RE: PH Blog: the new driving
Discussion
Interesting article and some well made points.
I'd give my right eye for some recent metal - I love the new gadgets and bits (on paper) and the idea of "progress"; alas, I'm stuck in an old(er) car and the most modern thing I own is the Monaro.. or the 2004 320d depending on who you believe. Neither, in my eyes, are particularly great at feedback. The 320 feels heavy and lethargic; the Monaro just feels big. I love it, don't get me wrong - but it can't hide it's weight (and has no electronics to aid in doing so).
I honestly think that car manufacturers have little or no choice in their model advancement - except perhaps Aston Martin - with each generation of car model they have to come up with a reason for Joe Public to buy-in. Why would you otherwise? We're all guilty of it even if not with cars - home appliances or computers or worst of all, mobile phones. Newer is better. Gimmie!
I'd give my right eye for some recent metal - I love the new gadgets and bits (on paper) and the idea of "progress"; alas, I'm stuck in an old(er) car and the most modern thing I own is the Monaro.. or the 2004 320d depending on who you believe. Neither, in my eyes, are particularly great at feedback. The 320 feels heavy and lethargic; the Monaro just feels big. I love it, don't get me wrong - but it can't hide it's weight (and has no electronics to aid in doing so).
I honestly think that car manufacturers have little or no choice in their model advancement - except perhaps Aston Martin - with each generation of car model they have to come up with a reason for Joe Public to buy-in. Why would you otherwise? We're all guilty of it even if not with cars - home appliances or computers or worst of all, mobile phones. Newer is better. Gimmie!
What we need to satisfy everyone is the tech from the MP4 12C on the ride to filter down. Then the divs who want to have a 'sporty' ride on some terrible roads can rattle their stupid brains out, while normal people can waft over them. Then when we want to go for a spirited drive we can stiffen the whole chassis up and enjoy it.
Then there's the steering. Well everyone is complaining about electronic steering not having the feel (me included) as everyone switches to it. But surely the tech will advance again to give us the feel in these systems (?) afterall they are the brand new in most cases. A bit like the DSG of old which (I thought) was a bit rubbish, the latest version is much better (Obviously still not better than a 3rd pedal and a gearstick when you're 'on it' but opinions etc blah blah)
Then there's the steering. Well everyone is complaining about electronic steering not having the feel (me included) as everyone switches to it. But surely the tech will advance again to give us the feel in these systems (?) afterall they are the brand new in most cases. A bit like the DSG of old which (I thought) was a bit rubbish, the latest version is much better (Obviously still not better than a 3rd pedal and a gearstick when you're 'on it' but opinions etc blah blah)
Agent Orange said:
Completely agree and I posted about this a while back when driving a Gallardo. One of the dullest cars I've ever driven.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I recently bought a Caterham - the complete opposite end of the scale and truth be told the Caterham gives me way bigger smiles. WAY bigger.
I can't deny, and would be foolish to suggest otherwise, that the Gallardo is a far superior car to the Caterham in every single respect - bar the size of the grin it can put across your face.
Plus the fact you can enjoy a Caterham at legal and safe speeds and be involved in the the driving experience to boot!http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I recently bought a Caterham - the complete opposite end of the scale and truth be told the Caterham gives me way bigger smiles. WAY bigger.
I can't deny, and would be foolish to suggest otherwise, that the Gallardo is a far superior car to the Caterham in every single respect - bar the size of the grin it can put across your face.
Good call. 
Evidence that theEmperor's latest Audi S-line or BMW M-Sport 'look' is detrimental to dynamics is everywhere - just pick a circuit car and look at the sidewalls, especially F1 - but no one wants to see it.
I've not doubt, having driven examples myself, that is is possible to get grip with lo-pro tyres, but it is always at the expense of ultimate grip and feel. The crux, I feel though, is that lo-pro tyres give an additional style tweek (to add to vents, spoilers, 'sports seats', graphics, daft badges and the like) for the marketing men.
Monkey said:
Actually, I can answer that, it was the berks in the marketing department - but this fallacy of stiff springs and zero tyre sidewall has meant that virtually all new cars sold in the UK do not ride well.
When I was sprinting and hillclimbing (not very well I might add) I had my car set-up by someone who knew, better than most a.) how to win races and b.) how to set up chassis. It was he that drummed into me the fact that, above all, lower profile tyres - whilst they will look great - would do no favours for either ride quality or grip.Evidence that the
I've not doubt, having driven examples myself, that is is possible to get grip with lo-pro tyres, but it is always at the expense of ultimate grip and feel. The crux, I feel though, is that lo-pro tyres give an additional style tweek (to add to vents, spoilers, 'sports seats', graphics, daft badges and the like) for the marketing men.
I wonder if we are forgetting something here in our little clique...
People who want performance cars are somewhat of a niche. Of those, the people who are after the driving experience, and not merely after the badge, cache or numbers bragging, are a small niche within that other niche.
Most people buying cars aren't PHers. Even most people buying sporty cars aren't PHers. Hell, even many people who are car enthusiasts aren't actually *drivers*...
I have first hand experience.
The number of people I know, including so called car enthusiasts, who understand why I bought a 200 Cup, without me having to explain, number - one. Ignoring the French jibes, ignoring even the performance-per-£ armugment, most were confused either why I'd buy something so "basic", or why I bought something whose 0-60 time isn't anything to brag about among "GTIs" nowadays. "It's about the handling", I'd mumble, to bermused looks.
It is why I suspect (and seem to be on the right track) that struggling Renault will make the next Clio a gadget-fest, a car easier to show off, a more rounded package for the average buyer - there are more of them.
Depressing though it is, I think these bloated cars, larger, heavier, silly wheels and tyres for looks, bigger and bigger numbers on the stats, more and more gadgets etc etc - these are not driven by marketing, or safety - they are driven by the very market itself.
Us PHers are an ever smaller slice of that pie chart.
People who want performance cars are somewhat of a niche. Of those, the people who are after the driving experience, and not merely after the badge, cache or numbers bragging, are a small niche within that other niche.
Most people buying cars aren't PHers. Even most people buying sporty cars aren't PHers. Hell, even many people who are car enthusiasts aren't actually *drivers*...
I have first hand experience.
The number of people I know, including so called car enthusiasts, who understand why I bought a 200 Cup, without me having to explain, number - one. Ignoring the French jibes, ignoring even the performance-per-£ armugment, most were confused either why I'd buy something so "basic", or why I bought something whose 0-60 time isn't anything to brag about among "GTIs" nowadays. "It's about the handling", I'd mumble, to bermused looks.
It is why I suspect (and seem to be on the right track) that struggling Renault will make the next Clio a gadget-fest, a car easier to show off, a more rounded package for the average buyer - there are more of them.
Depressing though it is, I think these bloated cars, larger, heavier, silly wheels and tyres for looks, bigger and bigger numbers on the stats, more and more gadgets etc etc - these are not driven by marketing, or safety - they are driven by the very market itself.
Us PHers are an ever smaller slice of that pie chart.
Has anyone here ever driven a Citroen SM ? Bloody amazing. A 1972, yes 1972 car. Don't own one myself, but when I win the lottery, I'm going to buy one, and have it serioulsy brought upto scratch, and enjoy. I know a guy who has one, and he does all his own maintenance, and it's perfect, never let him down. Because he's taken the time to understand it. And for fun, it'll be an original Lotus Elan Sprint.
Digga said:
Good call.
Evidence that theEmperor's latest Audi S-line or BMW M-Sport 'look' is detrimental to dynamics is everywhere - just pick a circuit car and look at the sidewalls, especially F1 - but no one wants to see it.
I've not doubt, having driven examples myself, that is is possible to get grip with lo-pro tyres, but it is always at the expense of ultimate grip and feel. The crux, I feel though, is that lo-pro tyres give an additional style tweek (to add to vents, spoilers, 'sports seats', graphics, daft badges and the like) for the marketing men.
your friend may have been right but most styling is influenced by thisMonkey said:
Actually, I can answer that, it was the berks in the marketing department - but this fallacy of stiff springs and zero tyre sidewall has meant that virtually all new cars sold in the UK do not ride well.
When I was sprinting and hillclimbing (not very well I might add) I had my car set-up by someone who knew, better than most a.) how to win races and b.) how to set up chassis. It was he that drummed into me the fact that, above all, lower profile tyres - whilst they will look great - would do no favours for either ride quality or grip.Evidence that the
I've not doubt, having driven examples myself, that is is possible to get grip with lo-pro tyres, but it is always at the expense of ultimate grip and feel. The crux, I feel though, is that lo-pro tyres give an additional style tweek (to add to vents, spoilers, 'sports seats', graphics, daft badges and the like) for the marketing men.
and
low profiles abound
I agree that a lot of it is down to marketing departments/magazines playing to the general public's "Top Trumps" mentality (it is faster/wheels are bigger etc so it must be better), also new regulations, such as crash safety and fuel economy targets mean that cars can get higher ratings if a computer carefully controls things to avoid crashes/use less fuel, but take fun away from the driver. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks that this is a problem, hopefully the amount of GT86s and BRZs I'm seeing on the road is an indication that people are voting with their wallets and buying fun cars!
The MX-5 has been mentioned earlier in this thread, but the current model doesn't seem to get featured that much in magazines at the moment, but I'm struggling to thing of another car that has RWD, hydraulic steering, and LSD, is fun to drive and can be had new for well under £25k (in fact I was in the Mazda dealer yesterday and they had one with delivery miles for £13k!!!).
The MX-5 has been mentioned earlier in this thread, but the current model doesn't seem to get featured that much in magazines at the moment, but I'm struggling to thing of another car that has RWD, hydraulic steering, and LSD, is fun to drive and can be had new for well under £25k (in fact I was in the Mazda dealer yesterday and they had one with delivery miles for £13k!!!).
JuanGandini said:
The car you've outlined won't ever exist at that price...
vee5 said:
Oh and by the way the car that you describe doesn't exist.
If you read my post, I said that it doesn't exist. Nor do I expect it ever to. Amusingly, if you ignore my made-up finance numbers, the GT86 fits the criteria 
Prof Prolapse said:
Maybe the marketeers are right. Maybe the majority of people who buy new cars are clueless tossers?
Bingo!Demographics.
2% of car NEW buyers care about things such as steering feel, control weights, balance, composure, ride, handling ect ect.
49% care about image/status of owning the latest (insert your sporty model here) and don't know what good steering feels like.
49% dont care.
The marketeers tell the money men, money men constain the engineers.
So we end up with 49% of the people believing that a performance car should have a hard ride, fat steering wheel whose commandes are "assisted" by computers, because the 49% doesn't know how to drive them becaus as long as it looks right and portrays the correct image they are happy. These 49% breed with the 49% who don't care and the demographic swings further away from what it should be. Before long we can't even buy a car that you can change gear yourself.
Is legislation the main culprit here ?
E.g. Safety adding structure adding weight and generic front end profiles. CO2 targets delivering e-pas that (generally) numbs the helm. Indirectly, the politicians are configuring our cars….
Also too much emphasis on “technologies” (like HMI) and too little emphasis on excellence on the fundamentals (which are, imo, a visually desireable car, perceived / real quality and driving pleasure).
Do modern cars talk to you anymore, is there a dialogue between driver and car – er not really. Everything feels, numb, remote, isolated and unresponsive (as if the entire car is in a giant closed loop – car lagging behind the driver's inputs -- which with ESP, E-Throttle, it now is...
Would you want to invest in a modern era M3, or a new 991 ? Are they appealing like their forebears --- or are we just getting old and romantic for days gone by ?
Mind you, a Fezza 458 is a very good exception. That would be “ok” :-)
Closer to home, Toyota’s GT86 is a gallant attempt at reversing the trend – hopefully some of the lessons learnt by that team can be applied to a broader range of products….
E.g. Safety adding structure adding weight and generic front end profiles. CO2 targets delivering e-pas that (generally) numbs the helm. Indirectly, the politicians are configuring our cars….
Also too much emphasis on “technologies” (like HMI) and too little emphasis on excellence on the fundamentals (which are, imo, a visually desireable car, perceived / real quality and driving pleasure).
Do modern cars talk to you anymore, is there a dialogue between driver and car – er not really. Everything feels, numb, remote, isolated and unresponsive (as if the entire car is in a giant closed loop – car lagging behind the driver's inputs -- which with ESP, E-Throttle, it now is...
Would you want to invest in a modern era M3, or a new 991 ? Are they appealing like their forebears --- or are we just getting old and romantic for days gone by ?
Mind you, a Fezza 458 is a very good exception. That would be “ok” :-)
Closer to home, Toyota’s GT86 is a gallant attempt at reversing the trend – hopefully some of the lessons learnt by that team can be applied to a broader range of products….
herebebeasties said:
kambites said:
[...] If you and the rest of the media had gone out and utterly slated the 991 from the outset for its poor steering feel and general aloofness, Porsche might do something different next time...
Guess who pays the travel expenses and hotel bills to go to new car launches?and furthermore, “what are the engineers doing” ??
As in what are the objectives of the vehicle development process, what are the management priorities, what are the core skills within the development team, and who makes the product attribute decisions based on what criteria ?
In the “good old days” a significant part of R&D expenditure was focussed upon respected/experienced test drivers, test cars, analogue/empirical tuning – is this skill being lost ? I drove a mid-market 2012MY vehicle last week. It was dire for driveability, NVH, and secondary ride.
I observed truly skilled technicians and engineers with an intuitive appreciation of what makes a car great working at test tracks with real vehicles in the mid/late nineties. What about now - young guys sitting at desks with expensive but strictly digital CAE?
/ Swiss Tony Voice on
A car is like an instrument – a good driving experience is largely analogue, dictated by harmonics and timing, good cars are tuned to perfection by passionate and experienced experts – others (maybe the modern digital closed loop version) are a less satisfying off-kilter concoction
/ Swiss Tony Voice off
As in what are the objectives of the vehicle development process, what are the management priorities, what are the core skills within the development team, and who makes the product attribute decisions based on what criteria ?
In the “good old days” a significant part of R&D expenditure was focussed upon respected/experienced test drivers, test cars, analogue/empirical tuning – is this skill being lost ? I drove a mid-market 2012MY vehicle last week. It was dire for driveability, NVH, and secondary ride.
I observed truly skilled technicians and engineers with an intuitive appreciation of what makes a car great working at test tracks with real vehicles in the mid/late nineties. What about now - young guys sitting at desks with expensive but strictly digital CAE?
/ Swiss Tony Voice on
A car is like an instrument – a good driving experience is largely analogue, dictated by harmonics and timing, good cars are tuned to perfection by passionate and experienced experts – others (maybe the modern digital closed loop version) are a less satisfying off-kilter concoction
/ Swiss Tony Voice off
I agree but Chris is as much to blame as every other Automotive hack.
Show me a car magazine that has told the major car manufacturers that every car they bring out is too big, too heavy, too hard....The car magazines happily take the test car offered (which almost always has £10k plus of extras - or £20k for a BMW!) and then tell us that it is a level of excellent (even if one make is considered to be better than another, it is extremely rare that any of the big brand sports saloons are ever reported as being 'bad').
Then us punters are all brain washed into believeing we really 'need' the biggest wheels with the lowest profile tyres, the sports suspension, the sports transmission, oh and how could all of us budding racing drivers live without a LSD or AWD.
I am currently driving a hired Astra - it goes well, handles well, is quiet and comfortable. I still can't wait to get my A4 which I have spec'ed as a quattro with big wheels, low profile tyres, sports seats and of course comes with a flat bottomed steering wheel!
d
Show me a car magazine that has told the major car manufacturers that every car they bring out is too big, too heavy, too hard....The car magazines happily take the test car offered (which almost always has £10k plus of extras - or £20k for a BMW!) and then tell us that it is a level of excellent (even if one make is considered to be better than another, it is extremely rare that any of the big brand sports saloons are ever reported as being 'bad').
Then us punters are all brain washed into believeing we really 'need' the biggest wheels with the lowest profile tyres, the sports suspension, the sports transmission, oh and how could all of us budding racing drivers live without a LSD or AWD.
I am currently driving a hired Astra - it goes well, handles well, is quiet and comfortable. I still can't wait to get my A4 which I have spec'ed as a quattro with big wheels, low profile tyres, sports seats and of course comes with a flat bottomed steering wheel!
d jackpe said:
Harris,
Buy a Peugeot 306 XSi, fit it with an aftermarket Alpine ICE, the rag it up and down the Cowley Road in Oxford.
Ahhh.. all those raw driving emotions.
The Yellow Punto was faster though.
This. Feel free to replace with a 306 1.4 XL 5 door. It doesn't matter how big the engine is, as long as the front wheels go round to correct endless amounts of lift off oversteer, perfectly controllable, on demand Buy a Peugeot 306 XSi, fit it with an aftermarket Alpine ICE, the rag it up and down the Cowley Road in Oxford.
Ahhh.. all those raw driving emotions.
The Yellow Punto was faster though.
Feel free to upgrade to a rallye, standard except for some well chosen bilstein suspension as and when talent requires it. Saying goodbye to man in £59,000 brand new sports car on a B-road worrying about the mud getting on his 22" rims.
Digga said:
look at the sidewalls, especially F1 - but no one wants to see it
The big sidewalls in F1 is an anomaly - the rules dictate the tyre and wheel sizes, and these haven't been changed for aeons, and due to reluctance from the rotation of tyre manufactures and teams' themselves, there remains a lot of inertia regarding changing them. Further, given the dominance of aerodynamics in [high-end] motorsport, the tyre requirements are different - keeping the aerodynamic platform level and consistent means that small and stiff sidewalls are desirable.I disagree.
IF you want a safe mode of transport for the masses to drive their families in all weathers, then welcome the technology.
IF you want a play thing, get a TVR, Lotus, BMW 328i, etc and enjoy.
Cars are evolving & you can now pick the right tool for the job - hooning or A-to-B.
IF you want a safe mode of transport for the masses to drive their families in all weathers, then welcome the technology.
IF you want a play thing, get a TVR, Lotus, BMW 328i, etc and enjoy.
Cars are evolving & you can now pick the right tool for the job - hooning or A-to-B.
DJRC said:
Because the latest MX5 is an insult to the Mk1.
Have you owned (or driven) both?I find that the mk3.5 handles exactly like the original (the pre-facelift mk3 didn't), is just as much fun to drive but just that bit more refined too.
Edited by Craikeybaby on Wednesday 14th November 13:54
I think the majority of people just don't care. A car is a means to get from A to B and ship the kids about. That's why our roads are clogged by cars like these, generally driven by people who think the national speed limit is 48mph, place their sat-nav devices directly in their line of vision and have no idea what the rear view mirror is for...
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