RE: PH Blog: M5 talks dirty

[loudlashadjuster]

bmthnick1981 said:

Mr Whippy said:

Why BMW can't just buck the trend. Make a 5.0 turbo with 500bhp as a rapid express by all means, but why not make one with an NA 6 pot and about 350bhp, and then spend the £25,000 left on carbon everywhere, and make it super light/agile and a driving tool beyond autobahn express?!

Good post. An F10 M535i with a NA 6 pot 3.5 engine producing circa 350bhp could be great like the E28 and E34 M535's of old. Don't offer any spec choices on it, cloth seats with manual adjustment only, no shat nav, simple suspension, manual box, don't over wheel or over tyre it, less sound proofing etc, simple stereo and maybe even wind up windows! Keep it simple and offer it at £35k rather than £70k+..... I can dream!

Considering the boggo 530i is £35k list I'd think it'd have to be a bit north of that price, unfortunately.

Drawing on fairly recent history, a 530Si would make an interesting proposition. Bespoke, revvy hand-fettled engine putting out ~320hp (15-20% more than standard), mild weight loss programme, better damping, lightweight wheels/glass etc.

Even with these limited mods and no homologation rules driving a low sales price I would think you're looking at £40-45k. Future collectors' item...if you can get enough people to ignore the more tax-efficient diesel option, which is perhaps the main problem in today's legislative climate.

[urquattro]

It would be good to get a further view on the two cars in this thread, an independent view of someone who has used both, can provide a considered opinion and us PHers can judge from this/their response as opposed to caning the PH staff.

[Stuart]

urquattro said:

It would be good to get a further view on the two cars in this thread, an independent view of someone who has used both, can provide a considered opinion and us PHers can judge from this/their response as opposed to caning the PH staff.

Dan's view is certainly independent. That he has in the past worked for a Mercedes magazine doesn't mean that he has any professional bias against BMW product.

[Mermaid]

Stuart said:

That aside, I'll have one.

Me too, but I keep thinking that the gap between the lesser models & the mighty M5 has eroded considerably. The £80k M5 is not overwhelmingly interesting to me. But unlike the E60, will be an interesting proposition at circa £50k

[Stuart]

Mermaid said:

Me too, but I keep thinking that the gap between the lesser models & the mighty M5 has eroded considerably. The £80k M5 is not overwhelmingly interesting to me. But unlike the E60, will be an interesting proposition at circa £50k

Yes, that's a very good point. I suppose that when I say one I tend automatically to mean when it has depreciated, and not now when it is that much cash. £80k is a pretty nice shopping expedition around our classifieds...

Dan and I were in Bracknell yesterday. BMW have just taken an E60 M5 onto their heritage fleet, and it is the one with the matte silver paint scheme. Looked flipping terrific (although it was on 167Ms, which I'm not so keen on) next to the F10 in their reception area.

[davejw]

In the old days, it was the camshaft, carb/injection and timing that determined the character of the engine, now it's all in the ECU and the character is being 'designed by programmer'. I've not driven the M5 but have driven the 1M and I was soooo disappointed - it was very capable, seriously quick but character free - I hope when I do get behind the wheel of the M5 that BMW have not gone down the same route.

[j123]

I think evo's Barker had it written up and explained very well right here...

"It’s harder work at the same pace in the M5, firstly because to keep the XFR in range you’ve got to be in the right gear with the revs poised on the threshold of maximum torque. If you’re not, the Jag is gone in an instant. Keeping the revs of the warbling V10 up high and feeling the gearshifts thump home adds tension but that’s not all. Surprisingly, the M5’s steering feels less clean and direct and you’re more aware of the car’s weight, no matter what setting the electronic dampers are on.

I have driven many miles in M5s including a few laps of the Nürburgring and I know that when you’re absolutely on it there’s no other saloon that rewards and involves to the same degree. I’d say that still holds true. But for the other 99 per cent of the time I reckon the XFR has the measure of it. This remarkable Jaguar does long-distance comfort and effortless everyday usability, yet there, just below the surface, on demand, is a direct, no-nonsense, steely-edged supersaloon."


....if anyone can understand what he wrote about concerning the past v10 M5 I'd appreciate to hear what you think about it. Its a (along with Mr. Cross from Jag) very smart, very realistic view of such cars as these. Please have at it...
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/2341... j

Edited by j123 on Saturday 21st January 20:45

[Mr Whippy]

E38Ross said:

bmthnick1981 said:

Mr Whippy said:

Why BMW can't just buck the trend. Make a 5.0 turbo with 500bhp as a rapid express by all means, but why not make one with an NA 6 pot and about 350bhp, and then spend the £25,000 left on carbon everywhere, and make it super light/agile and a driving tool beyond autobahn express?!

Good post. An F10 M535i with a NA 6 pot 3.5 engine producing circa 350bhp could be great like the E28 and E34 M535's of old. Don't offer any spec choices on it, cloth seats with manual adjustment only, no shat nav, simple suspension, manual box, don't over wheel or over tyre it, less sound proofing etc, simple stereo and maybe even wind up windows! Keep it simple and offer it at £35k rather than £70k+..... I can dream!

the reason why they don't do that is because they'd only be really wanted by the people who can't afford them.

lets face it, who wants a stripped out 4 door saloon car with big power these days....those who can afford them want a bit of luxury.

the M5 has NEVER been a stripped out 4 door saloon, it's always been laden with the most tech around at the time.

It doesn't need to be stripped out.

Just spend the money you do on adaptive bolsters, adaptive steering, adaptive dampers, adaptive feck knows what else, mega silly engine, super expensive DSG gearbox strapped to it... and just spend it on carbon/aluminium panels, a set of really good fixed setting dampers etc.

Yes expensive, they'd sell not many, but it'd show BMW can still make M cars for people who want M cars.


I'm surprised people need so much st in cars these days. I'm distracted enough with a selection of 20gig or so of music to listen to, never mind 10 damper settings, 10 throttle settings, 10 gearbox settings, 10 god knows what else settings...


I'll go out on a limb. Apart from the speed, I bet I'd find the new M5 as dull as ditch water to actually *drive* on a sunday morning razz out next to an old M5... any of them.

Gah

Dave

[Munich]

redgriff500 said:

Unless things have changed the main reason the M5 doesn't compare to any AMG Merc is that the one is a manual and the other is for old men / city dwellers.

I didn't realise MB offered the AMG with a manual. That's a first.

[E38Ross]

Mr Whippy said:

I'll go out on a limb. Apart from the speed, I bet I'd find the new M5 as dull as ditch water to actually *drive* on a sunday morning razz out next to an old M5... any of them.

Gah

Dave

it's funny isn't it. you saying it's not as good to "drive" on a sunday morning, but it obviously being better for day to day driving (as the journos have said); yet criticism for the last one was the complete opposite....great for a hoon, not good for day to day. BMW try to correct that and they still get people moaning.

and all those "confusing" things about gearbox settings, damper settings etc (by the way, there aren't 10, i think it's closer to 3) are things you only need to set up once. not every time you drive the car....that would be annoying.

i'd love to be able to make my car firmer and more sure-footed when pressing on, and softer for a more relaxed drive for the motorway or around town at the touch of a button if i'm honest.

i understand why people don't like it, but i think, on the whole, they're forgetting what even the first M5s were about. full of all the tech around at the time, with lots of power and a good drive. i don't think it's changed that much in that respect.

still, better cancel your order then Dave

[E38Ross]

Munich said:

redgriff500 said:

Unless things have changed the main reason the M5 doesn't compare to any AMG Merc is that the one is a manual and the other is for old men / city dwellers.

I didn't realise MB offered the AMG with a manual. That's a first.

they don't, it's a true slushbox if i'm not mistaken. the M5 can be fully manual (though i suspect the AMGs can be too....?)

[j123]

eRoss says:
"it's funny isn't it. you saying it's not as good to "drive" on a sunday morning, but it obviously being better for day to day driving (as the journos have said); yet criticism for the last one was the complete opposite....great for a hoon, not good for day to day. BMW try to correct that and they still get people moaning."

Yes the old v10 M5 had its problems but its still a lighter and more agile car then the new. But really what about the XFR? Better than the bunch says Barker- is his voice no longer relevant in journalistic circles giving way to Harris and Trent? Seems he founded evo with Meaden and they darn well know what they're talking about- even if they dont write much these days. j

Edited by j123 on Saturday 21st January 21:12

[Munich]

E38Ross said:

they don't, it's a true slushbox if i'm not mistaken. the M5 can be fully manual (though i suspect the AMGs can be too....?)

The M5 has a DCT while the AMG has the 7-Tronic AT (although it could have a wet clutch instead of a torque converter like the SLS).

[tommy vercetti]

Have a feeling that this car will be loved very much in a couple of years, just like the E60.
Also just like the e63, this has twin turbos, and more power, so why not much criticism for that, and lastly put all the "purist" bullst aside, I thought people liked turbos ?

[Munich]

Vilhelm said:

I would never buy a car that plays an engine sound through the sound system.

I have read and heard this sentiment a lot about the F10M and to be honest I don't understand the issue. I have to admit that I was also a little put off when I first heard about this but thinking about it, it is only another technical solution to what other manufacturers have been doing for years. Porsche said when they launched the 996 that they worked on the exhaust for ages to get the sound to resemble that of the air-cooled engines - the noise that comes out of the exhaust of current 911s is engineered to sound how we think it should sound based on their heritage and not how a water-cooled Porsche engine would normally sound.

Turbo charge engines have a reputation for not producing a great noise in comparison to NA engines so I suppose BMW thought they would enhance it a bit, and once you drive one you will not have an issue.

[LHD]

Chris Harris said:

g3org3y said:

Does anyone know if it's on the cards for this model?

BMW M has categorically stated that there will be no M5 Touring.

Which, based on past experience, means it'll be launched sometime in 2014.

Or you can have a B5 Touring right now.

Which is where my wedge would go.

[fluffnik]

[redacted]

[fluffnik]

E38Ross said:

i understand why people don't like it, but i think, on the whole, they're forgetting what even the first M5s were about. full of all the tech around at the time, with lots of power and a good drive. i don't think it's changed that much in that respect.

Four armchairs at 150mph or over a high pass to dinner half a continent away...

[fluffnik]

LHD said:

Or you can have a B5 Touring right now.

Which is where my wedge would go.

>rummages down back of sofa<

[fluffnik]

tonym911 said:

The last M5 Touring was a commercial disaster, nobody bought it. It's one of those cars that those of us who can't afford it think should be bought in bulk by those who can.

Touring requires range...