RE: Lotus parent company sold
Discussion
peter450 said:
Every Lotus that has launched with performance below those expectations has barely sold, Elan S2 N/A, Stevens Esprit N/A, they just did not deliver on peoples expectations minimum expectations of the brand, and the base car at present is dangerously close to that teritory, it's to slow, at this rate of prgression the MX5 will be both faster and cheaper in the not to distant future
well said.the car market has moved on a lot on the last 15 years, there are very few crap cars now, they are all pretty reliable, cheap, etc etc.
0-60 in 5 sec's is no longer that fast etc etc.
Lotus really need to understand this.
So Scuffers, did you know that the new V8 was in fact and old DTM engine from another manufacturer ? This completely blows me away, Bahar and crew really do appear complete smoke and mirrors merchants, who are complete masters when it comes to manipulating the press.
I think it is common knowledge that the Indy Car engine program is a Lotus badged John Judd, Engine Developments product .
I think it is common knowledge that the Indy Car engine program is a Lotus badged John Judd, Engine Developments product .
ravon said:
So Scuffers, did you know that the new V8 was in fact and old DTM engine from another manufacturer ? This completely blows me away, Bahar and crew really do appear complete smoke and mirrors merchants, who are complete masters when it comes to manipulating the press.
I think it is common knowledge that the Indy Car engine program is a Lotus badged John Judd, Engine Developments product .
not specifically, no, but it was pretty obvious that it was either brought in from somewhere or was something done for another customer previously.I think it is common knowledge that the Indy Car engine program is a Lotus badged John Judd, Engine Developments product .
as has been said, all of Dannyboys new stuff seems to be from outside Lotus, a quick look round the Evora race cars illustrates that point.
Eliser said:
Shame that the Evora wasn't introduced with the supercharged engine - it is one hell of a car with it. Evora (as Europa was) is very poorly marketed and I get the impression that Danny and his team of whizz kids don't really support it, as it's not their child. I don't hold my breath for the next Lotus generation, if and when they appear.
What Lotus need is a no frills, 650kg stripped down car with 250 bhp - they would sell them in the 1000's - but the current management is not capable of delivering this. There is a market for such a car.
That car - weighing in at about 800kg though - will come from Caterham designed by the people that developed the Mk1 Elise.What Lotus need is a no frills, 650kg stripped down car with 250 bhp - they would sell them in the 1000's - but the current management is not capable of delivering this. There is a market for such a car.
The Toyota engine is somewhat fragile in the Elise. I would have preferred Ford Duratec 2.0 or 2.3, more tuning options, lighter and reliable.
Tuna - may I ask how old you are? And I ask that non-offensively, just curious because you sound exactly as I did when I was younger, in my teens, and defending Lotus like a geek defends his favorite Xmen character. And again I don't mean that offensively whatsoever.
I would like nothing better than for Lotus to succeed, believe me on that because I consider myself Lotus's biggest advocate. But we must not disillusion ourselves with hopeless dreams. We must read between the lines now more than ever. This current news could spell disaster for Lotus' future plans. Also, I don't think many, if any at all, can rationally argue that the Evora isnt a great product from Lotus (because it is a fantastic car!) and a success in its own right. But numbers don't lie, they aren't selling.
We have to face the facts, Lotus is not a popular car. People aren't breaking down the doors to get one. If that were true, one wouldn't be able to acquire an Esprit S4 for example for the price of a fully loaded Hyundai FFS!! Good for guys like me on the second hand market, but bad for the company.
Truth is, I'd rather NOT be able to buy an Esprit of my dreams for $25,000 - $35,000 and see Lotus selling Evoras much the way Porsche sells base model Carreras, then the latter.
I have no faith in Bahars plans, not that he can pull it off, because I believe that he can, and will if this news doesn't end that vision. But my lack of faith is that the new lineup and its entire purpose, to get in the door of play boy millionaires around the world, is one of complete lunacy.
I believe there is a spot for Lotus somewhere in the global exotic/supercars game. I don't think anyone can refute that. But it seems as if finding exactly where they belong has been a challenge no one has yet to win.
As little an impact Lotus has on the world, I think I speak for many when I say it will be very tough to imagine a world without them.
I don't personally believe that Lotus will tank and dissapear into the history books like TVR, but I also don't believe they will morph into the vision of Bahar.
What Lotus needs to do is somehow grab a piece of the market and enthusiast mind somewhere inbetween what they are now and what Bahar envisions.
Keep the Elise but drop the price. Here in America, I see Elise's going for $60,000!! That is INSANE of a price to ask.
Keep the Elise as it is and market it as a daily driver that is a capable track toy. Priced at around 30-35 grand. Remake the Elan and offer it along the lines of purpose as the Elise but with more creature comforts and amenities I.e. More sound deadening material, full carpeting, easier ingress/egress, convertible model, offering the same engine used in the Elise. That solves that problem. All the while of course taking full advantage of their new platform technology.
Keep the Evora where it is and for its same purpose, target market 911 Carreras. The everyday driver, 2 + 2 model. Drop the price to around 45 grand. Offer the same engines they use currently but instead of spening millions upon millions on bahars dream, use that extra money to IMPROVE QUALITY across the board. Use all the millions they are giving bahar to do as I am saying but dump millions into getting quality on par with Porsche etc.
And lastly, bring the Esprit in as the flag ship supercar. Go nuts on the Esprit. Make an "entry level" one under 100k, v6 turbo sourced from wherever they were getting from before. And make a Esprit SE version with a V10 or supercharged V8 that does what Lotus does best, engineer. Focus all efforts on creating an engineering marvel!! A supercar that redefines and levels the supercar playing field. I'm talking about introducing a real player against ferrari, porsche and lambo. Really shake the pants off the big 3. I know they have the talent to do it. Introduce some really innovative engineering for the Esprit.
Think about it. Save money, cut costs and make the assembly line for my model lineup all interchangeable. I.e. Same engine with different tuning of course for the Elise and Elan. Same engine currently in Evora, and source the Esprits or continue on producing their own. Again, continue to source the engiones they are using now from Toyota. They have that new platform technology so they don't have to have 3 different chassis lines. That solves that problem. Think of how many millions are saved right there from using toyotas engines and havig their new platform technology. Then take the many millions from bahars dream and dump every penny into the Esprit. Create an absolute masterpiece.
And you know what, do the figures, do the math, by dropping the price of each model to a realistic figure, okay, they lose money on each model, but offset it by the millions that they were going to use for bahars dream. HOPING that the new lineup with the new price and makeover will within a few years have acquired a whole lot of new customers and loyalties. Gain the respect needed, watch Lotus's reputation begin to grow and become a viable option as a trophy car like a lambo and ferrari, and then bring prices to a level to make a profit. They don't make a profit now anyway, and never did. So why not take this path. Its much more sensible than bahars vision where they are going against the entire philosophy of Lotus.
And at some point introduce the city car, the hybrid, and there you go.
Nuff said.
I would like nothing better than for Lotus to succeed, believe me on that because I consider myself Lotus's biggest advocate. But we must not disillusion ourselves with hopeless dreams. We must read between the lines now more than ever. This current news could spell disaster for Lotus' future plans. Also, I don't think many, if any at all, can rationally argue that the Evora isnt a great product from Lotus (because it is a fantastic car!) and a success in its own right. But numbers don't lie, they aren't selling.
We have to face the facts, Lotus is not a popular car. People aren't breaking down the doors to get one. If that were true, one wouldn't be able to acquire an Esprit S4 for example for the price of a fully loaded Hyundai FFS!! Good for guys like me on the second hand market, but bad for the company.
Truth is, I'd rather NOT be able to buy an Esprit of my dreams for $25,000 - $35,000 and see Lotus selling Evoras much the way Porsche sells base model Carreras, then the latter.
I have no faith in Bahars plans, not that he can pull it off, because I believe that he can, and will if this news doesn't end that vision. But my lack of faith is that the new lineup and its entire purpose, to get in the door of play boy millionaires around the world, is one of complete lunacy.
I believe there is a spot for Lotus somewhere in the global exotic/supercars game. I don't think anyone can refute that. But it seems as if finding exactly where they belong has been a challenge no one has yet to win.
As little an impact Lotus has on the world, I think I speak for many when I say it will be very tough to imagine a world without them.
I don't personally believe that Lotus will tank and dissapear into the history books like TVR, but I also don't believe they will morph into the vision of Bahar.
What Lotus needs to do is somehow grab a piece of the market and enthusiast mind somewhere inbetween what they are now and what Bahar envisions.
Keep the Elise but drop the price. Here in America, I see Elise's going for $60,000!! That is INSANE of a price to ask.
Keep the Elise as it is and market it as a daily driver that is a capable track toy. Priced at around 30-35 grand. Remake the Elan and offer it along the lines of purpose as the Elise but with more creature comforts and amenities I.e. More sound deadening material, full carpeting, easier ingress/egress, convertible model, offering the same engine used in the Elise. That solves that problem. All the while of course taking full advantage of their new platform technology.
Keep the Evora where it is and for its same purpose, target market 911 Carreras. The everyday driver, 2 + 2 model. Drop the price to around 45 grand. Offer the same engines they use currently but instead of spening millions upon millions on bahars dream, use that extra money to IMPROVE QUALITY across the board. Use all the millions they are giving bahar to do as I am saying but dump millions into getting quality on par with Porsche etc.
And lastly, bring the Esprit in as the flag ship supercar. Go nuts on the Esprit. Make an "entry level" one under 100k, v6 turbo sourced from wherever they were getting from before. And make a Esprit SE version with a V10 or supercharged V8 that does what Lotus does best, engineer. Focus all efforts on creating an engineering marvel!! A supercar that redefines and levels the supercar playing field. I'm talking about introducing a real player against ferrari, porsche and lambo. Really shake the pants off the big 3. I know they have the talent to do it. Introduce some really innovative engineering for the Esprit.
Think about it. Save money, cut costs and make the assembly line for my model lineup all interchangeable. I.e. Same engine with different tuning of course for the Elise and Elan. Same engine currently in Evora, and source the Esprits or continue on producing their own. Again, continue to source the engiones they are using now from Toyota. They have that new platform technology so they don't have to have 3 different chassis lines. That solves that problem. Think of how many millions are saved right there from using toyotas engines and havig their new platform technology. Then take the many millions from bahars dream and dump every penny into the Esprit. Create an absolute masterpiece.
And you know what, do the figures, do the math, by dropping the price of each model to a realistic figure, okay, they lose money on each model, but offset it by the millions that they were going to use for bahars dream. HOPING that the new lineup with the new price and makeover will within a few years have acquired a whole lot of new customers and loyalties. Gain the respect needed, watch Lotus's reputation begin to grow and become a viable option as a trophy car like a lambo and ferrari, and then bring prices to a level to make a profit. They don't make a profit now anyway, and never did. So why not take this path. Its much more sensible than bahars vision where they are going against the entire philosophy of Lotus.
And at some point introduce the city car, the hybrid, and there you go.
Nuff said.
Edited by ESOG on Wednesday 18th January 06:21
In response to the posts on Page 4 of this discussion regarding the argument over why or why not the Evora has or has not been stamped a success yet, I want to say a few things;
First off, I don't think anyone can disagree that it is priced too high, even for the SC version. And I don't say this because the performance figures on paper seem a bit meek, no, I say that because for the market it is intended to target it is clearly too high on the asking price. The price in the US equates to nearly $90,000!!! I am sorry, but that is INSANE!! Depending on what state you purchased it from, the Esprit S4S all the way to the last Esprit V8 wasn't even priced as high, and the Evora had been produced in no way shape or form to be on the same level as the years of Esprits I mentioned just now.
The following may offend true blooded Loti enthusiasts, so like the saying goes, here is your DISCLAIMER: If you are easily offended, skip over this post or change the channel NOW!
And a personal disclaimer of my own volition: I LOVE LOTUS! Always have, ALWAYS will. No matter what, even if I dont agree with Bahars plans or Lotus' recent wacky and zainy marketing efforts. I am a TRUE enthusiast of the Marque, ask anyone I know and they will tell you it is so, and almost to a point of being labeled Obsessive. With that said... here goes.
When they unveiled the Evora I was not crazy about the styling, especially the rear. When I found out there was 3 of them but 5 miles near my home at a Lotus dealership I only then found out existed as I had only moved into the area with my OH a month prior, I was ecstatic to see the Evora in the flesh. I had high hopes because I know as well as anyone that Lotus' dont seem to photograph very well, but are drop dead gorgeous in the flesh. So off I went, with butterflies in my stomach, I hadnt been this excited in years. A WHOLE NEW LOTUS! I was psyched. When I got there they were closed, but they had left all 3 outside, a white one, a red one and a black one. (white is my favorite color on sports car btw). Instantly I changed my opinion on the styling and was right then and there a believer of the Evora. I am not going to sit here and tell you that I was jaw-droppingly amazed and smitten, but I certainly was more than happy with the styling. I was content. It wasnt no late model Esprit thats for sure, but then of course it wasnt supposed to be. And very quickly I will add, the interior was beautiful! But then again I always loved the interiors on Lotus'.
Okay, so whats the problem that I have with the Evora? Well, it is not one of subjective principal like the design of the car, no, it is I believe irrefutable criticisms: I have read that the Evora was developed with a higher level of attention to reliability/build quality and I had truly hoped it was true. Sadly, I was appalled at what I saw on one of them cars, the black one. As I approached it I immediately noticed the leather on the upper dash by the middle of the windscreen was peeling and tearing, the stitching had come apart. The car had its Sale Specs written on the window, it was a 2010 with less than 7K on the odometer!! And the dash leather is already coming apart FFS!?! But it didnt stop there. The lug nuts were rusted as if they were 5 years old; a minor thing, maybe so, but maybe not for a car nearly $15,000 shy of $100K. The LOTUS emblem (the one on the front of the car) was discolored I noticed and upon closer inspection it was peeling off underneath the protective plastic layer. Upon staring into the cabin I was what many Audi/VW owners can attest to, some of the more used buttons such as the one for the headlights and such had the graphics on them almost completely worn off. The shift knob leather was wearing very badly as well. So all in all I wasnt too pleased or confident at that point that the build quality was much improved over previous models.
Which brings me to my next qualm, PRICE. Unless you have a TON of money and are one of those guys who MUST have everything brand new, I really do not see the point in spending nearly $100K for the same car that can be had on Ebay, or better yet, the dealer lot I was standing in at that moment for thousands upon THOUSANDS less!! Lotus have never kept their value, but when you really think about it, why in the world would any half-witted person spend that sort of cash, luxury tax and gas guzzler tax etc etc etc when they can simply buy the same one they wanted second hand with break-in miles for $20 grand less. Let some other schmuck pay all those initial crazy taxes and first service fee right. I look forward to 3 years from now when I will buy my Evora S with 25K on the odometer for $35,000. I mean s
t, I did it with the Esprit and I'm gonna do it with an Elise this summer.
My point is this, the Evora is very unique looking in a good way, has an ace looking interior IMO and we all read the reviews, is not blindingly fast but appropriately QUICK and corners like its on rails. Although I heard the S model is leaps and bounds quicker feeling. But for the asking price, i'm sorry the build quality alone doesnt warrant what Lotus Dealers are asking to get. And we now live in a time when most lower class sports cars such as Mitsu Evo or WRX turbos, and even some Luxury Saloons like MB makes, and lets not forget BMW 335is' turbo etc are hitting 0-60 times in less than 5 seconds, most near the low 4 second category and do so weighing 4,000lbs and with all the creature comforts some fat-assed American people demand. The Evora, even the S model arent that much more impressive for a car that weighs 3x as much as an Evo that puts out similar performance figures. I said it before 100X and ill say it here and now, AGAIN; NO CAR INTENDED TO BE A SPORTS CAR, AND ONE ESPECIALLY WITH THE EXOTIC PRESTIGE/HERITAGE AND SUPERCARDOM EXPERIENCE should EVER have less than 300BHP upon rolling off the production line. The Evora was dead before it even began when introduced to Americans and the horse power numbers revealed. (well, any Americans half curious enough to take a gander at its specs that is). Trust me when I tell you that in the U.S., enthusiasts of the marque aside, as soon as some cocky, arrogant rich young man read that it had less than 300bhp I can almost guarantee you they threw the magazine aside or flipped to the next page, carrying on with their day never to think of this new thing called the Evora by a company named Lotus to which they vaguely recall hearing about when they were 10 years old and watching Pretty Woman with their mother.
I dont think the reason for stagnant sales of the Evora have to do with the obscurity of the market and/or buyers looking for a 2 + 2 sports car that they can rub in the face of their neighbor who owns a Carrera on every crisp and clear Sunday morning before church. Quite the contrary IMO, I think the prospect of a 2+2 mid engined sports car with heritage seems like a very attractive one indeed. So why then the failure? I am serious when I say I believe it ALL comes down to 2 things: PRICE and RECOGNITION. The Evora is simply priced TOO HIGH!! Either jack the performance up as far as the supercharged version can handle and give it to journalists to test against the likes of its original intended competitors. As for recognition, well, that speaks for itself. Not many people have a clue as to who Lotus are, let alone WHAT it is!! But marketing it by way of dip-stz (see what I did there? 
) like Swizz Beatz is just a complete mockery if you ask me. They should try to push their name by doing it like the old days.... GET THE EVORA ON THE BIG SCREEN ON A BIG BUDGET MOVIE. You ask someone if they know who are what a Lotus is and they will scratch their heads. Mention 2 words, PRETTY WOMAN or BASIC INSTINCT and suddenly their faces light up with familiarity, followed by "OHHHH YEAH! Thats right.... Who makes them?" 
I have more to add but I will stop here. If you have made it this far, I commend you, and I thank you sincerely for taking the time to read my opinion of the matter.
Again, thank you!
First off, I don't think anyone can disagree that it is priced too high, even for the SC version. And I don't say this because the performance figures on paper seem a bit meek, no, I say that because for the market it is intended to target it is clearly too high on the asking price. The price in the US equates to nearly $90,000!!! I am sorry, but that is INSANE!! Depending on what state you purchased it from, the Esprit S4S all the way to the last Esprit V8 wasn't even priced as high, and the Evora had been produced in no way shape or form to be on the same level as the years of Esprits I mentioned just now.
The following may offend true blooded Loti enthusiasts, so like the saying goes, here is your DISCLAIMER: If you are easily offended, skip over this post or change the channel NOW!
And a personal disclaimer of my own volition: I LOVE LOTUS! Always have, ALWAYS will. No matter what, even if I dont agree with Bahars plans or Lotus' recent wacky and zainy marketing efforts. I am a TRUE enthusiast of the Marque, ask anyone I know and they will tell you it is so, and almost to a point of being labeled Obsessive. With that said... here goes.
When they unveiled the Evora I was not crazy about the styling, especially the rear. When I found out there was 3 of them but 5 miles near my home at a Lotus dealership I only then found out existed as I had only moved into the area with my OH a month prior, I was ecstatic to see the Evora in the flesh. I had high hopes because I know as well as anyone that Lotus' dont seem to photograph very well, but are drop dead gorgeous in the flesh. So off I went, with butterflies in my stomach, I hadnt been this excited in years. A WHOLE NEW LOTUS! I was psyched. When I got there they were closed, but they had left all 3 outside, a white one, a red one and a black one. (white is my favorite color on sports car btw). Instantly I changed my opinion on the styling and was right then and there a believer of the Evora. I am not going to sit here and tell you that I was jaw-droppingly amazed and smitten, but I certainly was more than happy with the styling. I was content. It wasnt no late model Esprit thats for sure, but then of course it wasnt supposed to be. And very quickly I will add, the interior was beautiful! But then again I always loved the interiors on Lotus'.
Okay, so whats the problem that I have with the Evora? Well, it is not one of subjective principal like the design of the car, no, it is I believe irrefutable criticisms: I have read that the Evora was developed with a higher level of attention to reliability/build quality and I had truly hoped it was true. Sadly, I was appalled at what I saw on one of them cars, the black one. As I approached it I immediately noticed the leather on the upper dash by the middle of the windscreen was peeling and tearing, the stitching had come apart. The car had its Sale Specs written on the window, it was a 2010 with less than 7K on the odometer!! And the dash leather is already coming apart FFS!?! But it didnt stop there. The lug nuts were rusted as if they were 5 years old; a minor thing, maybe so, but maybe not for a car nearly $15,000 shy of $100K. The LOTUS emblem (the one on the front of the car) was discolored I noticed and upon closer inspection it was peeling off underneath the protective plastic layer. Upon staring into the cabin I was what many Audi/VW owners can attest to, some of the more used buttons such as the one for the headlights and such had the graphics on them almost completely worn off. The shift knob leather was wearing very badly as well. So all in all I wasnt too pleased or confident at that point that the build quality was much improved over previous models.
Which brings me to my next qualm, PRICE. Unless you have a TON of money and are one of those guys who MUST have everything brand new, I really do not see the point in spending nearly $100K for the same car that can be had on Ebay, or better yet, the dealer lot I was standing in at that moment for thousands upon THOUSANDS less!! Lotus have never kept their value, but when you really think about it, why in the world would any half-witted person spend that sort of cash, luxury tax and gas guzzler tax etc etc etc when they can simply buy the same one they wanted second hand with break-in miles for $20 grand less. Let some other schmuck pay all those initial crazy taxes and first service fee right. I look forward to 3 years from now when I will buy my Evora S with 25K on the odometer for $35,000. I mean s
t, I did it with the Esprit and I'm gonna do it with an Elise this summer.My point is this, the Evora is very unique looking in a good way, has an ace looking interior IMO and we all read the reviews, is not blindingly fast but appropriately QUICK and corners like its on rails. Although I heard the S model is leaps and bounds quicker feeling. But for the asking price, i'm sorry the build quality alone doesnt warrant what Lotus Dealers are asking to get. And we now live in a time when most lower class sports cars such as Mitsu Evo or WRX turbos, and even some Luxury Saloons like MB makes, and lets not forget BMW 335is' turbo etc are hitting 0-60 times in less than 5 seconds, most near the low 4 second category and do so weighing 4,000lbs and with all the creature comforts some fat-assed American people demand. The Evora, even the S model arent that much more impressive for a car that weighs 3x as much as an Evo that puts out similar performance figures. I said it before 100X and ill say it here and now, AGAIN; NO CAR INTENDED TO BE A SPORTS CAR, AND ONE ESPECIALLY WITH THE EXOTIC PRESTIGE/HERITAGE AND SUPERCARDOM EXPERIENCE should EVER have less than 300BHP upon rolling off the production line. The Evora was dead before it even began when introduced to Americans and the horse power numbers revealed. (well, any Americans half curious enough to take a gander at its specs that is). Trust me when I tell you that in the U.S., enthusiasts of the marque aside, as soon as some cocky, arrogant rich young man read that it had less than 300bhp I can almost guarantee you they threw the magazine aside or flipped to the next page, carrying on with their day never to think of this new thing called the Evora by a company named Lotus to which they vaguely recall hearing about when they were 10 years old and watching Pretty Woman with their mother.
I dont think the reason for stagnant sales of the Evora have to do with the obscurity of the market and/or buyers looking for a 2 + 2 sports car that they can rub in the face of their neighbor who owns a Carrera on every crisp and clear Sunday morning before church. Quite the contrary IMO, I think the prospect of a 2+2 mid engined sports car with heritage seems like a very attractive one indeed. So why then the failure? I am serious when I say I believe it ALL comes down to 2 things: PRICE and RECOGNITION. The Evora is simply priced TOO HIGH!! Either jack the performance up as far as the supercharged version can handle and give it to journalists to test against the likes of its original intended competitors. As for recognition, well, that speaks for itself. Not many people have a clue as to who Lotus are, let alone WHAT it is!! But marketing it by way of dip-s
tz (see what I did there? ) like Swizz Beatz is just a complete mockery if you ask me. They should try to push their name by doing it like the old days.... GET THE EVORA ON THE BIG SCREEN ON A BIG BUDGET MOVIE. You ask someone if they know who are what a Lotus is and they will scratch their heads. Mention 2 words, PRETTY WOMAN or BASIC INSTINCT and suddenly their faces light up with familiarity, followed by "OHHHH YEAH! Thats right.... Who makes them?" I have more to add but I will stop here. If you have made it this far, I commend you, and I thank you sincerely for taking the time to read my opinion of the matter.
Again, thank you!
Uh-oh
looks like the pre-cursor to a sell off.
lotus' new owner said:
We have to sit down and look at all the plans and operations of Lotus before we decide whether we are selling or stick with Lotus. I need to sit down with the management of Lotus and Proton to see whether they [the plans] are workable as soon as possible. We need to see if the plan is viable or not
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9021839/Debt-crisis-live.htmllooks like the pre-cursor to a sell off.
Scuffers said:
launched mid 2009....
At the time, all the reviews were glowing, (even Clarkson liked it), Autocar awarded it Britain's Best Driver's Car 2009, Evo gave it Car of the Year 2009 etc...
It had about the best PR launch possible, yet failed to make any real impact with real customers.
hence me saying the customers who bought something else were idiots, in my opinion. Admittedly quite extreme, but no more silly than saying the Evora had a "confused identity" - I meant that if people were confused as to what the car represented, they must be idiots because it surely represents what a lot of people would (or at least should) love in a car.At the time, all the reviews were glowing, (even Clarkson liked it), Autocar awarded it Britain's Best Driver's Car 2009, Evo gave it Car of the Year 2009 etc...
It had about the best PR launch possible, yet failed to make any real impact with real customers.
I know I'm biased by definition, but uutsourcing engines is far more common practice than some would believe, even with large manufacturers.
For example McLaren's engine was an MCT engine (a race engine) with development work to make it suitable for a road car outsourced to Ricardo. Sounds pretty familiar!
For example McLaren's engine was an MCT engine (a race engine) with development work to make it suitable for a road car outsourced to Ricardo. Sounds pretty familiar!
Scuffers said:
sorry, that's just sentimental bull.
it's nothing to do with 'dissing' them cause they are small and British (well Malaysian), and everything to do with inept management, horrific build quality, cavalier attitude towards dealers/customers etc etc...
people are not going to buy £50K+ cars on the basis that Lotus might be British, the product and company have to be right.
BMW have had horrendous engine problems with VANOS etc, yet Lotus gets tarred with the same old crap about HGF based on the fact it chose a Rover engine which looked after properly shouldn't lead to HGF and even if it does, costs nothing to sort out compared with a lunched VANOS unit. Horrific build quality? Come on, based on what? Nothing has gone wrong with my Elise and my Evora experience was faultless.it's nothing to do with 'dissing' them cause they are small and British (well Malaysian), and everything to do with inept management, horrific build quality, cavalier attitude towards dealers/customers etc etc...
people are not going to buy £50K+ cars on the basis that Lotus might be British, the product and company have to be right.
ESOG said:
Tuna - may I ask how old you are? And I ask that non-offensively, just curious because you sound exactly as I did when I was younger, in my teens, and defending Lotus like a geek defends his favorite Xmen character. And again I don't mean that offensively whatsoever.
I'm laughing here..I'm not really aiming to defend Lotus - they've got a lot wrong over the years, and still have some major issues that the Bahar plan does not appear to address. However, I did start following them very closely about a decade ago with the M250 fiasco - due to the fact that I lost a sizeable deposit with them. (To put your mind at rest as regards my age, I was in my thirties then
)Having paid a reasonable amount of attention to what they're doing, the rubbish spouted on threads like these does wind me up. I have no problem with people raising genuine issues that they personally have had with Lotus ownership, or criticisms of the way the company is run. Personally, I try to avoid throwing mud in a public forum but I can understand that others feel passionately about these things. What I do have a problem with, is people turning up with stuff that is simply not true, or 'friend of a friend' pub talk.
Doing the company down in a well read public forum because someone your mate knew heard that they produce rubbish cars is quite unreasonable. Why not stick with Load Of Trouble Usually Serious - it's about that level of debate? The Chinese whispers regarding Bahar's plans are a special favourite, because no-one really knows exactly what he's going to deliver, yet everyone has their own special opinion about the sort of car that Lotus should be producing, and at what price. Then there are a few posters for whom nothing Lotus could do would be good enough.
I think people underestimate how much an effect this kind of discussion could have on the company. If you are considering buying a current Lotus and do a little research, you're likely to end up on this forum. Google 'Lotus Evora experience' and Pistonheads is the number one result. So when people make lazy generalisations, or just make stuff up, it seems a bit of a shame. I've really enjoyed every Lotus I've driven (and there have been a few), so I'd like them to be in a position to produce a few more. I'm not so much a fan as a pedant who enjoys driving
Tuna said:
I've really enjoyed every Lotus I've driven (and there have been a few), ... I enjoy driving
Perhaps the problem is that Lotus think too many people actually enjoy driving? As said many times on here, people buy cars like white goods and when you see a nice car, how rare is it that you actually see it being driven as it was intended? Perhaps the problem is that however fine the chassis, however much engineering has gone into it, however good it would make the driver feel if they actually gave it a chance, the fact that people who actually like driving and are good enough to appreciate all that are so few and far between that they will never sell volumes they want to. I really hope not, but sadly I suspect it might be the case. Perhaps as people get more money and move away from elise and exige the problems are even worse and then it is all just about the posing? In today's paper there is a guy saying he is looking forward to buying a Lamborghini after his lottery win so he can "purr around in it". Says it all really, I would never have put purr and lambo in the same sentence.zebedee said:
Tuna said:
I've really enjoyed every Lotus I've driven (and there have been a few), ... I enjoy driving
Perhaps the problem is that Lotus think too many people actually enjoy driving? As said many times on here, people buy cars like white goods and when you see a nice car, how rare is it that you actually see it being driven as it was intended? Perhaps the problem is that however fine the chassis, however much engineering has gone into it, however good it would make the driver feel if they actually gave it a chance, the fact that people who actually like driving and are good enough to appreciate all that are so few and far between that they will never sell volumes they want to. I really hope not, but sadly I suspect it might be the case. Perhaps as people get more money and move away from elise and exige the problems are even worse and then it is all just about the posing? In today's paper there is a guy saying he is looking forward to buying a Lamborghini after his lottery win so he can "purr around in it". Says it all really, I would never have put purr and lambo in the same sentence.I have owned Elise's since '97, and much as I love them, it's very much a toy car to me, I have a nice comfy shopping trolley for every day stuff.
the issue is that Lotus have spent the last few years trying to make the Elise an everyday car, and in the quest for this they have lost the appeal for why people brought them in the first place (quite apart from the massive cost escalation).
IMHO Lotus need the Elise to get back to what it was supposed to be, a lightweight fun 2nd car, and get the price back down to the point where it's 2nd car money (in much the same way Caterham/Ginetta/etc are).
if they want to come up with everyday cars (as in what the Evora should be) then they need to compete on level terms with what's out there as everyday cars, that's not to say handling is not important, but the typical everyday only car customer is not going to be turning up at trackdays to explore the delights of the cars handling, he's going to be stuck in traffic with the rest of us, at which point fit & finish, creature comforts, space, noise, etc all become the priority.
this then comes down to top-trumps again, at which point the Evora get's hammered on just about any metric.
Scuffers said:
Nail >>> Head.
I have owned Elise's since '97, and much as I love them, it's very much a toy car to me, I have a nice comfy shopping trolley for every day stuff.
the issue is that Lotus have spent the last few years trying to make the Elise an everyday car, and in the quest for this they have lost the appeal for why people brought them in the first place (quite apart from the massive cost escalation).
IMHO Lotus need the Elise to get back to what it was supposed to be, a lightweight fun 2nd car, and get the price back down to the point where it's 2nd car money (in much the same way Caterham/Ginetta/etc are).
if they want to come up with everyday cars (as in what the Evora should be) then they need to compete on level terms with what's out there as everyday cars, that's not to say handling is not important, but the typical everyday only car customer is not going to be turning up at trackdays to explore the delights of the cars handling, he's going to be stuck in traffic with the rest of us, at which point fit & finish, creature comforts, space, noise, etc all become the priority.
this then comes down to top-trumps again, at which point the Evora get's hammered on just about any metric.
I don't agree with the last sentence though, linked to what you just said above it. Fit and finish is, especially on MY12, spot on, the leather seats and mood lit interior is a very nice place to be (better than a bland looking drab grey Porsche dash in my view), nice gruff V6 when you want to push on, hardly any noise when you want to bimble, great ride quality etc. I think the main problem is getting to people to try one, but I'm not sure that is purely down to top trumps type comparisons with other things they will try. I don't think the Evora is intended as an every day car, it just happens to do the job very well.I have owned Elise's since '97, and much as I love them, it's very much a toy car to me, I have a nice comfy shopping trolley for every day stuff.
the issue is that Lotus have spent the last few years trying to make the Elise an everyday car, and in the quest for this they have lost the appeal for why people brought them in the first place (quite apart from the massive cost escalation).
IMHO Lotus need the Elise to get back to what it was supposed to be, a lightweight fun 2nd car, and get the price back down to the point where it's 2nd car money (in much the same way Caterham/Ginetta/etc are).
if they want to come up with everyday cars (as in what the Evora should be) then they need to compete on level terms with what's out there as everyday cars, that's not to say handling is not important, but the typical everyday only car customer is not going to be turning up at trackdays to explore the delights of the cars handling, he's going to be stuck in traffic with the rest of us, at which point fit & finish, creature comforts, space, noise, etc all become the priority.
this then comes down to top-trumps again, at which point the Evora get's hammered on just about any metric.
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