Group B Vs 1997 WRC times?
Discussion
Having just watched some of the Group B monsters from another thread it started me thinking. How do the stage times of the group B monsters compare to the WRC times that we see in modern day rallies? Are the advances in engine, tyre, aerodynamics, stability etc enough to bridge the gap to the massive power of the group B machines?
I'm being lazy of course, but someone in the PH massive will answer this in seconds no doubt.
I'm being lazy of course, but someone in the PH massive will answer this in seconds no doubt.
hmmmm 
DOOG said:
The 1986 S4 driven by Toivonen around the Portuguese GP F1 circuit, set a time that would have put it 6th on the grid for that years Grand Prix..
Cant see current WRC coming close...
For the basic fact Group B cars ran anything between 500-900Bhp whereas WRC cars are limited to 300.Cant see current WRC coming close...
Yes chassis' and technology has improved, but you can't beat brute force and ignorance.
annodomini2 said:
you can't beat brute force and ignorance.
True - it's always worked for me. 
Has anyone got any times for comparative stages to see *what* the difference is?
Neil - Yep the P1 has gone, it was time for a change, but I think the M5 is a worthy toy for a bit! (although it has gone straight in the garage - eek).
Gad-Westy said:
I have no evidence to back this up but I'd guess that a modern WRC car would be alot faster over a whole stage, especially loose surfaces.
You'd be right - it's very difficult to measure against the GpB cars as many of the rallies have changed beyond recognition - i.e. you're not going to beat an RAC rally time through Dalby 'cos it's now the Rally GB tour of Cardiff.But to get back on topic, a certain C. Mcrae was beating GpB times in his GpA Impreza a few years ago and the current crop of WRC are even faster. GpB may have had 600bhp at times but active diffs and tyer technology make a huge difference, oh yes if you actually believe those engines 'only' put out 300bhp then you're sadly mistaken, the advances in technology mean that whilst the power is probably around 320-330 the torque levels are just monstrous - how else do you think they hit over 60 in 100m on gravel?
I would think that the modern WRC car would have the advantage on loose surfaces at least. It would be able to use most of its 300hp and low end grunt whilst the GpB car most likely would be spinning away much of its horsepower advantage.
Even on tamac, if the surface is at all rough I woul think the WRC car would have a slight advantage. It would be interesting to see actual stage times for comparison.
On a race circuit I would have to go with th GpB car's power advantage.
Even on tamac, if the surface is at all rough I woul think the WRC car would have a slight advantage. It would be interesting to see actual stage times for comparison.
On a race circuit I would have to go with th GpB car's power advantage.
DOOG said:
The 1986 S4 driven by Toivonen around the Portuguese GP F1 circuit, set a time that would have put it 6th on the grid for that years Grand Prix..
Cant see current WRC coming close...
Pretty sure that is an urban myth unless the GP was held in a monsoon and all the drivers were ill. F1 was running 1000BHP+ and had much better aero than a contemporary rally car. Cant see current WRC coming close...
Ben
i'm not sure that WRC cars are expecially fast across country- not compared to some of the other stuff that has/does run.
i know of a couple of Comp Safari cars that eat WRC cars for breakfast when they compete on gravel and dirt stage- but then these things weigh in at about 900kg and often have 502 BBC producing monster power- they are of course only geared to 120mph too which also helps.
on tarmac theycan't compete of course becuase they just aren't setup right- carrying the spped through corners as the WRC cars do is impossible for them.
i know of a couple of Comp Safari cars that eat WRC cars for breakfast when they compete on gravel and dirt stage- but then these things weigh in at about 900kg and often have 502 BBC producing monster power- they are of course only geared to 120mph too which also helps.
on tarmac theycan't compete of course becuase they just aren't setup right- carrying the spped through corners as the WRC cars do is impossible for them.
[snip]
To give you an idea of the kind of performance GroupB cars were capable of I'll mention that in the 1986 season Henri Toivonen made two laps around the Estoril circuit, during a stage of the Portuguese rally, the fastest of which, in 1 minute and 18,1 seconds, would have qualified him in the sixth position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season. Ayrton Senna had the Pole Position in the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix in 1 minute and 16,7 seconds...Toivonen was using the Lancia Delta S4 and was accompanied by his usual co-driver Sergio Cresto. Keep in mind however that current GroupA and WRC cars are even faster, overall, than GroupB cars used to be. This is mainly due to technology advances in tire formulations and suspension technology leading to GroupA cars being faster around corners but losing on straights as compared to GroupB cars.
[/snip]
To give you an idea of the kind of performance GroupB cars were capable of I'll mention that in the 1986 season Henri Toivonen made two laps around the Estoril circuit, during a stage of the Portuguese rally, the fastest of which, in 1 minute and 18,1 seconds, would have qualified him in the sixth position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season. Ayrton Senna had the Pole Position in the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix in 1 minute and 16,7 seconds...Toivonen was using the Lancia Delta S4 and was accompanied by his usual co-driver Sergio Cresto. Keep in mind however that current GroupA and WRC cars are even faster, overall, than GroupB cars used to be. This is mainly due to technology advances in tire formulations and suspension technology leading to GroupA cars being faster around corners but losing on straights as compared to GroupB cars.
[/snip]
Its group B that does it for me every time! It is the noise and power that leads the way. I wouldnt like to say what is quickest round a track but know what would do it in stile. What i belive is that audi was and might be the fastest car to run up pikes peak, And the footage of it doing the run is just awsome!
One of the few back to back tests between group B & the early wrc spec stuff ...although no stage times......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7OckkpTBdE
The group B may be a tad slower but remember they have had 20 year development since the mid 80`s...For me...Group B had more flair...
Given the choice between a group B & a WRC car..I know which I`d choose.
(6R4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7OckkpTBdE
The group B may be a tad slower but remember they have had 20 year development since the mid 80`s...For me...Group B had more flair...
Given the choice between a group B & a WRC car..I know which I`d choose.
(6R4)
Edited by F.M on Friday 1st June 14:32
Ranger 6 said:
power is probably around 320-330 the torque levels are just monstrous - how else do you think they hit over 60 in 100m on gravel?
Because they breathe through restrictors. Unrestricted, a WRC car probably would develop somewhere close to 600bhp.They have rather silly torque curves - the torque drops as the revs rise...
F.M said:
One of the few back to back tests between group B & the early wrc spec stuff ...although no stage times......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7OckkpTBdE
The group B may be a tad slower but remember they have had 20 year development since the mid 80`s...For me...Group B had more flair...
Given the choice between a group B & a WRC car..I know which I`d choose.
(6R4)
Group B: Aviators, Malboro's and girlshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7OckkpTBdE
The group B may be a tad slower but remember they have had 20 year development since the mid 80`s...For me...Group B had more flair...
Given the choice between a group B & a WRC car..I know which I`d choose.
(6R4)
Edited by F.M on Friday 1st June 14:32
WRC: Salad, training programmes and safety.
Graham][snip said:
To give you an idea of the kind of performance GroupB cars were capable of I'll mention that in the 1986 season Henri Toivonen made two laps around the Estoril circuit, during a stage of the Portuguese rally, the fastest of which, in 1 minute and 18,1 seconds, would have qualified him in the sixth position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season. Ayrton Senna had the Pole Position in the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix in 1 minute and 16,7 seconds...Toivonen was using the Lancia Delta S4 and was accompanied by his usual co-driver Sergio Cresto. Keep in mind however that current GroupA and WRC cars are even faster, overall, than GroupB cars used to be. This is mainly due to technology advances in tire formulations and suspension technology leading to GroupA cars being faster around corners but losing on straights as compared to GroupB cars.
[/snip]
The only way that happened was if it was round a smaller circuit. Contemporary F1 cars had about 1000bhp, massive tyres, aerodynamic grip and most importantly weighed much less than the rally car.[/snip]
The claim appears on several websites, but no one can provide anything substantial to back it up.
tank slapper said:
Graham][snip said:
To give you an idea of the kind of performance GroupB cars were capable of I'll mention that in the 1986 season Henri Toivonen made two laps around the Estoril circuit, during a stage of the Portuguese rally, the fastest of which, in 1 minute and 18,1 seconds, would have qualified him in the sixth position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season. Ayrton Senna had the Pole Position in the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix in 1 minute and 16,7 seconds...Toivonen was using the Lancia Delta S4 and was accompanied by his usual co-driver Sergio Cresto. Keep in mind however that current GroupA and WRC cars are even faster, overall, than GroupB cars used to be. This is mainly due to technology advances in tire formulations and suspension technology leading to GroupA cars being faster around corners but losing on straights as compared to GroupB cars.
[/snip]
The only way that happened was if it was round a smaller circuit. Contemporary F1 cars had about 1000bhp, massive tyres, aerodynamic grip and most importantly weighed much less than the rally car.[/snip]
The claim appears on several websites, but no one can provide anything substantial to back it up.
Its an often-debated claim. What does go some way towards explaining how it could be true is that apparently Toivonen did it in the dry and the F1 that year was rather wet. Though I haven't seen any actualy evidence for that either. The truth may or may not be out there...Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff