ways to make Formula 1 interesting again

[pits]

Reverse grid every other weekend for the top 10
Anyone who Qualifies in the top 10 on race 1 will start at the back then run 2 quali sessions for the remaining cars.
Manors starting at the front with Sauber and Mclaren on second and third row, etc.

have the 107% rule set on the fastest lap of the front runners or a system where if you're putting in significantly quicker times than your quali time the you either get a 10 second stop and go penalty or start from pitlane next race, in theory the last 10 laps or show your car should be light on fuel and you should be putting in quali times, if those are significantly quicker than what you qualified with the penalty is added.
So
You qualify 11th on purpose and your lap time is 1:21:280 at Mexico, but you end up first putting in lap times of 1:18:580 then you receive the penalty as your car at the end should be as close to qualifying spec when parked at parc ferme.

Don't get me wrong there would be other logistics to work around like not being able to adjust aero at a pit stop, once the car is set, it is set.

And it also has the potential for hilarious chaos at the first corner

[Adrian W]

I had dinner this evening with some friends all very involved in cars, the consensus was the best thing to do was remove the wings, it cuts the aero instantly and make close racing and following much easier.

[Blib]

Adrian W said:

I had dinner this evening with some friends all very involved in cars, the consensus was the best thing to do was remove the wings, it cuts the aero instantly and make close racing and following much easier.

I was about to suggest exactly that. No wings, wiiiide tyres. Huge power.

[zombeh]

More CFD, more wind tunnel time, actual testing of actual cars on actual circuits.
Fewer restrictions on what you can develop on the power units.
Stable rules.

More even distribution of the prize money to pay for the above.

Some actual consistent enforcement of track limits, whether that's achieved by throwing around time penalties for putting the whole car over the white line or by deterring them with Austrian GP kerbs that rip the suspension off or gravel traps doesn't really matter that much. I blame Jean Alesi for that though, I swear it was always him that had all four wheels off the track onto the start straight at Magny Cours til they gave in and put concrete on it and it's just crept from that one corner to the whole runoff of every circuit in the world.

[S0 What]

hairyben said:

Adrian W said:

Clearly you didn't see Rosberg and mansel banging wheels at brands, 86 European GP I think

Actually no I was aged 7 and of a family of limited means, but I did not say wheel bashing doesn't and didn't happen.

you can make a montage of race highlights from any particular year and make F1 look something it isn't on a typical day.

85 brands was the european grand prix mansel and rosberg were team mates that year so no wheel banging.

Brands 86 was the british gran prix (laffite broke both legs and the race was susspended for an hour or so) Mansel and Rosberg were williams and McLaren respectivly.
It was an OK race, some good moments some really exciting moments and some horrific moments but mainly the usuall not a lot happening on track once the race was restarted, strange to remember a bit of wheel banging (and it was like 2 touches as Mansel flew past Rosberg and dissapeared off into the dstance) and not a driver ending his career but there you go? not my idea of exciting or something we want to return to.

both are on utube if you fancy a watch

Edited by S0 What on Wednesday 2nd November 00:13

[S0 What]

Adrian W said:

I had dinner this evening with some friends all very involved in cars, the consensus was the best thing to do was remove the wings, it cuts the aero instantly and make close racing and following much easier.

This i will happyly agree with (ish) single plane wings on the front and rear, the downside will be slower cornering of course and more tyre wear, of course then everyone will moan about how it's become a tyre oriented formula and moaning once the teams get thiers heads around the new formular and start saving tyres,,, again.
Manual gearboxes will bring some driver skill back into it but is a missed gear any more artificial than DRS ? or a missed DRS if your name is Felipe
By the way not picking on you it's just you make the most posts is all



i really need to learn to spell ! edit edit edit

Edited by S0 What on Wednesday 2nd November 00:29

[S0 What]

SeeFive said:

It is very easy to level the rose tinted specs accusation, and in some cases very valid, but to contend a few of your boldly and profanely stated points...

MissChief said:

I'm not going to quote individual posters but will make a few points.

Refuelling is boring. The facts back this up. More passes are made on track (DRS assisted I'll concede) than when there was refuelling. Surely passes on track are what people want to see?

Really. Seeing one car made artificially faster than another by virtue of being one second behind simply driving past another car on the straight is what you want to see? Not me. The "good old days" as you called them had drivers outbraking other drivers, or slipstreaming on the straights. Stuff that takes skill rather than artificial mechanisms, and with less tech like proper gearboxes and tyres, other opportunities arose due to errors by drivers struggling wth the slightly more agricultural cars.

MissChief said:

Large capacity normally aspirated engines will NEVER come back. They bear no resemblance to anything any mass market manufacturer has for sale. F1 is too expensive as a pure marketing tool these days. There needs to be some semblance of R&D or carry over from F1 into car manufacturing. Besides, Renault stated unequivocally that if the NA engines stayed they'd leave. And Honda wouldn't come back either.

Really? Top end performance cars no longer exist from mainstream manufacturers? Porsche went out of business when I wasn't looking?

Edited by MissChief on Monday 31st October 21:54

The same porsche who's fastest ever car is a hybrid, while you wasn't looking they made the 919

[S0 What]

swisstoni said:

I think F1 jumped the shark when they decided to save the planet.

Yes there has to be some relevance to modern motoring concerns to keep the manufacturers happy, but this is F1 ffs, not some hyper-mileing endurance test.
Nobody really cares about the amazing feats of engineering going on under the covers. They sound like crap and one of the most famous combo of car and engine maker still can't get their fking set up to work after about 3 years of trying.

Cancel the Greenpeace subs and let's get back to Formula 1 !!!

Famous doesn't make them good though does it ? McLaren have won the same amount of championships without a honda as they did with it and after that honda didn't exactly do very well at all in fact about as badly as they are doing now.
As for
"Nobody really cares about the amazing feats of engineering going on under the covers"
really ?? this is formula one, the pinnacle of motorsport and engineering exellence, what goes on under the covers IS what formular one is all about and allways has been
you cant get back to what it was whilst ignoring what it was and is

Edited by S0 What on Wednesday 2nd November 00:23

[Adrian W]

S0 What said:

85 brands was the european grand prix mansel and rosberg were team mates that year so no wheel banging.

Brands 86 was the british gran prix (laffite broke both legs and the race was susspended for an hour or so) Mansel and Rosberg were williams and McLaren respectivly.
It was an OK race, some good moments some really exciting moments and some horrific moments but mainly the usuall not a lot happening on track once the race was restarted, strange to remember a bit of wheel banging (and it was like 2 touches as Mansel flew past Rosberg and dissapeared off into the dstance) and not a driver ending his career but there you go? not my idea of exciting or something we want to return to.

both are on utube if you fancy a watch

Edited by S0 What on Wednesday 2nd November 00:13

As I said "I think" it didn't really matter but I've now checked, it was 1985 and Senna/Rosberg, I was there

[PixelpeepS3]

Muzzer79 said:

PixelpeepS3 said:

sorry - serious reply...

Bring back refueling
Bring back V8/V10's
Points for laps completed in quali
Extra points for fastest lap of race

I'm interested to know how these would make F1 more interesting, particularly the first two.

Refueling was pretty pointless as the strategists got it nailed to the point that a differing fuel strategy from optimum was pointless.

V8's/V10's - this seems a recurring theme on these pages. Why? How would a different, older tech engine make the sport more interesting?

Someone earlier called for 1000bhp V12's. Does the 950bhp hybrid engine in Lewis' Mercedes not do exactly the same thing?

Sure, the V12 would undoubtedly sound better - I still have fond memories of hearing Alesi's Ferrari 412 T2 wailing around Silverstone in 1995 and I wasn't even at the circuit yet.

However, as a spectacle, changing the engine would do nothing other than change the balance of performance (potentially)

The last two points, I am in the camp of people who don't like the idea of championships being won for things other than completing the race.

V8/V10's for the noise, the experience, the romance. - it would make more people want to go see it, it would sound better on the tv (remember the audi R8 ad?!) - no real petrol head gets excited over hybrid unless it is wrapped in something shouty (and not artificially shouty either!)

Refueling adds another dimension to strategy and lighter cars vs heavier cars will = more overtaking.

remember all those races when drivers were quick off the line then we discovered they needed to come in on lap 4 to refuel ? - only then to have to retake the cars they had passed etc...

As previously mentioned - the sight of a V8 roaring away from the pits with a fuel hose, a couple of mechanics and a large fire hanging off the back is quite exciting.

Also, how many times did they have trouble connecting/releasing the fuel hose?

ANYTHING that adds uncertainty into a race will add excitement - at the moment it just seems like a parade and the only real overtakes are happening in the pits.

[Dr Z]

PixelpeepS3 said:

<snip>
Refueling adds another dimension to strategy and lighter cars vs heavier cars will = more overtaking.

remember all those races when drivers were quick off the line then we discovered they needed to come in on lap 4 to refuel ? - only then to have to retake the cars they had passed etc...

Disagree, refueling did not mean more overtaking on track...the opposite infact. A heavier car which was fast enough on the straights in clean air followed by a faster car sitting close by in dirty air does not make great wheel to wheel racing. I recommend reading Button's book on 2009 for countless examples...it could work with DRS but I'm presuming that the more loudly complaining fans here are against that.

PixelpeepS3 said:

As previously mentioned - the sight of a V8 roaring away from the pits with a fuel hose, a couple of mechanics and a large fire hanging off the back is quite exciting.

Also, how many times did they have trouble connecting/releasing the fuel hose?

ANYTHING that adds uncertainty into a race will add excitement - at the moment it just seems like a parade and the only real overtakes are happening in the pits.

It was quite exciting sitting on the armchair, not so sure it was exciting in the pitlane. Uncertainty for uncertainty's sake is artificial. Parade? "real overtakes"? You're having a laugh.

My suggestions:

1) Equitable distribution of the prize money

2) Technical regs kept stable for 5 years at least.

[Le Mans Visitor]

I like the points for fastest lap idea especially as they don't refuel. Thus meaning they will push hard towards the end of the race when at their lightest.

[Muzzer79]

PixelpeepS3 said:

Muzzer79 said:

PixelpeepS3 said:

sorry - serious reply...

Bring back refueling
Bring back V8/V10's
Points for laps completed in quali
Extra points for fastest lap of race

I'm interested to know how these would make F1 more interesting, particularly the first two.

Refueling was pretty pointless as the strategists got it nailed to the point that a differing fuel strategy from optimum was pointless.

V8's/V10's - this seems a recurring theme on these pages. Why? How would a different, older tech engine make the sport more interesting?

Someone earlier called for 1000bhp V12's. Does the 950bhp hybrid engine in Lewis' Mercedes not do exactly the same thing?

Sure, the V12 would undoubtedly sound better - I still have fond memories of hearing Alesi's Ferrari 412 T2 wailing around Silverstone in 1995 and I wasn't even at the circuit yet.

However, as a spectacle, changing the engine would do nothing other than change the balance of performance (potentially)

The last two points, I am in the camp of people who don't like the idea of championships being won for things other than completing the race.

V8/V10's for the noise, the experience, the romance. - it would make more people want to go see it, it would sound better on the tv (remember the audi R8 ad?!) - no real petrol head gets excited over hybrid unless it is wrapped in something shouty (and not artificially shouty either!)

Refueling adds another dimension to strategy and lighter cars vs heavier cars will = more overtaking.

remember all those races when drivers were quick off the line then we discovered they needed to come in on lap 4 to refuel ? - only then to have to retake the cars they had passed etc...

As previously mentioned - the sight of a V8 roaring away from the pits with a fuel hose, a couple of mechanics and a large fire hanging off the back is quite exciting.

Also, how many times did they have trouble connecting/releasing the fuel hose?

ANYTHING that adds uncertainty into a race will add excitement - at the moment it just seems like a parade and the only real overtakes are happening in the pits.

Engines - you're confusing the small minority of petrol heads with the rest of the F1 fanbase. Most, don't care.

I have a passing interest in MotoGP like, I would say, a significant portion of their fans. I don't care what engines they run - I care about how spectacular the racing is and how much of a challenge the bike is to ride.

Refueling - you have a short memory. Lighter cars vs Heavier cars meant lighter cars getting stuck behind heavier cars, unable to overtake because they couldn't run in dirty air.

Refueling was in place from 1994 to 2010. I can recall one incident where the fuel hose was still attached and the driver drove off - good 'ol Phil Massa in Singapore 2008.
For the vast majority of the time; refueling just meant a longer pitstop.


The sport needs to look forwards, not backwards. Hybrids are powerful and relevant to future car transport. Your E63 or M5 may be a socking great petrol V8 now but in 10 years time, it won't be.
F1 needs stability and fairer distribution of revenue.

[spats]

It is really simple:

KevinCamaroSS said:

For me it is quite simple. Reduce aero significantly and increase mechanical grip. Job done.

This.

That's why I think BTCC can be more exciting than F1. I know they can bash each other and get away with it, but the fact that the aero doesn't take a big hit when behind another car means they don't need gimmicks to over take.

More mech grip, less aero. Bigger stronger tyres to allow the drivers to push for more than half a lap and withstand a lock up or two so they have a chance at squeezing by someone locked up in spectacular fashion without then suffering a knackered tyre.

Points for fastest lap, points for most places made up during the race too.

But one thing that wont change is the big engines are gone. Yes we mostly wish they hadn't but they have gone the same as Merc or Renault adding their names to an engine which blows up every few races. Even Honda are stopping that now!

[Derek Smith]

For a number of years I ran a Fantasy F1 at work. To make things more interesting there were points for FTD, 1pt for every place made up on the grid position with an extra 4 for the one who made up the most (if equal then points divided, with three each got 1pt), points for grid position in reverse. Points were awarded for finishing position in reverse, so 24 for first, 1 for last. If a collision leaving both stranded, then both got the lower points, ie, if running 10th and 11th at the time, both would get 11.

It seemed to make things more interesting as participants increased no end. Any good?

[hairyben]

Derek Smith said:

For a number of years I ran a Fantasy F1 at work. To make things more interesting there were points for FTD, 1pt for every place made up on the grid position with an extra 4 for the one who made up the most (if equal then points divided, with three each got 1pt), points for grid position in reverse. Points were awarded for finishing position in reverse, so 24 for first, 1 for last. If a collision leaving both stranded, then both got the lower points, ie, if running 10th and 11th at the time, both would get 11.

It seemed to make things more interesting as participants increased no end. Any good?

So if say a manor runs a long 1st stint from it's natural habitat to get to a 10th place they can't keep untill the race ends and the strats play out, they could "c(r)ash out" instead?

Seems like fun ideas for a game based around F1 especially if you can chop/change drivers after qualli but not sure if the ideas would transfer, there'd certainly be many allegations of match fixing.

[RichardM5]

Blib said:

Adrian W said:

I had dinner this evening with some friends all very involved in cars, the consensus was the best thing to do was remove the wings, it cuts the aero instantly and make close racing and following much easier.

I was about to suggest exactly that. No wings, wiiiide tyres. Huge power.

Yep, as has been said a few times in the thread, cut aero and increase mechanical grip. Using bloody great wings that generate significantly more down force than the weight of the car has no bearing on road car technology and just make following closely impossible, better engines and better tyres do.

[Dave Hedgehog]

allow ground effect so running nose to tail is not a problem (indy cars do it at 240mph)

bring back V10s so we can get the noise again

bin the PC bullcrap driving and overtaking rules book, replace with one rule - if you hit someone or cause someone to crash / damage their car you get black flagged

add weight to a car every time it gets a podium

[Henry Fiddleton]

Competition.

Remove the one dominant team, and it would have been a different story perhaps over the last 10 years ( Red bull + Merc). The year in between the Ferrari were good due to Mclaren vs Ferrari

The racing other than the top two has been great this year.

Balance of Power, weight/ballast, allow in season engine development etc. The v8s had a period of equalisation, I think Renault were allowed to modify for more power – why doesn’t this happen today?

[Derek Smith]

hairyben said:

So if say a manor runs a long 1st stint from it's natural habitat to get to a 10th place they can't keep untill the race ends and the strats play out, they could "c(r)ash out" instead?

Seems like fun ideas for a game based around F1 especially if you can chop/change drivers after qualli but not sure if the ideas would transfer, there'd certainly be many allegations of match fixing.

The success of the game was the cause of its downfall. It went across departments and when we got near to 250 combatants, at £5 each, a ranker, or something spelt similarly, decided that it was 'dangerous' and I was ordered to pay back the contributions and cease forthwith.

I continued to run the game, nominating the leaders and such, and the ranker got shirty, saying that I was doing it deliberately to annoy him. No games of chance were allowed. I argued over whether it was chance or skill, and he said he didn't agree with me that it was the latter - which it obviously was. I used to be the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries inspector for my force. When I pointed out his opinion was of no account because no one was paying it got a bit silly.

The reason I started the game, with just 35 players the first year, was to get an idea of how to use Excel. The calculations were rather complicated, with an average in one calculation, but once established it all went well. I used to pull a table down off of a particular website - forgotten its name now - and paste them in: qually, or rather grid, and finish. The only thing I had to enter by hand was the FTD. Near the end of the season they changed the format and it wouldn't paste directly. There was someone in the IT dept who I was friendly with and I asked him if he could sort it. He got 'caught' by his boss and then the whole of the department joined the next season. That's when it sort of mushroomed.

From there being just two nerds in my department, the little game made everyone watch the races, or at least follow the results. We used to have conversations abut the previous race. I got phone calls from Chichester to Gatwick. I think the protection of the F1 logo and other restrictions hurt the sport, limiting supporters and those who might take an interest.

Players would ask all sorts of difficult questions, why this, why that, things that had not occurred to me. There would be expectations of performance, an appreciation of tactics and bewilderment as to why X did Y. It increased my enjoyment of the sport. I had to think.