RE: Chris Harris video: the Singer 911
Discussion
What a great video. I'm also glad you didn't chop this down to 12 minutes. I'm sure there will be people who don't watch it because it's too long but if these people end up being a majority I would urge you to do a 'directors cut' to appease those of us who would happily watch videos like this for hour.
As for the cars, incredible engineering, beautiful design but if I had half a million spare and wanted to go mad and treat myself to a special car I couldn't put this ahead of an F40 or F50. I imagine most of Singer's customers have rather more than half a million to blow if they wanted though.
As for the cars, incredible engineering, beautiful design but if I had half a million spare and wanted to go mad and treat myself to a special car I couldn't put this ahead of an F40 or F50. I imagine most of Singer's customers have rather more than half a million to blow if they wanted though.
I read about this in Evo a few months back and fell in love. I showed it to my 4 year old, who after asking me how much it cost he went and got me £2 out of his money box saying "here Dad you can have this towards it...".
Gutted I'm still about £200k short otherwise I'd have one in an instant...
Gutted I'm still about £200k short otherwise I'd have one in an instant...
Watching this, I got in trouble off the missus for ignoring her 
oops !
I love the concept, and the execution, listening to those guys shows that, even though this costs a lot of money, it isn't primarily a money making exercise, a brilliant use for 964's, I don't think anyone minds a few cooking 911's being turned into these.
The Singer name works, I don't know why, Singer building, Sewing machines and some dusty old Rootes stuff, a posh version of the Hillman Imp, for some reason it has a mystique and resonance beyond a few nicely re-engineered 911's since 2009, I think petrolheads can spot, and identify with instantly those doing it right, these arent just Range Rover Sports with a body kit and some 22 inch chrome wheels. This is, and I hesitate to use the word, a "Boutique" 911, in my mind at least, they are up there with Ruf already, a name that for me conjurers up a similar, but distinct image.
As for all the lottery stuff, it does remain a dream for most of the worlds petrolheads, but for the rest of us there is no reason why we cant try to emulate a little bit of that ethos in our own small way, there are guys already doing it, check in Readers cars on here and also on Retro rides or the build sections of any number of forums or magazines. It doesn't have to be a 911, a £1500 E30, a 944, Capri or even a Volvo, the recipe is the same, subtle aesthetic improvements, considered and complimentary modifications, attention to detail, usability and superb workmanship, not quite the same but short of $500,000, for a lot less there is no reason you cant do it, plus you get the satisfaction of having done it yourself.
oops !I love the concept, and the execution, listening to those guys shows that, even though this costs a lot of money, it isn't primarily a money making exercise, a brilliant use for 964's, I don't think anyone minds a few cooking 911's being turned into these.
The Singer name works, I don't know why, Singer building, Sewing machines and some dusty old Rootes stuff, a posh version of the Hillman Imp, for some reason it has a mystique and resonance beyond a few nicely re-engineered 911's since 2009, I think petrolheads can spot, and identify with instantly those doing it right, these arent just Range Rover Sports with a body kit and some 22 inch chrome wheels. This is, and I hesitate to use the word, a "Boutique" 911, in my mind at least, they are up there with Ruf already, a name that for me conjurers up a similar, but distinct image.
As for all the lottery stuff, it does remain a dream for most of the worlds petrolheads, but for the rest of us there is no reason why we cant try to emulate a little bit of that ethos in our own small way, there are guys already doing it, check in Readers cars on here and also on Retro rides or the build sections of any number of forums or magazines. It doesn't have to be a 911, a £1500 E30, a 944, Capri or even a Volvo, the recipe is the same, subtle aesthetic improvements, considered and complimentary modifications, attention to detail, usability and superb workmanship, not quite the same but short of $500,000, for a lot less there is no reason you cant do it, plus you get the satisfaction of having done it yourself.
Of course the debate has to be about price. Watching the video, I came to realize that it is barely a Porsche that is in issue, and if Singer's 'best of the best' idea rings true, then really comparing this to a modified or freshened 911 isn't the story. I found myself asking what it would cost to go have a car made from scratch, with this sort of design and detail in it. Granted, Porsche supplies the chassis and the case, but everything else seems quite bespoke: wheels, interior, engine bits, etc. From the video I imagine that all of that quality is reflected in an almost ingot-like solidity in every part and action. The car must feel like one indestructible 1200kg whole, with which you become one upon taking that lovely seat and strapping in.
It would be nice to take $300,000 and compare the several cars that everyone is listing as alternatives to the Singer. I have trouble thinking that any would reflect this sort of solidity and essential driving experience. At least I hope they wouldn't, as I love the project.
It would be nice to take $300,000 and compare the several cars that everyone is listing as alternatives to the Singer. I have trouble thinking that any would reflect this sort of solidity and essential driving experience. At least I hope they wouldn't, as I love the project.
It's not about price because you have nothing to compare it to
Price only matters for 2 reasons
1 - can you afford it
It's a hand-made item of exquisite detail - it's expensive - if you have to ask, and all that
2 - if there's another product like it
and there's nothing remotely close
Stop getting hung-up on money as the defining issue of everything - there's FAR more to life...
Price only matters for 2 reasons
1 - can you afford it
It's a hand-made item of exquisite detail - it's expensive - if you have to ask, and all that
2 - if there's another product like it
and there's nothing remotely close
Stop getting hung-up on money as the defining issue of everything - there's FAR more to life...
I think for me, the appeal of this is that it doesn't, to the uninitiated look like it costs similar/more than a new Aventador, I suspect that if you set up a stall in an average supermarket car park and showed the punters the Singer 911 and a new Audi A5 2.0 Tdi in a good colour (Misano Red) with big wheels on and asked them which was worth more, or which they would take for free, I bet a lot would go for the Audi, event though Porsche > Audi in the collective consciousness, "but it's and old one, innit", maybe I am doing my countrymen a disservice and to be fair, spotting an obscure, bespoke, re imagined old Porsche 911 might be difficult but I think that very few people would think £200,000 worth when next to a shiny 35k Audi, they may prove me wrong but it is a highly hypothetical and unlikely scenario so I think I am safe ! plus some would take the Porsche as they know its a trick question and they could sell the 911 and buy two new Audis !
A very discreet way to spend a lot of money on something very special without looking like a pillock, you could leave this in a supermarket car park, it would get looks but not crowds round it.
Just that stuff like this exists is nice to know.
A very discreet way to spend a lot of money on something very special without looking like a pillock, you could leave this in a supermarket car park, it would get looks but not crowds round it.
Just that stuff like this exists is nice to know.
[quote=405dogvan]It's not about price because you have nothing to compare it to
I think this was my point: that comparing it to other cars would show the Singer to be a singular experience and one I would take over anything else.
It's not being 'hung up on money' to wonder if this is the way you would spend your £200,000 versus other alternatives, unless you're someone who simply never has to care about how you spend your money. Certainly, if I had £200,000 to spend on a car, I would shop it around.
This doesn't take anything away from the Singer, but it is an interesting part of the discussion for many of us. Other people's comparisons might find the Singer wanting; it's called a conversation. It's a good thing.
I think this was my point: that comparing it to other cars would show the Singer to be a singular experience and one I would take over anything else.
It's not being 'hung up on money' to wonder if this is the way you would spend your £200,000 versus other alternatives, unless you're someone who simply never has to care about how you spend your money. Certainly, if I had £200,000 to spend on a car, I would shop it around.
This doesn't take anything away from the Singer, but it is an interesting part of the discussion for many of us. Other people's comparisons might find the Singer wanting; it's called a conversation. It's a good thing.
I don't think it's even worth discussing the price of this car, as its "worth" is going to be more than it's actual cost to anyone in a position to buy it. You WANT this car, and for an amazing large number of people, that's enough, the amount of money it costs is irrelevant. I also suspect, that with this sort of car, being involved in its creation, and the specifying of trims, colours, specs etc make buying one of these even more special.
For me, i think actually the engine is a bit of a let down, you get used to the incredible response across the rev range of the modern GT3 motors, and that aircooled engine sounded just a bit flat and weasy in the mid range. Having said that, a water cooled engine would ruin the overall package and feel of the thing, so i guess that's what you're gonna get.
Assuming the guy was always talking in dollars, a full MIL spec wiring loom for 30k US, is about right at low volumes. It's quite easy to spend £300 on a single small connector pair, contacts, and boots when shopping for the best MIL spec connectors from Deutsch etc
For me, i think actually the engine is a bit of a let down, you get used to the incredible response across the rev range of the modern GT3 motors, and that aircooled engine sounded just a bit flat and weasy in the mid range. Having said that, a water cooled engine would ruin the overall package and feel of the thing, so i guess that's what you're gonna get.
Assuming the guy was always talking in dollars, a full MIL spec wiring loom for 30k US, is about right at low volumes. It's quite easy to spend £300 on a single small connector pair, contacts, and boots when shopping for the best MIL spec connectors from Deutsch etc
tosh.brice said:
I have read a lot about the Singer, downloaded all the photos and reformatted many as desk-tops; and watched whatever footage I could find on the net; but until now the only road test I found (very brief) suggested that it was all show and did not go round corners. Glad to hear all that has been sorted (if it was ever true), and who could possibly be better to find out and tell us about it than Chris?!
Wonderful video about a wonderful car in the perfect setting.
Time to put an 11 on the P.H. O'Meter ...
Dickie Meaden (in Dec '12 EVO) tested one; road and track. He put the driving experience right at the very top of the pile. He said "this car oozes the right stuff with the same assurance as any Pagani Zonda or McLaren F1......When the time finally comes to leave this heartbreakingly wonderful machine behind, I feel something akin to grief".Wonderful video about a wonderful car in the perfect setting.
Time to put an 11 on the P.H. O'Meter ...
Great video Chris. Just the inspiration I needed to get into the freezing garage to work on my own 911T/3.2 project.
SS7
NGK210 said:
Excellent. Thank you for a great vid about my dream car.
Oh, and just one wee question: Why's the company called Singer?
After this chap: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_singerOh, and just one wee question: Why's the company called Singer?
Edited by NGK210 on Thursday 17th January 07:12
(Not many people appear to know this).
SS7
Davey S2 said:
stephen300o said:
£300.000 ish
£30.000 ish
£500 ish£30.000 ish
£500K ish
Not quite the same though are they?
In cars, as with watches, its usually the bits you can't see where the difference is.
The cars have radically different functionality tho - one is a brand-new product tuned to perfection - the other is an old car which will feel that and need the resulting attentions.
I have no problem with things like the Singer because I can see where the money has gone - it might be a bonkers way to spend it but it's not unnecessary garnish.
I do have problems with things like diamond-encrusted lipsticks and silver Marmite jar lids - they don't add anything other than a layer of "look at me I've got money to waste".
The watches are tricky - sometimes you can see the astonishing mechanisms and other things but it's still hard to see where £500K could go into a watch with it being made of things it doesn't NEED to be made of.
and, of course, a £3.99 digital from a garage actually does the same job...
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