The Official 2016 German Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
Gary C said:
Yes, that's when I really lost respect for Schumacher, he could have enabled Ferrari to get a wdc that year, but because it wasn't him, he did the bare minimum. If he had finished higher and took points away from the eventual winner, Irvine would of had it.
What a sod.
Hold on, let me understand this. What a sod.
Schumacher came back for two races at the end of 1999.
You lost respect for Schumacher because he handed Irvine the win in Malaysia and then Irvine crashed in quali in Japan scuppering his own chance at the championship.
So moving aside and gifting his win is doing the bare minimum. And I suppose Schumacher magnetically forced Irvine to hit the wall in Japan?
I love it when people make bold statements completely forgetting what actually happened..
He may not have liked doing it but Schumacher did play the team game. So you are angry at him for what he was thinking..?? Wow!
Edited by cgt2 on Tuesday 2nd August 14:41
Europa1 said:
Quickmoose said:
VladD said:
Derek Smith said:
WEC is thrilling to watch. It has a degree of support that has not been there for some time. A resurgent closed wheel formula and a struggling open-wheeler might mean that no one of ability wants FOM.
Just a shame you have to get Sky to access it.I keep forgetting about C4OD. I'll have to research.
I tried getting live coverage with the WEC app, but it took my money and gave me nothing. I think I must be married to it now.
cgt2 said:
VladD said:
I'm a Hamilton supporter, but I still like Nico. You can't blame him for being a bit arsey. He's team mate to a twilight Schumacher and beats him easily, but isn't in a good enough car. Then he gets a good enough car and gets Hamilton as a team mate.
If he'd had the good car when he was team mate to Schumacher, he could be a multiple WDC.
I know it's all ifs and buts, but it just goes to show the fine margins that can make a huge difference to your career.
If anyone really studied the comparative performance of Rosberg and Schumacher in 2012, MS was actually performing better for most of the year. The points table did also reflect this until mid season. If he'd had the good car when he was team mate to Schumacher, he could be a multiple WDC.
I know it's all ifs and buts, but it just goes to show the fine margins that can make a huge difference to your career.
MS had a lot of unreliability and made a couple of mistakes of his own but I remember watching the split times and more often than not that year MS was in front, Rosberg was ahead in 2010 and 2011 though.
Over the three years, Rosberg outqualified Schumacher 40/18 but they were certainly closer in 2012. You couldn't say Schumacher was significantly better in the races, but certainly on par. The car was also the least reliable in the 2010-2012 period, as there were less races that both cars finished in 2012 than 2010 or 2011.
| Qualifying | 2010 | 2011 | 2012 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Rosberg | 7.3 (+/- 2.9) | 7.5 (+/- 4.1) | 9.5 (+/- 4.8) |
| Schumacher | 9.4 (+/- 2.7) | 10.3 (+/- 4.0) | 9.1 (+/- 5.2) |
| Race | 2010 | 2011 | 2012 |
| Rosberg | 6.9 (+/- 3.8) | 7.3 (+/- 2.3) | 10.6 (+/- 3.6) |
| Schumacher | 8.8 (+/- 3.2) | 8.5 (+/- 4.0) | 9.5 (+/- 5.6) |
The numbers are average qualifying/race classified positions (+/- standard deviation). For the race data, I only included races when both drivers finished.
To do the same thing for Rosberg vs Hamilton, we get this:
| Qualifying | 2013 | 2014 | 2015 | 2016 |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rosberg | 4.4 (+/- 3.4) | 1.8 (+/- 1.0) | 2.1 (+/-1.3) | 1.7 (+/- 0.5) |
| Hamilton | 3.2 (+/- 2.6) | 2.2 (+/- 2.1) | 1.6 (+/- 1.0) | 2.3 (+/- 2.8) |
| Race | 2013 | 2014 | 2015 | 2016 |
| Rosberg | 5.9 (+/- 4.4) | 1.9 (+/- 0.8) | 2.1 (+/- 1.7) | 2.7 (+/- 2.1) |
| Hamilton | 5.3 (+/- 2.8) | 1.5 (+/- 0.8) | 1.8 (+/- 1.3) | 2.3 (+/- 2.0) |
NB: For 2016, I excluded qualifying results where there was an obvious problem (China and Russia). Hamilton leads the qualifying head-to-head 6-4 this year, but Rosberg is the more consistent one. Conclusion is that, whilst Rosberg can match and beat Hamilton in qualifying, he has not outraced him from 2013-Present. Based on this, the WDC for this year will be most likely Hamilton.
cgt2 said:
You just reminded me of the dark old days of the Mosley Kangaroo Court where he basically decided exactly what would happen. Judge jury and executioner.
It's ironic that he ended up becoming precisely what he accused Balestre of being when he was vying for the job. One thing we can say about Jean Todt is that he doesn't do that. Let's leave aside the question of whether he actually does anything...
The similarity is stunning. Both having pyrrhic victories in nazi civil cases, both best mates with Ecclestone for a while, both accused of bias in supporting one particular team or driver above others, both having problems with struggling teams that felt they were being ignored, both fighting off break-away series. The differences were more important I feel: Balestre was a success in business before he took the post and was an enthusiast for the sport. The stick that Balestre took over the start of the Japanese GP was similar to that Mosely took over the punishment for Benetton trying to burn down the executive stands, but the 'offences' were hardly similar in degree. It's ironic that he ended up becoming precisely what he accused Balestre of being when he was vying for the job. One thing we can say about Jean Todt is that he doesn't do that. Let's leave aside the question of whether he actually does anything...
The biggest difference was in PR. Mosely lost Rantzenberger and Senna on his watch, not to mention Barrichello's injuries and those to a marshal, one seriously injured, and to spectators. The worst weekend in 30-odd years. He reckoned that his biggest achievement was in increasing safety. Yet he was forced into doing that, and later obviously than he should. Talk about spin.
There was an article on Pitpass some years ago about the German GP fire and Carman's 'deathbed' confession on it. I looked a little while ago but it was no longer carried. Shame, it was a fascinating story. I suppose that was the judge, jury, executioner bit you were talking about. It was unbelievable at the time but the strange thing is that as further details have emerged the circumstances have proved to be even more outrageous than reported initially. The author of the article, Sylt I believe, was sycophantic, suggesting Mosley was brilliant/genius or even better, but he said something like:
'Mosely overstepped the law/probity/honesty, I forget the actual word, in 'fixing' the outcome of the disciplinary meeting.' Benetton should have been excluded from the results and their drivers, who benefited from rapid pit stops that were remarked on, so everyone knew there was something best, but no one did anything. Ecclestone, who was on the panel which judge the case and decided on punishment, discussed the matter with Carmen, Benetton's defence brief, the day before the hearing. It was much worse cheating than, for instance, Tyrrel's, but not punished to any great extent. It was enough to make you think that Mosely wanted to protect the fan base of Verstappen. And the team's other driver I suppose.
Compare the punishment for deliberately removing a safety feature from a rig distributing highly volatile fuel, which amounted to more or less telling them not to be naughty again, to the $100m for Dennis for being betrayed by a staff member. Very much like Ferrari were, but they sailed through it unscathed and benefiting from a competitor being removed.
I accept what you say about Todt. But not doing anything dreadful is a positive and I'd take that. If only Mosley could boast that. Mind you, Todt's authority under the FIA was more or less removed by Mosley. It gets little direct funding from F1 and can't threaten. Further, there seems to be no reluctance to support other forumulae that might threaten F1. Just as well, we might need them soon.
I think that the sport is safe as long as Ecclestone is around. AT least I hoe so. Once he goes there will be an unholy fight for supremacy. The new owners, the FIA, the bulk of the teams and Ferrari/RB/Merc will all want their cut.
Dr Z said:
As I recall, Schumacher had got to grips with the Pirelli tyres by 2012, but it was still a bit of a weird season to draw any conclusions on the head-to-head...doesn't stop me from having a look.
Over the three years, Rosberg outqualified Schumacher 40/18 but they were certainly closer in 2012. You couldn't say Schumacher was significantly better in the races, but certainly on par. The car was also the least reliable in the 2010-2012 period, as there were less races that both cars finished in 2012 than 2010 or 2011.
The numbers are average qualifying/race classified positions (+/- standard deviation). For the race data, I only included races when both drivers finished.
To do the same thing for Rosberg vs Hamilton, we get this:
NB: For 2016, I excluded qualifying results where there was an obvious problem (China and Russia). Hamilton leads the qualifying head-to-head 6-4 this year, but Rosberg is the more consistent one. Conclusion is that, whilst Rosberg can match and beat Hamilton in qualifying, he has not outraced him from 2013-Present. Based on this, the WDC for this year will be most likely Hamilton.
Very interesting, thank you. I remember Schumacher's lap times were very good in that season as you are right he was much more comfortable with the tyres (Monaco pole too which got docked) and I think it was at the halfway point when he was about to overhaul Rosberg in the points. But he had a lot of bad luck with unreliability and events such as Singapore which were his own fault. As usual I think the hype masked the real story and it's a shame he didn't have a better final season.Over the three years, Rosberg outqualified Schumacher 40/18 but they were certainly closer in 2012. You couldn't say Schumacher was significantly better in the races, but certainly on par. The car was also the least reliable in the 2010-2012 period, as there were less races that both cars finished in 2012 than 2010 or 2011.
| Qualifying | 2010 | 2011 | 2012 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Rosberg | 7.3 (+/- 2.9) | 7.5 (+/- 4.1) | 9.5 (+/- 4.8) |
| Schumacher | 9.4 (+/- 2.7) | 10.3 (+/- 4.0) | 9.1 (+/- 5.2) |
| Race | 2010 | 2011 | 2012 |
| Rosberg | 6.9 (+/- 3.8) | 7.3 (+/- 2.3) | 10.6 (+/- 3.6) |
| Schumacher | 8.8 (+/- 3.2) | 8.5 (+/- 4.0) | 9.5 (+/- 5.6) |
The numbers are average qualifying/race classified positions (+/- standard deviation). For the race data, I only included races when both drivers finished.
To do the same thing for Rosberg vs Hamilton, we get this:
| Qualifying | 2013 | 2014 | 2015 | 2016 |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rosberg | 4.4 (+/- 3.4) | 1.8 (+/- 1.0) | 2.1 (+/-1.3) | 1.7 (+/- 0.5) |
| Hamilton | 3.2 (+/- 2.6) | 2.2 (+/- 2.1) | 1.6 (+/- 1.0) | 2.3 (+/- 2.8) |
| Race | 2013 | 2014 | 2015 | 2016 |
| Rosberg | 5.9 (+/- 4.4) | 1.9 (+/- 0.8) | 2.1 (+/- 1.7) | 2.7 (+/- 2.1) |
| Hamilton | 5.3 (+/- 2.8) | 1.5 (+/- 0.8) | 1.8 (+/- 1.3) | 2.3 (+/- 2.0) |
NB: For 2016, I excluded qualifying results where there was an obvious problem (China and Russia). Hamilton leads the qualifying head-to-head 6-4 this year, but Rosberg is the more consistent one. Conclusion is that, whilst Rosberg can match and beat Hamilton in qualifying, he has not outraced him from 2013-Present. Based on this, the WDC for this year will be most likely Hamilton.
Derek Smith said:
The similarity is stunning.
Yes the Pitpass article I remember and there was also some interesting material on something called Racefax at the time.I do remember Mosley could barely mask his intense hatred of Ron Dennis and it was obvious his zeal in Spygate was purely coming from personal animosity. Never quite understood why really, was it because Ron used to be a mechanic and was basically self made whilst Mosley came from a priveliged background or something deeper?
cgt2 said:
Hold on, let me understand this...
Can't speak for anyone else, and I don't remember the exact details, but I do have a very clear memory of thinking "Schumacher did that to make sure Irvine didn't win the WDC". There was a lot of discussion at the time and the overwhelming opinion was that Schumacher wanted to be the saviour of Ferrari who brought them back from the doldrums and Irvine would have stolen his thunder. As I said, I can't remember all the details but I remember the memory.
cgt2 said:
Yes the Pitpass article I remember and there was also some interesting material on something called Racefax at the time.
I do remember Mosley could barely mask his intense hatred of Ron Dennis and it was obvious his zeal in Spygate was purely coming from personal animosity. Never quite understood why really, was it because Ron used to be a mechanic and was basically self made whilst Mosley came from a priveliged background or something deeper?
I recall a story, it maybe true, that just before Ron had to face the press, Max said to Ron (along these lines) "of course, the fine is really only $1m. The rest is because you're such a ****".I do remember Mosley could barely mask his intense hatred of Ron Dennis and it was obvious his zeal in Spygate was purely coming from personal animosity. Never quite understood why really, was it because Ron used to be a mechanic and was basically self made whilst Mosley came from a priveliged background or something deeper?
M3ax said:
e21Mark said:
Watched the hi lights on the F1 website this morning. Just over 5 minutes, so am assuming it wasn't a particularly enthralling race? I though Rosberg didn't deserve the 5 sec penalty for geeing his elbows out. I hope he can take the fight to Hamilton but won't get my hopes up.
Depends who's highlights you watched I guess. Can't see how 5 mins can accurately reflect what happened.ClockworkCupcake said:
Can't speak for anyone else, and I don't remember the exact details, but I do have a very clear memory of thinking "Schumacher did that to make sure Irvine didn't win the WDC". There was a lot of discussion at the time and the overwhelming opinion was that Schumacher wanted to be the saviour of Ferrari who brought them back from the doldrums and Irvine would have stolen his thunder.
As I said, I can't remember all the details but I remember the memory.
The only thing he did (or did not as it turned out) was not want to come back. So he had an 'impure thought'. That was it. The media made a huge drama out of it as usual. But when he did come back he did his best to help Irvine, gifting him Malaysia.As I said, I can't remember all the details but I remember the memory.
From Wiki:
The first ever Malaysian GP was the host of the penultimate round, and Schumacher had recovered and replaced Salo for the race. Schumacher took pole ahead of Irvine, with Coulthard and Häkkinen third and fourth. Irvine quickly raced away, while Schumacher purposely slowed down to keep both McLarens behind. Coulthard got in front of Schumacher, only for his car to break down. Schumacher kept Häkkinen behind, and prevented him from challenging Irvine. Irvine won with Schumacher completing the Ferrari 1–2, forcing Häkkinen to settle for third.
After the race, the Ferrari cars were found to be illegal by an FIA official and were disqualified, which would have the effect of making Häkkinen the world champion. Ferrari appealed and the FIA Court of Appeal in Paris later ruled that the cars were not illegal and the Ferraris were reinstated.
Irvine led the championship with 70 points, and Häkkinen with 66 was 4 points behind. A win for either driver would give them the championship. Frentzen was third with 51, Coulthard fourth with 48, Schumacher fifth with 38 and Ralf sixth with 33. In the Constructors' Championship, Ferrari led with 118 points, and McLaren were second with 114; Jordan with 58 were a lonely third.
The championship decider was in Japan. Häkkinen qualified in second, behind Schumacher while Irvine crashed in qualifying and was only fifth. Häkkinen took the lead at the start, while Irvine was fourth behind Olivier Panis. Häkkinen and Schumacher got away, while Panis held up the others. Panis was dealt with at the first round of stops, but now Irvine was behind Coulthard's McLaren. Coulthard slowed his pace, and held Irvine up, and the gap to Häkkinen increased. Irvine was finally released when Coulthard spun off, but was well over a minute behind Häkkinen. Schumacher was within 5 second of Häkkinen, and piled on the pressure but Häkkinen kept him at bay to win the race and the championship. Schumacher was second, and third for Irvine was not enough for him, but was enough to win the Constructors' Championship for Ferrari.
Häkkinen, with 76 points, was the Drivers' Champion of 1999, his second successive championship. Irvine, who had battled with Häkkinen throughout the season, was 2 points behind with a total of 74. Frentzen, with 54 points in total, was third. Coulthard was fourth with 48 points, Michael Schumacher was fifth with 44 points, even though he missed over a third of the season with his broken leg, and his brother, Ralf Schumacher, finished sixth with 35. In the Constructors' Championship, Ferrari, with 128 points, were champions, beating second-placed McLaren by 4 points. Jordan ended up in third with 61.
cgt2 said:
Derek Smith said:
The similarity is stunning.
Yes the Pitpass article I remember and there was also some interesting material on something called Racefax at the time.I do remember Mosley could barely mask his intense hatred of Ron Dennis and it was obvious his zeal in Spygate was purely coming from personal animosity. Never quite understood why really, was it because Ron used to be a mechanic and was basically self made whilst Mosley came from a priveliged background or something deeper?
But he more or less failed at everything he did: MARCH was successful but not through his mechanical know how. He studied lawyering but didn't make much of a success of it. In the end he got a job that didn't pay any money, a sort of internship in the FIA.
I'm told that he and Dennis came together at Brabham in the days before Ecclestone bought it. Perhaps Ron didn't doff his cap.
There seemed to be little love lost between the bloke who appeared to get where he was through influence (and Ecclestone rumour has it) and Dennis who started at the bottom, spannering, and became head of one of the most successful teams in F1. I can see why Maxey might get frazzled.
I've often wondered if Dennis did indeed pay the full $50m that was suggested. There was little crowing from Mosely, just a mention of some of the money going towards a charity or something, but nothing followed. I can't believe that Ron's lawyers didn't look for ways out. Perhaps he was paid to let the team manage itself.
Dennis, with Frank Williams, dominated great periods of the sport. He's in charge of a major motor vehicle manufacturer now, at least major for this country. All by himself as well.
I met Dennis once. I say met, but it was the first (I think, I've been to many) Goodwood FoS. He was in the #1 McLaren and about to go onto the hill from the paddock when a vehicle, I think a motor bike, crashed. He was there, at the head of the field. Not wanting to miss an opportunity, but ready for rejection (as always), I went up to him and thanked him for all the thrills and entertainment. He removed his glove and shook hands with me and chatted away, asking me questions. We talked of the car. Then his wife began to walk over, no doubt fearing for him, so off I went, with another handshake and his good wishes.
He seemed a real nice bloke away from microphones, and a bit of a nerd as well.
suffolk009 said:
I recall a story, it maybe true, that just before Ron had to face the press, Max said to Ron (along these lines) "of course, the fine is really only $1m. The rest is because you're such a ****".
That was the one. Exactly the kind of man you do not want to have in a position of authority!Derek Smith said:
That is accepted wisdom. Mosely's background was, let's say, chequered. Privileged but with a father who was despised by the majority of those who lived through the war, and a mother who was a Mitford girl, of Guinness heir fame. She wrote, or at least signed, some horrendous stuff for the post war reincarnation of the British union of fascists, the union movement, which Max was part of.
But he more or less failed at everything he did: MARCH was successful but not through his mechanical know how. He studied lawyering but didn't make much of a success of it. In the end he got a job that didn't pay any money, a sort of internship in the FIA.
I'm told that he and Dennis came together at Brabham in the days before Ecclestone bought it. Perhaps Ron didn't doff his cap.
There seemed to be little love lost between the bloke who appeared to get where he was through influence (and Ecclestone rumour has it) and Dennis who started at the bottom, spannering, and became head of one of the most successful teams in F1. I can see why Maxey might get frazzled.
I've often wondered if Dennis did indeed pay the full $50m that was suggested. There was little crowing from Mosely, just a mention of some of the money going towards a charity or something, but nothing followed. I can't believe that Ron's lawyers didn't look for ways out. Perhaps he was paid to let the team manage itself.
Dennis, with Frank Williams, dominated great periods of the sport. He's in charge of a major motor vehicle manufacturer now, at least major for this country. All by himself as well.
I met Dennis once. I say met, but it was the first (I think, I've been to many) Goodwood FoS. He was in the #1 McLaren and about to go onto the hill from the paddock when a vehicle, I think a motor bike, crashed. He was there, at the head of the field. Not wanting to miss an opportunity, but ready for rejection (as always), I went up to him and thanked him for all the thrills and entertainment. He removed his glove and shook hands with me and chatted away, asking me questions. We talked of the car. Then his wife began to walk over, no doubt fearing for him, so off I went, with another handshake and his good wishes.
He seemed a real nice bloke away from microphones, and a bit of a nerd as well.
Great post. Yes I've met 'Ronzo' twice, found him pleasant but a bit aloof, and also have two very good friends who have worked long stints at McLaren. But he more or less failed at everything he did: MARCH was successful but not through his mechanical know how. He studied lawyering but didn't make much of a success of it. In the end he got a job that didn't pay any money, a sort of internship in the FIA.
I'm told that he and Dennis came together at Brabham in the days before Ecclestone bought it. Perhaps Ron didn't doff his cap.
There seemed to be little love lost between the bloke who appeared to get where he was through influence (and Ecclestone rumour has it) and Dennis who started at the bottom, spannering, and became head of one of the most successful teams in F1. I can see why Maxey might get frazzled.
I've often wondered if Dennis did indeed pay the full $50m that was suggested. There was little crowing from Mosely, just a mention of some of the money going towards a charity or something, but nothing followed. I can't believe that Ron's lawyers didn't look for ways out. Perhaps he was paid to let the team manage itself.
Dennis, with Frank Williams, dominated great periods of the sport. He's in charge of a major motor vehicle manufacturer now, at least major for this country. All by himself as well.
I met Dennis once. I say met, but it was the first (I think, I've been to many) Goodwood FoS. He was in the #1 McLaren and about to go onto the hill from the paddock when a vehicle, I think a motor bike, crashed. He was there, at the head of the field. Not wanting to miss an opportunity, but ready for rejection (as always), I went up to him and thanked him for all the thrills and entertainment. He removed his glove and shook hands with me and chatted away, asking me questions. We talked of the car. Then his wife began to walk over, no doubt fearing for him, so off I went, with another handshake and his good wishes.
He seemed a real nice bloke away from microphones, and a bit of a nerd as well.
He is hard and intense as a boss, works very long hours and demands the best performance, but also very fair to staff and rewards them well. I have heard stories about how detail oriented he is which sounds like excessive OCD but I won't repeat them here for fear of getting my friend into trouble. As you say his achievements speak for themselves and he is the reason I am convinced McLaren will get back to the front.
From my memory ( was it really 17 years ago!!) Irvine lost the WDC when Ferrari decided to bring three tyres to the pit stop
As another aside, anyone rememver the Tv programme about Irvine? I remember them filming him going home to Ireland and his overalls on the washing line, and him riding a scooter into Monza and chatting up some girls in a Maser 3200GT. Not my favourite driver, but I loved his lifestyle!!
As another aside, anyone rememver the Tv programme about Irvine? I remember them filming him going home to Ireland and his overalls on the washing line, and him riding a scooter into Monza and chatting up some girls in a Maser 3200GT. Not my favourite driver, but I loved his lifestyle!!
cgt2 said:
Schumacher was within 5 second of Häkkinen, and piled on the pressure but Häkkinen kept him at bay to win the race and the championship. Schumacher was second, and third for Irvine was not enough for him, but was enough to win the Constructors' Championship for Ferrari.
Häkkinen, with 76 points, was the Drivers' Champion of 1999, his second successive championship. Irvine, who had battled with Häkkinen throughout the season, was 2 points behind with a total of 74. Frentzen, with 54 points in total, was third. Coulthard was fourth with 48 points, Michael Schumacher was fifth with 44 points, even though he missed over a third of the season with his broken leg, and his brother, Ralf Schumacher, finished sixth with 35. In the Constructors' Championship, Ferrari, with 128 points, were champions, beating second-placed McLaren by 4 points. Jordan ended up in third with 61.
I was thinking that if Schuey had retired just before the flag, it would have promoted Eddie to second, giving him an equal number of points to Mika - however, I've checked and in 1999, it was 10,6,4,3,2,1, (not 10,8,6,5,4,3,2,1) so the only way for Eddie to win the WDC was for Schuey to overtake Mika on track, relegating Mika to second, and giving Eddie a two-point advantage. Can't remember how hard Schuey was trying to take Mika though - did it look like he was trying as hard as he could?Häkkinen, with 76 points, was the Drivers' Champion of 1999, his second successive championship. Irvine, who had battled with Häkkinen throughout the season, was 2 points behind with a total of 74. Frentzen, with 54 points in total, was third. Coulthard was fourth with 48 points, Michael Schumacher was fifth with 44 points, even though he missed over a third of the season with his broken leg, and his brother, Ralf Schumacher, finished sixth with 35. In the Constructors' Championship, Ferrari, with 128 points, were champions, beating second-placed McLaren by 4 points. Jordan ended up in third with 61.
Nigel_O said:
I was thinking that if Schuey had retired just before the flag, it would have promoted Eddie to second, giving him an equal number of points to Mika - however, I've checked and in 1999, it was 10,6,4,3,2,1, (not 10,8,6,5,4,3,2,1) so the only way for Eddie to win the WDC was for Schuey to overtake Mika on track, relegating Mika to second, and giving Eddie a two-point advantage. Can't remember how hard Schuey was trying to take Mika though - did it look like he was trying as hard as he could?
My recollection was that, as you say, Mika needed to come 2nd for Irvine to win and I think he was on pretty good form that day. He did some interviews after winning the championship talking about his mindset in coming back from his accident and how his whole career crystallised into this one race. Irvine crashed in quali and was lucky to come third with Coulthard's retirement, in reality he was on for 4th. Schumacher and Hakkinen were nearly a lap ahead. As you say, even if MS had pulled off on the last corner and waited for Irvine it still wasn't enough.I think the right man won the championship that year, Irvine was definitely not more deserving than Hakkinen. And while I think Schumacher would not have been overjoyed if Irvine won, the comments that he didn't help are simply wrong and just manufactured by Schumi-haters. For a driver as obsessive about winning as him to hand over the win in Malaysia was a big thing in itself.
williamp said:
From my memory ( was it really 17 years ago!!) Irvine lost the WDC when Ferrari decided to bring three tyres to the pit stop
As another aside, anyone rememver the Tv programme about Irvine? I remember them filming him going home to Ireland and his overalls on the washing line, and him riding a scooter into Monza and chatting up some girls in a Maser 3200GT. Not my favourite driver, but I loved his lifestyle!!
Was that the one that opened on him waking up, getting out of bed, going up on deck and jumping overboard into the med.As another aside, anyone rememver the Tv programme about Irvine? I remember them filming him going home to Ireland and his overalls on the washing line, and him riding a scooter into Monza and chatting up some girls in a Maser 3200GT. Not my favourite driver, but I loved his lifestyle!!
Yeah, nice life.
williamp said:
From my memory ( was it really 17 years ago!!) Irvine lost the WDC when Ferrari decided to bring three tyres to the pit stop
As another aside, anyone rememver the Tv programme about Irvine? I remember them filming him going home to Ireland and his overalls on the washing line, and him riding a scooter into Monza and chatting up some girls in a Maser 3200GT. Not my favourite driver, but I loved his lifestyle!!
Yes I remember that - the boat - cruising around the coast ( north west Italy ) the model girl friend with whom he had a daughter - they weren't together but did holidays for the young daughter- his sister calling him Edmund - the Ferrari 288 GTO in the property in Ireland - he seemed genuine and I warmed to him - didn't he invite the girls to a party and managed to add another notch?As another aside, anyone rememver the Tv programme about Irvine? I remember them filming him going home to Ireland and his overalls on the washing line, and him riding a scooter into Monza and chatting up some girls in a Maser 3200GT. Not my favourite driver, but I loved his lifestyle!!
HustleRussell said:
Critically, Hamilton took a conventional looking line, not much different to any other lap. He turned in where you’d expect him to, apexed at the right spot and he tracked out at the right spot. That Rosberg happened to be alongside was unfortunate for Rosberg. I seem to remember Hamilton dismissing this as ‘understeer’, albeit with a wry smile. In the melee of turn one, with cold tyres, changeable conditions... you could almost believe him.
What Rosberg doesn’t seem to understand is that you can’t just plough straight into corner applying no steering lock whatsoever, well past a normal turn-in point, with not a hint of a lock up, not even an attempt at an apex, right up to the edge of the circuit which no other car has troubled all weekend, without it looking horribly obvious. When he dismisses that as ‘understeer’, and adds that he was ‘on full lock’, you could not possibly believe that he didn’t mean to run the other car off the circuit. It’s insulting to the intelligence of the whole circus including the stewards and us, the viewers.
I think that you're being generous: he understands perfectly and that's why he claimed to be applying 'full lock' when he hadn't even tried. He knows the appropriate thing to do is maintain a racing line and he thinks he doesn't gain enough advantage by doing so.What Rosberg doesn’t seem to understand is that you can’t just plough straight into corner applying no steering lock whatsoever, well past a normal turn-in point, with not a hint of a lock up, not even an attempt at an apex, right up to the edge of the circuit which no other car has troubled all weekend, without it looking horribly obvious. When he dismisses that as ‘understeer’, and adds that he was ‘on full lock’, you could not possibly believe that he didn’t mean to run the other car off the circuit. It’s insulting to the intelligence of the whole circus including the stewards and us, the viewers.
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