Steer-by-wire

[buggalugs]

thinfourth2 said:

buggalugs said:

Getting back to the steering thing, ESP with full steering control would be pretty much unbeatable. How many lives will that save? The likes of Volvo's autobrake radar system can now steer around things as well as just brake, more lives saved.

I don't get how people can think that some metal sticks are better than this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNi17YLnZpg

i can't wait

That Volvo system has saved my sister from a crash so it's OK by me!

[CoolHands]

I thought I was a moaning old git, but it seems from this thread I have some way to go...

I imagine some people moaned about servo brakes when they came in, or abs, or even, I don't know, fly by wire throttles, or fuel injection etc etc being stuck in a time warp isn't necessarily good you know

[Gooly]

Assisting a mechanical system is completely different to removing the mechanical system all together (which will be the inevitable end result if this becomes popular). The whole "well people complained when PAS was introduced" is a moot argument. A decent PAS system has almost as much feel as a non-PAS system, an electric system will never have the same feel and feedback, and even if they manage to program it in you will always know that it's not the road that's telling you what it's like, it's a computer. It's not real.

[The Wookie]

Futuramic said:

Agreed, but you'd still need some kind of mechanical stop mechanism to provide a reference point for where the wheels were facing. If the wheel was free to rotate infinitely in either direction the driver would lose all relationship between it and the tyres. For this reason it would need some kind of lock to lock simulator.

You already get this on many computer game steering wheels, not sure how it works admittedly as I haven't taken one to bits!

[The Wookie]

RenesisEvo said:

it is all about the aero platform, plus the current Pirellis require a soft rear for traction to avoid killing them, so the front looks very stiff by comparison - backwards to a BTCC car. F1 is what I do so unfortunately I can't see me being able to put your excellent advice to use anytime soon, but I'll certainly be looking at the problem with a fresh view, thanks.

Interesting... Funny enough another conversation we had yesterday was about this. I didn't see the whole of the GP last weekend, but a couple of the guys spotted that the McLaren was actually lifting an inside rear wheel at a couple of places. Surely that can't be a desirable trait!?

[Twincam16]

buggalugs said:

Twincam16 said:

buggalugs said:

renrut said:

sjg said:

The Nissan system as linked has three ECUs - it would take all three to fail for the clutch in the steering column to need to be engaged.

If it's like the ones in aircraft, the ECUs monitor each other, and if one doesn't agree with the other two, it flags a warning and gets ignored (and possibly restarted).

So lets say you have 3 ecus. Are they from the same batch? Would they be running the same software? Do you have 3 sets of sensors or just one? What about the software testing? how rigorous would that be? What about faiilure? How much for a new one? what about the drive motors as I assume it would have to have at least 2 of those to guarantee safety and tbh they're more likely to burn out than the ecus? how much for one of them?

Massive introduced complexity just so some designer can put the driver on the back seat? So much for Occam's Razor.

You generally have 3 'different everything' ECUs. Sensor wise what they do with the throttle stuff is have two sensors which read the opposite way around, so say as you put your foot down one sensor sweeps from 5v to 0v and one goes from 0v to 5v. If they disagree go into limp mode. That way there's no way of something breaking and the ECU thinking everything's fine.

You also measure the position of the throttle plate using 2 sensors to make sure it's doing what you tell it to.

Finally the airflow that the MAF is seeing going into the engine should roughly correspond to how much throttle it's getting, again if not then limp mode or shutdown.

So short of some dumbass getting the pedal stuck under the floor mat there is a hell of a lot of safety there and it's probably quite a lot safer than having a little metal cable threaded round the engine bay.

Getting back to the steering thing, ESP with full steering control would be pretty much unbeatable. How many lives will that save? The likes of Volvo's autobrake radar system can now steer around things as well as just brake, more lives saved.

I don't get how people can think that some metal sticks are better than this.

Do you like driving?

Once this stuff gets everywhere, the EU will decide you 'can't argue' against it, and will make it mandatory in every single car.

Then you won't be allowed to drive your car on the assumption that it's far too dangerous for you to be trusted to do something you've done faultlessly for decades.

It's started already - black boxes that supposedly reduce your premiums but actually monitor to see how hard you're accelerating, braking and cornering and how fast you're going. Motorists who have never made a claim in their lives were reporting on You & Yours on R4 yesterday that these things had actually caused their premiums to increase unless they drove like a 1920s chauffeur.

Against a backdrop of all this technology, all this legislation and all the legal hell of telematics insurance, imagine trying to insure a car that's designed and built with simple driving pleasure in mind.

They'll be legislated off the road simply because of what they might do if you drove them like a berk.

On the same lines, surely all knives should be made out of brittle, wafer-thin plastic, and only professional chefs should be allowed metal ones, because if you had one and you didn't have the health and safety training, you could stab yourself or someone else with one. By the same token, let's get rid of glass bottles, after all they're heavy to transport and therefore use more fuel, and if they break the shards could hurt someone. They're indefensible so let's ban them - now your Chateau Lafitte will come in the same kind of plastic bottle as family-size Pepsi. Cricket bats should be made of lightweight hollow airflow plastic as well, as should golf clubs and baseball bats. And while we're at it, what about the perils of cycling. Very, very dangerous, so dangerous you're more likely to get killed doing that than anything else, so rather than a little plastic thing covering the top of your head, you need full body armour and a disclaimer to waiver any life insurance you may have. Crossing the road - gadzooks that's lethal! Wouldn't do that unless you're wearing a motorbike helmet. And as for motorbikes? Terrifying! Ban ban ban ban ban.

It's overkill that wouldn't be tolerated in any other walk of life, so why is it legislated in cars? It's stupid.

I feel where you're coming from but I don't think that keeping everything more dangerous than it needs to be in order that some dangerous things don't stand out so much is the most solid argument.

OK then.

Imagine I'm an EU safety commissioner. I mandated ESP, ABS and airbags in all cars, and every year I raise standards, demanding that manufacturers build cars to accommodate whatever new system has been waved under my nose with a nice backhander.

I don't drive, in fact I am driven everywhere, and I'm not a petrolhead. In fact, I'm a fully paid-up member of the MMGW lobby. As far as I'm concerned, cars are just a method of moving people around and according to statistics, they have the potential to be dangerous. I only really respect them because they make so much money for Europe and keep so many Europeans employed.

Part of my job is to decide on how NCAP star ratings translate into insurance premiums. The more features a car incorporates, the more stars it gets, the cheaper it is to insure.

So, I'd like you to justify to me why you feel I should grant you permission to drive your BMW E30. Go ahead, the floor is yours. I'll answer in EU-speak.

[The Black Flash]

hesnotthemessiah said:

Not long now.......

First thing that came to mind. Artificial sounds, artificial steering feel, throttle response if the computer decides you're allowed it. I'm not really feeling this whole "progress" thing. It was supposed to be flying cars, not some dystopia where all joy has been removed for our safety.

[mat205125]

Gooly said:

Assisting a mechanical system is completely different to removing the mechanical system all together (which will be the inevitable end result if this becomes popular). The whole "well people complained when PAS was introduced" is a moot argument. A decent PAS system has almost as much feel as a non-PAS system, an electric system will never have the same feel and feedback, and even if they manage to program it in you will always know that it's not the road that's telling you what it's like, it's a computer. It's not real.

It's increasingly common, these days, for cars to use fly by wire throttles, where there is zero mechanical connection between the right foot and the throttle butterfly in the inlet.

Without prior knowledge, and therefore preconcieved prejudice, of whether a car is so equipped, it's nearly impossible to detect whether the car you are driving has a throttle cable or electronic actuator.

[kambites]

mat205125 said:

Without prior knowledge, and therefore preconcieved prejudice, of whether a car is so equipped, it's nearly impossible to detect whether the car you are driving has a throttle cable or electronic actuator.

You can easily tell that a badly implemented electronic throttle isn't a cable; you can't tell a good one though.

However, the throttle pedal is not really a control that provides feedback to the driver - as long as the response is linear and the spring rating is right then it's fine; the steering is.

[Twincam16]

mat205125 said:

Gooly said:

Assisting a mechanical system is completely different to removing the mechanical system all together (which will be the inevitable end result if this becomes popular). The whole "well people complained when PAS was introduced" is a moot argument. A decent PAS system has almost as much feel as a non-PAS system, an electric system will never have the same feel and feedback, and even if they manage to program it in you will always know that it's not the road that's telling you what it's like, it's a computer. It's not real.

It's increasingly common, these days, for cars to use fly by wire throttles, where there is zero mechanical connection between the right foot and the throttle butterfly in the inlet.

Without prior knowledge, and therefore preconcieved prejudice, of whether a car is so equipped, it's nearly impossible to detect whether the car you are driving has a throttle cable or electronic actuator.

It is.

From a standstill, stamp on the accelerator pedal of a cable-operated car. There is linearity of control, and if you are rough and reckless with it, it will translate into wheelspin and slithering.

Do the same with a DBW throttle and no matter how rough you are, it'll pull away progressively.

I find increasingly with modern cars that they actually drive better if you drive like an idiot, hoofing and slamming and hauling on everything. Try and do everything neatly and carefully and things like the Toyota Avensis I've been running around in this week are jiggly and nervous and return no feedback through their controls whatsoever. But if you stamp on everything and steer with one finger, the car 'does everything for you' and to the outside world it looks like you're driving perfectly well.

It's a terrible state of affairs and I hate it. It's like everything these days - if you take pride in something, take time to learn how to do things better, your efforts are rubbished on the assumption that because some people don't know what they're doing, no-one is to be trusted and mass dumbing-down is sold to us in the name of 'convenience.'

No wonder kids don't have the concentration to read a book any more. And what's the knock-on effect for the future? People seem content to shaft the economy taking out loans and signing up to remote-extraction deals in order to do everything 'easily' and electronically, people have ended up dependent on expensive things they can barely afford, but that can't be repaired, and puts mechanics out of work.

How is this 'progress'? A world full of helpless babies?

[BriC175]

Twincam16 said:

It's a terrible state of affairs and I hate it. It's like everything these days - if you take pride in something, take time to learn how to do things better, your efforts are rubbished on the assumption that because some people don't know what they're doing, no-one is to be trusted and mass dumbing-down is sold to us in the name of 'convenience.'

No wonder kids don't have the concentration to read a book any more. And what's the knock-on effect for the future? People seem content to shaft the economy taking out loans and signing up to remote-extraction deals in order to do everything 'easily' and electronically, people have ended up dependent on expensive things they can barely afford, but that can't be repaired, and puts mechanics out of work.

How is this 'progress'? A world full of helpless babies?

Hit the nail on the head - a point I was tempted to raise earlier, but didn't, as I could see people rubishing it.

At risk of sounding like a tin foil hat wearing luddite, we're all being turned into brainless slaves of the 'system'. Health and safety, excessive regulations, dumbing down, etc removes the requirement for people to think for themselves and it's a downward spiral.

Put simply, make things idiot proof, and nature just makes better idiots.

[Twincam16]

BriC175 said:

Twincam16 said:

It's a terrible state of affairs and I hate it. It's like everything these days - if you take pride in something, take time to learn how to do things better, your efforts are rubbished on the assumption that because some people don't know what they're doing, no-one is to be trusted and mass dumbing-down is sold to us in the name of 'convenience.'

No wonder kids don't have the concentration to read a book any more. And what's the knock-on effect for the future? People seem content to shaft the economy taking out loans and signing up to remote-extraction deals in order to do everything 'easily' and electronically, people have ended up dependent on expensive things they can barely afford, but that can't be repaired, and puts mechanics out of work.

How is this 'progress'? A world full of helpless babies?

Hit the nail on the head - a point I was tempted to raise earlier, but didn't, as I could see people rubishing it.

At risk of sounding like a tin foil hat wearing luddite, we're all being turned into brainless slaves of the 'system'. Health and safety, excessive regulations, dumbing down, etc removes the requirement for people to think for themselves and it's a downward spiral.

Put simply, make things idiot proof, and nature just makes better idiots.

Precisely.

I just see all these safety things (and the toxic addition of the EU making them compulsory as an extension to its total-control agenda) as actually rather dangerous as soon as they involve removing human input.

We can't put too much reliance on systems that can't be easily understood and repaired. We see even now that governments and states can go from seeming very rich to having absolutely bugger-all in a relatively short space of time, and before you know it, complicated expensive things that people once thought were futuristic and eagerly ploughed all their money into can quickly look like expensive follies.

I'm amazed people spend so much on phones, and having bought said phone, attempt to do absolutely everything in their life on it. Someone I know was like this until her phone was stolen, and the effect of the loss was roughly equivalent to me suffering a nasty house fire. 'Eggs' and 'baskets' spring immediately to mind.

We spend £hundreds on phones, and yet we seem to throw them away with abandon, not bothering to repair them, always wanting the latest model. I worked out once that a mate of mine who is a total iThetan of the Church of Appleology spent roughly the same on 'gadgets' every year as I spent on my car.

I really don't think it's healthy to breed a population that's so dependent and unresourceful, especially as the future economic climate is uncertain, it's highly likely that in future we'll have to repair rather than replace, and our economic rivals in rapidly-developing economies are full of highly resourceful individuals who aren't hobbled by exaggerated 'fears' in the way that we are. Try telling an Indian entrepreneur, possibly even a billionnaire, that we're scared to drive anywhere without all these systems keeping us in check and we're lost without our smartphones and he'll laugh, roll his eyes and mutter something about 'no wonder you Europeans are all in trouble.'

The 'smartphonisation' of the economy is an extremely worrying development indeed, and one I fear will end in further economic catastrophe.

[renrut]

buggalugs said:

renrut said:

sjg said:

The Nissan system as linked has three ECUs - it would take all three to fail for the clutch in the steering column to need to be engaged.

If it's like the ones in aircraft, the ECUs monitor each other, and if one doesn't agree with the other two, it flags a warning and gets ignored (and possibly restarted).

So lets say you have 3 ecus. Are they from the same batch? Would they be running the same software? Do you have 3 sets of sensors or just one? What about the software testing? how rigorous would that be? What about faiilure? How much for a new one? what about the drive motors as I assume it would have to have at least 2 of those to guarantee safety and tbh they're more likely to burn out than the ecus? how much for one of them?

Massive introduced complexity just so some designer can put the driver on the back seat? So much for Occam's Razor.

You generally have 3 'different everything' ECUs. Sensor wise what they do with the throttle stuff is have two sensors which read the opposite way around, so say as you put your foot down one sensor sweeps from 5v to 0v and one goes from 0v to 5v. If they disagree go into limp mode. That way there's no way of something breaking and the ECU thinking everything's fine.

You also measure the position of the throttle plate using 2 sensors to make sure it's doing what you tell it to.

Finally the airflow that the MAF is seeing going into the engine should roughly correspond to how much throttle it's getting, again if not then limp mode or shutdown.

So short of some dumbass getting the pedal stuck under the floor mat there is a hell of a lot of safety there and it's probably quite a lot safer than having a little metal cable threaded round the engine bay.

Getting back to the steering thing, ESP with full steering control would be pretty much unbeatable. How many lives will that save? The likes of Volvo's autobrake radar system can now steer around things as well as just brake, more lives saved.

I don't get how people can think that some metal sticks are better than this.

If you can't see why a fundamentally simple system that can be very well described by a few statements and tested to a very high level easily is better then the argument is lost on you. You're talking about inventing the space pen when the pencil is perfectly adequate.

[RenesisEvo]

The Wookie said:

Interesting... Funny enough another conversation we had yesterday was about this. I didn't see the whole of the GP last weekend, but a couple of the guys spotted that the McLaren was actually lifting an inside rear wheel at a couple of places. Surely that can't be a desirable trait!?

It's very hard to find somewhere to begin on that, and I agree it doesn't initially seem desirable, but I can offer two things to consider. Firstly, this season has been all about the tyre - there's no point chasing a couple of tenths of lap time through aerodynamic optimisation (including suspension stiffness etc. to control the platform through the ride height range) when a set-up that gets the tyres working could give you whole seconds. It is possible they found something different that worked for them. Secondly, lifting the inside rear to me implies very high rear roll stiffness - Hamilton's rear anti-roll bar failed on Lap 18 at Korea (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103452) - if it locked solid when it failed, it could explain the odd behaviour.

[buggalugs]

Twincam16 said:

buggalugs said:

Twincam16 said:

buggalugs said:

renrut said:

sjg said:

The Nissan system as linked has three ECUs - it would take all three to fail for the clutch in the steering column to need to be engaged.

If it's like the ones in aircraft, the ECUs monitor each other, and if one doesn't agree with the other two, it flags a warning and gets ignored (and possibly restarted).

So lets say you have 3 ecus. Are they from the same batch? Would they be running the same software? Do you have 3 sets of sensors or just one? What about the software testing? how rigorous would that be? What about faiilure? How much for a new one? what about the drive motors as I assume it would have to have at least 2 of those to guarantee safety and tbh they're more likely to burn out than the ecus? how much for one of them?

Massive introduced complexity just so some designer can put the driver on the back seat? So much for Occam's Razor.

You generally have 3 'different everything' ECUs. Sensor wise what they do with the throttle stuff is have two sensors which read the opposite way around, so say as you put your foot down one sensor sweeps from 5v to 0v and one goes from 0v to 5v. If they disagree go into limp mode. That way there's no way of something breaking and the ECU thinking everything's fine.

You also measure the position of the throttle plate using 2 sensors to make sure it's doing what you tell it to.

Finally the airflow that the MAF is seeing going into the engine should roughly correspond to how much throttle it's getting, again if not then limp mode or shutdown.

So short of some dumbass getting the pedal stuck under the floor mat there is a hell of a lot of safety there and it's probably quite a lot safer than having a little metal cable threaded round the engine bay.

Getting back to the steering thing, ESP with full steering control would be pretty much unbeatable. How many lives will that save? The likes of Volvo's autobrake radar system can now steer around things as well as just brake, more lives saved.

I don't get how people can think that some metal sticks are better than this.

Do you like driving?

Once this stuff gets everywhere, the EU will decide you 'can't argue' against it, and will make it mandatory in every single car.

Then you won't be allowed to drive your car on the assumption that it's far too dangerous for you to be trusted to do something you've done faultlessly for decades.

It's started already - black boxes that supposedly reduce your premiums but actually monitor to see how hard you're accelerating, braking and cornering and how fast you're going. Motorists who have never made a claim in their lives were reporting on You & Yours on R4 yesterday that these things had actually caused their premiums to increase unless they drove like a 1920s chauffeur.

Against a backdrop of all this technology, all this legislation and all the legal hell of telematics insurance, imagine trying to insure a car that's designed and built with simple driving pleasure in mind.

They'll be legislated off the road simply because of what they might do if you drove them like a berk.

On the same lines, surely all knives should be made out of brittle, wafer-thin plastic, and only professional chefs should be allowed metal ones, because if you had one and you didn't have the health and safety training, you could stab yourself or someone else with one. By the same token, let's get rid of glass bottles, after all they're heavy to transport and therefore use more fuel, and if they break the shards could hurt someone. They're indefensible so let's ban them - now your Chateau Lafitte will come in the same kind of plastic bottle as family-size Pepsi. Cricket bats should be made of lightweight hollow airflow plastic as well, as should golf clubs and baseball bats. And while we're at it, what about the perils of cycling. Very, very dangerous, so dangerous you're more likely to get killed doing that than anything else, so rather than a little plastic thing covering the top of your head, you need full body armour and a disclaimer to waiver any life insurance you may have. Crossing the road - gadzooks that's lethal! Wouldn't do that unless you're wearing a motorbike helmet. And as for motorbikes? Terrifying! Ban ban ban ban ban.

It's overkill that wouldn't be tolerated in any other walk of life, so why is it legislated in cars? It's stupid.

I feel where you're coming from but I don't think that keeping everything more dangerous than it needs to be in order that some dangerous things don't stand out so much is the most solid argument.

OK then.

Imagine I'm an EU safety commissioner. I mandated ESP, ABS and airbags in all cars, and every year I raise standards, demanding that manufacturers build cars to accommodate whatever new system has been waved under my nose with a nice backhander.

I don't drive, in fact I am driven everywhere, and I'm not a petrolhead. In fact, I'm a fully paid-up member of the MMGW lobby. As far as I'm concerned, cars are just a method of moving people around and according to statistics, they have the potential to be dangerous. I only really respect them because they make so much money for Europe and keep so many Europeans employed.

Part of my job is to decide on how NCAP star ratings translate into insurance premiums. The more features a car incorporates, the more stars it gets, the cheaper it is to insure.

So, I'd like you to justify to me why you feel I should grant you permission to drive your BMW E30. Go ahead, the floor is yours. I'll answer in EU-speak.

I don't expect I will have permission to drive my death trap wherever I please in say 50 years time. Lots of peoples hobbies have become illegal over history and they were all upset about it too. I'm an enthusiast minority and the ignorant 'moral' majority is going to fk me. I just hope that when it comes they are gentle, or maybe that I'm dead

[Kozy]

buggalugs said:

I don't expect I will have permission to drive my death trap wherever I please in say 50 years time. Lots of peoples hobbies have become illegal over history and they were all upset about it too. I'm an enthusiast minority and the ignorant 'moral' majority is going to fk me. I just hope that when it comes they are gentle, or maybe that I'm dead

STOP QUOTING THE WHOLE DAMN CONVERSATION.

Thankyou.

[buggalugs]

renrut said:

If you can't see why a fundamentally simple system that can be very well described by a few statements and tested to a very high level easily is better then the argument is lost on you. You're talking about inventing the space pen when the pencil is perfectly adequate.

Well I'm going out on a limb because it's not even for sale yet, but for the sake of argument let's say it's better because it works better and provides more safety and performance for more of the time.

[PanzerCommander]

Twincam16 said:

Do the same with a DBW throttle and no matter how rough you are, it'll pull away progressively.

It won't, depends how it is setup. My car will slither all over the place if I slam my right foot to the floor on the accelerator pedal, it is as progressive or as dumb as it is setup to be.

[fourwheelsteer]

Whilst I'm not convinced about the merits of steer-by-wire the steering wheel does have limitations when you think about it.

Imagine you've been sat in a car that has had one full turn of steering lock applied. What does the position of the wheel tell you about the direction in which the wheels are pointing? For that matter imagine 350 degrees of left lock has been applied; the wheel appears to be pointing in the opposite direction to that described by the wheels. Of course this doesn't matter while you're driving because you can see where you're going and are unlikely to have wound on that much lock anyway.

The wheel also seems perfectly placed to inflict injury. An airbag might reduce injury but how much better would things be if the wheel were not there? And if you are very tall or very short then the wheel can be more of a hindrance than a help in finding a comfortable driving position.

[renrut]

buggalugs said:

renrut said:

If you can't see why a fundamentally simple system that can be very well described by a few statements and tested to a very high level easily is better then the argument is lost on you. You're talking about inventing the space pen when the pencil is perfectly adequate.

Well I'm going out on a limb because it's not even for sale yet, but for the sake of argument let's say it's better because it works better and provides more safety and performance for more of the time.

Yup it is lost on you.