Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?

[TheDeuce]

Yazza54 said:

This thread really does just keep going round in circles.

I think we can firmly put to bed that Jamie isn't going near F1

The Jess Hawkins thing was a stunt

Abbi Pulling is our only female UK hope, she's talented and the right age but she needs to get away from the academy and beat the boys in f4, 3, 2.. the recipe to get to F1 hasn't changed. It's amazing that most people don't see F1 academy for what it is, to pacify those who think women aren't getting a shot.

The reality is those years in formula woman for Jamie were the nail in her F1 coffin. Not that I think she was good enough anyway. I think Abbi could be but she needs to not waste any time in a championship that means fk all and prove herself.

Let's just follow them and see how they get on.

The F1 academy replaces F4, and delivers a fully funded formula European seat for the winner, who then moves on to FIA F3.

The thing that sets F1 academy apart compared to the failed W series is that progression is baked in and fully funded, and it does put the winner on the traditional path to F1.

Whether the winner gets very far down that path is yet to be seen - but it guarantees at least one person year has a go.

[Forester1965]

I find the whole women only series incredibly patronising.

Poke some funding towards the earlier years and awareness amongst younger girls rather than fencing them off in bloody F3 cars so you can tick a box.

[TheDeuce]

Forester1965 said:

I find the whole women only series incredibly patronising.

Poke some funding towards the earlier years and awareness amongst younger girls rather than fencing them off in bloody F3 cars so you can tick a box.

I agree and dislike segregation of the sport.

But they're not in F3 cars and the baked in progression does at least direct the winners back onto the traditional mixed sex path towards F1.

[Forester1965]

Ah, worse then. Half the power of an F3 car. May as well give them a 1993 Nova and a pat on the head.

[isaldiri]

Would be a stupid means of so-called 'progression' if F4 was much more competitive than F1 academy (which is probably rather likely) so the winning the latter and landing up in F3 just means ending up all at sea and being hammered.

[Sandpit Steve]

Forester1965 said:

Ah, worse then. Half the power of an F3 car. May as well give them a 1993 Nova and a pat on the head.

W Series tried running the girls in F3 cars, it failed because it was too expensive and there was a large field spread. F4, with graduation to Euro F3, makes more sense - but they need the Academy girls to be 16 and 17, rather than 21 and 20 as are the two front-runners this year. Abbi and Doriane should really have been doing F4 cars four or five years ago.

[Forester1965]

Just put the money into sponsoring girls' progression through regular series instead of the performative nonsense we have now. Remove girls' funding restrictions, the sport becomes a meritocracy and the best can rise through the ranks (whatever sex they are).

[Yazza54]

TheDeuce said:

Yazza54 said:

This thread really does just keep going round in circles.

I think we can firmly put to bed that Jamie isn't going near F1

The Jess Hawkins thing was a stunt

Abbi Pulling is our only female UK hope, she's talented and the right age but she needs to get away from the academy and beat the boys in f4, 3, 2.. the recipe to get to F1 hasn't changed. It's amazing that most people don't see F1 academy for what it is, to pacify those who think women aren't getting a shot.

The reality is those years in formula woman for Jamie were the nail in her F1 coffin. Not that I think she was good enough anyway. I think Abbi could be but she needs to not waste any time in a championship that means fk all and prove herself.

Let's just follow them and see how they get on.

The F1 academy replaces F4, and delivers a fully funded formula European seat for the winner, who then moves on to FIA F3.

The thing that sets F1 academy apart compared to the failed W series is that progression is baked in and fully funded, and it does put the winner on the traditional path to F1.

Whether the winner gets very far down that path is yet to be seen - but it guarantees at least one person year has a go.

Still only an opportunity for one lucky winner.

I just struggle to get behind it or really have any sympathy in general. It's made out like boys in general have a better opportunity to go places in racing, the reality is there's just more boys that get into it at an early age.

What it takes is talent and money, these girls are getting opportunities that a lot of lads will never get just because of what's between their legs, and it's easier for them to get there because it's such a small pool of talent. If this is the pinnacle of female racing why such a disparity in pace through the field in equal machinery? It's bks.

The money is the biggest issue, you can never really be 100% certain that you are seeing the best raw talent in F1 because there's probably lots of drivers (male, female, non binary or toaster etc) that won't ever get to develop their skills because they don't have rich parents. Sucks but it is what it is. Lots of lads out there that could go far won't, and as someone said earlier it's not like the old days where you can get discovered in your mid 20s or have the benefit of time to plug away and get there on merit.

These days if your career trajectory isn't taking you to F1 by your late teens you're on the dumpster pile. It really is a bit fked up - for everyone.

Edited by Yazza54 on Thursday 16th May 10:23

[MustangGT]

Yazza54 said:

Abbi Pulling is our only female UK hope, she's talented and the right age but she needs to get away from the academy and beat the boys in f4, 3, 2.. t

I agree with most of your post, but Abbi Pulling has not shown any sort of exceptional skills. In Formula W she was way behind Jamie Chadwick.

[Yazza54]

MustangGT said:

Yazza54 said:

Abbi Pulling is our only female UK hope, she's talented and the right age but she needs to get away from the academy and beat the boys in f4, 3, 2.. t

I agree with most of your post, but Abbi Pulling has not shown any sort of exceptional skills. In Formula W she was way behind Jamie Chadwick.

She's younger and less experienced, appears to be coming good now.. but I fear even 21 is too old..

[MustangGT]

Yazza54 said:

MustangGT said:

Yazza54 said:

Abbi Pulling is our only female UK hope, she's talented and the right age but she needs to get away from the academy and beat the boys in f4, 3, 2.. t

I agree with most of your post, but Abbi Pulling has not shown any sort of exceptional skills. In Formula W she was way behind Jamie Chadwick.

She's younger and less experienced, appears to be coming good now.. but I fear even 21 is too old..

21? Yes, probably too old. Jamie was only 20 when she won the first W series championship.

[TheDeuce]

Yazza54 said:

TheDeuce said:

Yazza54 said:

This thread really does just keep going round in circles.

I think we can firmly put to bed that Jamie isn't going near F1

The Jess Hawkins thing was a stunt

Abbi Pulling is our only female UK hope, she's talented and the right age but she needs to get away from the academy and beat the boys in f4, 3, 2.. the recipe to get to F1 hasn't changed. It's amazing that most people don't see F1 academy for what it is, to pacify those who think women aren't getting a shot.

The reality is those years in formula woman for Jamie were the nail in her F1 coffin. Not that I think she was good enough anyway. I think Abbi could be but she needs to not waste any time in a championship that means fk all and prove herself.

Let's just follow them and see how they get on.

The F1 academy replaces F4, and delivers a fully funded formula European seat for the winner, who then moves on to FIA F3.

The thing that sets F1 academy apart compared to the failed W series is that progression is baked in and fully funded, and it does put the winner on the traditional path to F1.

Whether the winner gets very far down that path is yet to be seen - but it guarantees at least one person year has a go.

Still only an opportunity for one lucky winner.

I just struggle to get behind it or really have any sympathy in general. It's made out like boys in general have a better opportunity to go places in racing, the reality is there's just more boys that get into it at an early age.

What it takes is talent and money, these girls are getting opportunities that a lot of lads will never get just because of what's between their legs, and it's easier for them to get there because it's such a small pool of talent. If this is the pinnacle of female racing why such a disparity in pace through the field in equal machinery? It's bks.

The money is the biggest issue, you can never really be 100% certain that you are seeing the best raw talent in F1 because there's probably lots of drivers (male, female, non binary or toaster etc) that won't ever get to develop their skills because they don't have rich parents. Sucks but it is what it is. Lots of lads out there that could go far won't, and as someone said earlier it's not like the old days where you can get discovered in your mid 20s or have the benefit of time to plug away and get there on merit.

These days if your career trajectory isn't taking you to F1 by your late teens you're on the dumpster pile. It really is a bit fked up - for everyone.

Edited by Yazza54 on Thursday 16th May 10:23

Yes, that's all true enough - although if you're a generational talent but basically penniless, if you find a way to showcase your talent early on, people are watching... An F1 talent spotter will back someone special and cover the costs for the sake of a future ROI, see Lewis Hamilton as a rare but highly relevant example.

I agree that it's not 'fair' that the girls are getting a leg up in terms of support to get to Euro/FIA F3 level, I also agree that in general segregation is outdated and regressive. The theory is that both things are justified in this instance because by artificially getting more ladies racing today, more girls will be encouraged to go karting tomorrow and in the future will increase the female talent pool to such an extent that stars will emerge who can compete with the guys on merit every step of the way. Personally I very much doubt it will be effective, I don't see a few ladies racing relatively uncompetitively being a motivator for thousands of girls to suddenly start karting. Cynically I think it's a clever way of justifying the artificial effort being made to get women better represented in motorsport.. But it is what it is, and officially the line is that segregation is justified in order to attract future talent.

[Yazza54]

TheDeuce said:

Yazza54 said:

TheDeuce said:

Yazza54 said:

This thread really does just keep going round in circles.

I think we can firmly put to bed that Jamie isn't going near F1

The Jess Hawkins thing was a stunt

Abbi Pulling is our only female UK hope, she's talented and the right age but she needs to get away from the academy and beat the boys in f4, 3, 2.. the recipe to get to F1 hasn't changed. It's amazing that most people don't see F1 academy for what it is, to pacify those who think women aren't getting a shot.

The reality is those years in formula woman for Jamie were the nail in her F1 coffin. Not that I think she was good enough anyway. I think Abbi could be but she needs to not waste any time in a championship that means fk all and prove herself.

Let's just follow them and see how they get on.

The F1 academy replaces F4, and delivers a fully funded formula European seat for the winner, who then moves on to FIA F3.

The thing that sets F1 academy apart compared to the failed W series is that progression is baked in and fully funded, and it does put the winner on the traditional path to F1.

Whether the winner gets very far down that path is yet to be seen - but it guarantees at least one person year has a go.

Still only an opportunity for one lucky winner.

I just struggle to get behind it or really have any sympathy in general. It's made out like boys in general have a better opportunity to go places in racing, the reality is there's just more boys that get into it at an early age.

What it takes is talent and money, these girls are getting opportunities that a lot of lads will never get just because of what's between their legs, and it's easier for them to get there because it's such a small pool of talent. If this is the pinnacle of female racing why such a disparity in pace through the field in equal machinery? It's bks.

The money is the biggest issue, you can never really be 100% certain that you are seeing the best raw talent in F1 because there's probably lots of drivers (male, female, non binary or toaster etc) that won't ever get to develop their skills because they don't have rich parents. Sucks but it is what it is. Lots of lads out there that could go far won't, and as someone said earlier it's not like the old days where you can get discovered in your mid 20s or have the benefit of time to plug away and get there on merit.

These days if your career trajectory isn't taking you to F1 by your late teens you're on the dumpster pile. It really is a bit fked up - for everyone.

Edited by Yazza54 on Thursday 16th May 10:23

Yes, that's all true enough - although if you're a generational talent but basically penniless, if you find a way to showcase your talent early on, people are watching... An F1 talent spotter will back someone special and cover the costs for the sake of a future ROI, see Lewis Hamilton as a rare but highly relevant example.

I agree that it's not 'fair' that the girls are getting a leg up in terms of support to get to Euro/FIA F3 level, I also agree that in general segregation is outdated and regressive. The theory is that both things are justified in this instance because by artificially getting more ladies racing today, more girls will be encouraged to go karting tomorrow and in the future will increase the female talent pool to such an extent that stars will emerge who can compete with the guys on merit every step of the way. Personally I very much doubt it will be effective, I don't see a few ladies racing relatively uncompetitively being a motivator for thousands of girls to suddenly start karting. Cynically I think it's a clever way of justifying the artificial effort being made to get women better represented in motorsport.. But it is what it is, and officially the line is that segregation is justified in order to attract future talent.

A pennyless generational talent wouldn't even be able to afford karting at a level where there's anyone watching that can help them. This is the problem. Motorsport is eye wateringly expensive at every level.

[TheDeuce]

Yazza54 said:

TheDeuce said:

Yazza54 said:

TheDeuce said:

Yazza54 said:

This thread really does just keep going round in circles.

I think we can firmly put to bed that Jamie isn't going near F1

The Jess Hawkins thing was a stunt

Abbi Pulling is our only female UK hope, she's talented and the right age but she needs to get away from the academy and beat the boys in f4, 3, 2.. the recipe to get to F1 hasn't changed. It's amazing that most people don't see F1 academy for what it is, to pacify those who think women aren't getting a shot.

The reality is those years in formula woman for Jamie were the nail in her F1 coffin. Not that I think she was good enough anyway. I think Abbi could be but she needs to not waste any time in a championship that means fk all and prove herself.

Let's just follow them and see how they get on.

The F1 academy replaces F4, and delivers a fully funded formula European seat for the winner, who then moves on to FIA F3.

The thing that sets F1 academy apart compared to the failed W series is that progression is baked in and fully funded, and it does put the winner on the traditional path to F1.

Whether the winner gets very far down that path is yet to be seen - but it guarantees at least one person year has a go.

Still only an opportunity for one lucky winner.

I just struggle to get behind it or really have any sympathy in general. It's made out like boys in general have a better opportunity to go places in racing, the reality is there's just more boys that get into it at an early age.

What it takes is talent and money, these girls are getting opportunities that a lot of lads will never get just because of what's between their legs, and it's easier for them to get there because it's such a small pool of talent. If this is the pinnacle of female racing why such a disparity in pace through the field in equal machinery? It's bks.

The money is the biggest issue, you can never really be 100% certain that you are seeing the best raw talent in F1 because there's probably lots of drivers (male, female, non binary or toaster etc) that won't ever get to develop their skills because they don't have rich parents. Sucks but it is what it is. Lots of lads out there that could go far won't, and as someone said earlier it's not like the old days where you can get discovered in your mid 20s or have the benefit of time to plug away and get there on merit.

These days if your career trajectory isn't taking you to F1 by your late teens you're on the dumpster pile. It really is a bit fked up - for everyone.

Edited by Yazza54 on Thursday 16th May 10:23

Yes, that's all true enough - although if you're a generational talent but basically penniless, if you find a way to showcase your talent early on, people are watching... An F1 talent spotter will back someone special and cover the costs for the sake of a future ROI, see Lewis Hamilton as a rare but highly relevant example.

I agree that it's not 'fair' that the girls are getting a leg up in terms of support to get to Euro/FIA F3 level, I also agree that in general segregation is outdated and regressive. The theory is that both things are justified in this instance because by artificially getting more ladies racing today, more girls will be encouraged to go karting tomorrow and in the future will increase the female talent pool to such an extent that stars will emerge who can compete with the guys on merit every step of the way. Personally I very much doubt it will be effective, I don't see a few ladies racing relatively uncompetitively being a motivator for thousands of girls to suddenly start karting. Cynically I think it's a clever way of justifying the artificial effort being made to get women better represented in motorsport.. But it is what it is, and officially the line is that segregation is justified in order to attract future talent.

A pennyless generational talent wouldn't even be able to afford karting at a level where there's anyone watching that can help them. This is the problem. Motorsport is eye wateringly expensive at every level.

I suppose we could define exactly what 'penniless' means... Hamilton snr did have 'pennies', but he had to work several jobs to get Lewis a kart and cover the costs. There was no money in the background to make it easy and it required hard work to keep Lewis racing for long enough to be noticed. Tough, but clearly not impossible.

I think my point was fair. Those with a very high level of talent that are able to display it early on have a reasonable chance of being spotted. Even if it takes a normal family without serious money giving everything to that effort.

[Sandpit Steve]

Yazza54 said:

A pennyless generational talent wouldn't even be able to afford karting at a level where there's anyone watching that can help them. This is the problem. Motorsport is eye wateringly expensive at every level.

Wasn’t there a karting thread on here some time back, that discussed some parents putting £100k a season into UK cadets? Fulltime mechanic, big motorhome truck, and loads of new parts for every race to try and get an edge. That’s totally nuts. One can understand that if you’re in European juniors aged 14 or 15, the bills come in thick and fast, but such a high price of competitive entry for the eight-year-olds seems totally bonkers.

[TheDeuce]

Sandpit Steve said:

Yazza54 said:

A pennyless generational talent wouldn't even be able to afford karting at a level where there's anyone watching that can help them. This is the problem. Motorsport is eye wateringly expensive at every level.

Wasn’t there a karting thread on here some time back, that discussed some parents putting £100k a season into UK cadets? Fulltime mechanic, big motorhome truck, and loads of new parts for every race to try and get an edge. That’s totally nuts. One can understand that if you’re in European juniors aged 14 or 15, the bills come in thick and fast, but such a high price of competitive entry for the eight-year-olds seems totally bonkers.

But if you have £100k to spare.. why not?

Although in most instances I imagine the availability of such money has more of a detrimental effect on how hard a young driver applies themselves to developing. Lewis must have know he had to perform constantly to reward his fathers efforts and to have any hope of getting signed ahead of the money they did scrape together simply running out.

[SpudLink]

TheDeuce said:

Sandpit Steve said:

Yazza54 said:

A pennyless generational talent wouldn't even be able to afford karting at a level where there's anyone watching that can help them. This is the problem. Motorsport is eye wateringly expensive at every level.

Wasn’t there a karting thread on here some time back, that discussed some parents putting £100k a season into UK cadets? Fulltime mechanic, big motorhome truck, and loads of new parts for every race to try and get an edge. That’s totally nuts. One can understand that if you’re in European juniors aged 14 or 15, the bills come in thick and fast, but such a high price of competitive entry for the eight-year-olds seems totally bonkers.

But if you have £100k to spare.. why not?

Although in most instances I imagine the availability of such money has more of a detrimental effect on how hard a young driver applies themselves to developing. Lewis must have know he had to perform constantly to reward his fathers efforts and to have any hope of getting signed ahead of the money they did scrape together simply running out.

I'm sure I watched sometnig where Jos Verstappen effectivly created a professional karting team to support Max at the start.

[Yazza54]

SpudLink said:

TheDeuce said:

Sandpit Steve said:

Yazza54 said:

A pennyless generational talent wouldn't even be able to afford karting at a level where there's anyone watching that can help them. This is the problem. Motorsport is eye wateringly expensive at every level.

Wasn’t there a karting thread on here some time back, that discussed some parents putting £100k a season into UK cadets? Fulltime mechanic, big motorhome truck, and loads of new parts for every race to try and get an edge. That’s totally nuts. One can understand that if you’re in European juniors aged 14 or 15, the bills come in thick and fast, but such a high price of competitive entry for the eight-year-olds seems totally bonkers.

But if you have £100k to spare.. why not?

Although in most instances I imagine the availability of such money has more of a detrimental effect on how hard a young driver applies themselves to developing. Lewis must have know he had to perform constantly to reward his fathers efforts and to have any hope of getting signed ahead of the money they did scrape together simply running out.

I'm sure I watched sometnig where Jos Verstappen effectivly created a professional karting team to support Max at the start.

Exactly, it's brutal out there.

[Sandpit Steve]

TheDeuce said:

Sandpit Steve said:

Yazza54 said:

A pennyless generational talent wouldn't even be able to afford karting at a level where there's anyone watching that can help them. This is the problem. Motorsport is eye wateringly expensive at every level.

Wasn’t there a karting thread on here some time back, that discussed some parents putting £100k a season into UK cadets? Fulltime mechanic, big motorhome truck, and loads of new parts for every race to try and get an edge. That’s totally nuts. One can understand that if you’re in European juniors aged 14 or 15, the bills come in thick and fast, but such a high price of competitive entry for the eight-year-olds seems totally bonkers.

But if you have £100k to spare.. why not?

Although in most instances I imagine the availability of such money has more of a detrimental effect on how hard a young driver applies themselves to developing. Lewis must have know he had to perform constantly to reward his fathers efforts and to have any hope of getting signed ahead of the money they did scrape together simply running out.

Yes, Lewis was awfully lucky, he’d competed on a shoestring and eventually got the attention of Mr Dennis.

The fairytale story is that LH walked up to RD at the annual awards, where he was picking up a the kadet championship trophy, and said that he wanted to drive for McLaren, and Dennis replied that Lewis should come and see him next year. Then Lewis won the championship the next year in juniors as a 12-year-old, and went back to say hi to Ron at the awards, after which he got signed as a McLaren junior and had the rest of his karting and junior car racing career paid for with decent entrants.

[Yazza54]

Sandpit Steve said:

TheDeuce said:

Sandpit Steve said:

Yazza54 said:

A pennyless generational talent wouldn't even be able to afford karting at a level where there's anyone watching that can help them. This is the problem. Motorsport is eye wateringly expensive at every level.

Wasn’t there a karting thread on here some time back, that discussed some parents putting £100k a season into UK cadets? Fulltime mechanic, big motorhome truck, and loads of new parts for every race to try and get an edge. That’s totally nuts. One can understand that if you’re in European juniors aged 14 or 15, the bills come in thick and fast, but such a high price of competitive entry for the eight-year-olds seems totally bonkers.

But if you have £100k to spare.. why not?

Although in most instances I imagine the availability of such money has more of a detrimental effect on how hard a young driver applies themselves to developing. Lewis must have know he had to perform constantly to reward his fathers efforts and to have any hope of getting signed ahead of the money they did scrape together simply running out.

Yes, Lewis was awfully lucky, he’d competed on a shoestring and eventually got the attention of Mr Dennis.

The fairytale story is that LH walked up to RD at the annual awards, where he was picking up a the kadet championship trophy, and said that he wanted to drive for McLaren, and Dennis replied that Lewis should come and see him next year. Then Lewis won the championship the next year in juniors as a 12-year-old, and went back to say hi to Ron at the awards, after which he got signed as a McLaren junior and had the rest of his karting and junior car racing career paid for with decent entrants.

This is a fairytale one in a million story with I reckon a lot of artistic licence used particularly around what daddy Hamilton's shoestrings were like. Maybe they put a hell of a lot of borrowed coin into it that wasn't really his but money is money