game forward (they already have more downforce in absolute terms than the F1 cars, which is staggering), and now some of them have part time 4wd with e-motors on the front axle for exiting corners).
It'll be interesting to compare the F1 crowd with the LMP1 crowd at places like silverstone and spa this year.
I still think F1 maintains a far higher profile - despite the changes. It would take a few years (as it did in the early 1960s) for another form of motorsport to usurp F1's dominant position.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't think that those who run or control F1 would let that happen. They've invested 30 years making sure F1 reigns supreme - even to the extent of seeming to deliberately sabotage potential rival series.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't think that those who run or control F1 would let that happen. They've invested 30 years making sure F1 reigns supreme - even to the extent of seeming to deliberately sabotage potential rival series.
Eric Mc said:
I still think F1 maintains a far higher profile - despite the changes. It would take a few years (as it did in the early 1960s) for another form of motorsport to usurp F1's dominant position.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't think that those who run or control F1 would let that happen. They've invested 30 years making sure F1 reigns supreme - even to the extent of seeming to deliberately sabotage potential rival series.
What we need is a series where the only regulations are two seats and opening doors...I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't think that those who run or control F1 would let that happen. They've invested 30 years making sure F1 reigns supreme - even to the extent of seeming to deliberately sabotage potential rival series.
Justaredbadge said:
Eric Mc said:
I still think F1 maintains a far higher profile - despite the changes. It would take a few years (as it did in the early 1960s) for another form of motorsport to usurp F1's dominant position.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't think that those who run or control F1 would let that happen. They've invested 30 years making sure F1 reigns supreme - even to the extent of seeming to deliberately sabotage potential rival series.
What we need is a series where the only regulations are two seats and opening doors...I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't think that those who run or control F1 would let that happen. They've invested 30 years making sure F1 reigns supreme - even to the extent of seeming to deliberately sabotage potential rival series.
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